How does a QB deficient team pass on Mahomes/Watson

[SoTier]

4 hours ago, simpleman said:

Wrong answer. KC rated him not only 1st round, but worth 2 1st rounds, and a third. Just shows what competent scouting and drafting for QBs and offensive players looks like . Wish the Bills had that level of competence.

 

 

I have no doubt that Andy Reid could barely contain himself when the Bills called looking to trade picks with KC with Mahomes still available.   Once more,  AR fleeces the Bills ... or more precisely, the Bills go to AR asking to be fleeced.  2009 or 2017, same old Bills incompetence just different clowns.

[2003Contenders]

Mahomes' physical talent was not in question. The questions surrounding him had to do with his ability to make the leap from the college spread-style in which he had exclusively played to an NFL pro style offense. 

 

Mahomes landed in an ideal situation:

-- KC had a professional, established starter in Alex  Smith, so there was no rush to get Mahomes on the field

-- Say what you will about Andy Reid, but the man knows how to evaluate and groom young QBs

-- The Chiefs have been a perennial playoff caliber team for years with a winning mind-set

-- Associated with the above, the Chiefs have a strong supporting cast, including plenty of skill position players and a pretty good OL

 

Compare all of those factors to those surrounding Josh Allen's introduction to the NFL.

 

And, for those wishing that the Bills had stayed put at 10 and taken Mahomes (or Watson, who looked worse than Allen when we played them in Houston a couple of weeks ago), the reality of the situation is that the team was never planning to take a QB there. The word was that they guy they were targeting at 10 was Lattimore.

[frostbitmic]

Someone should be fired over this. ?

[Kevin1778]

Watson and Mahomes would do NOTHING on the Bills. They have elite players in Kansas City and on the Texans. KC has the best weapons in the NFL and the best Offensive Line. The Texans have arguably the best receiver in the NFL. Nobody is better than Hopkins.  He had 1400 yards and 13TD last year without Watson for most of the year.  Derek Anderson would be an all-pro on either team.

 

Yes Mahomes and Watson are very good Quarterbacks, but they would be no better than Allen. You need a line and receivers. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Kevin1778

[TigerJ]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.  In hindsight we can see that Mahomes and Watson are wonderfully talented QBs who are likely to have long and successful careers.  Coming out of college, Mahomes played in a very unconventional college offense, and there was doubt in many corners that his game would translate to the NFL.  He never lined up under center.  

Watson was a leader for his Clemson team, but was seen more as a running QB than an NFL QB.  His arm strength is somewhat lacking and he had an unconventional delivery.  I thought both of them were worth taking in the first round.  KC was wise in retrospect, but they also had far fewer holes on their team when they traded up with Buffalo to get him.  I'm not even sure Mahomes would have had the same success coming to Buffalo that he's had this year in KC.  In Buffalo there would have been pressure to start right away and he would not have had nearly the supporting cast he has in KC.  KC was able to give him a full year on the bench to learn a pretty complex offensive system.

[bobobonators]

Watson and Mahomes landed on teams who have offensive-minded HC, instantly creating a better situation for them. 

 

Allen landed on a team with a defensive minded HC, and an OC that will never be heard from again once hes fired. Its a crap situation. 

 

Reid and Mahomes. 

O’Brien and watson

Pederson and Wentz

McVay and Goff

 

Those are great spots for young talented QB’s to land in. 

 

 

[Real McClappy]

14 hours ago, Success said:

People forget how both QBs were talked about in the draft.  It’s always such a crapshoot.  Threads like this are well meaning, but pure hindsight.

 

Watson was all about the velocity.  There were probably dozens of threads talking about his velocity.  I think there was some stat that no one had succeeded in the nfl with his velocity.

 

And Mahones was considered as much of a project as Allen.  Most of this board would have gone bananas if we picked him in the first.

 

I think they were smart to wait for the draft that was considered the most deep at QB in years.  And they made their move - picked a guy that a few had projected as the top pick.  

Your right this is kind of hindsight to a degree, but many, many posters from this forum alone were calling out to draft Mahomes, Trub or Watson as we needed a QB then and the talent was in our pocket at number 10. The ones that were against it and supporting the decision were saying "next years* QB class is better which is fine as it's still to be determined. Currently right now the 2017 draft class is better and we passed. There is zero we can do now but think what could have been? It sucks but is reality at this point. 

 

Time will tell

 

But so far

 

2017

Mitch Trubisky

Deshaun Watson

Patrick Mahomes

C.J Beathard

 

draft class is  much greater than 

 

2018

Baker Mayfield

Sam Darnold

Josh Allen

Josh Rosen

 

10 hours ago, BBills88 said:

If everyone in the league know Mahomes & Watson were going to be good. They would have ended up in Cleveland & Chicago, San Francisco. Nobody had Mahomes as a 1st round QB or talent. 

100% false

Edited October 27, 2018 by Real McCoy

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, Niagara Dude said:

End of the day Pegula should hire experienced head of football operations to watch over GM and head coach,  Beane has made reckless decisions.  Trading young players Darby and Sammy for second and 3rd rounders was stupid.  You trade older players not younger players,  then passing on Mahomes deserves firing just for that stupid mone,  include the point that Allen looks like bust.

 

Allen did all that running around in college because he is could not make plays passing from the pocket,  i say at very least Beane should be fired.  Like is anyone going to agree with trading Sammy for a second and then giving up 3rd for loser Benjamin.  With Beane we are not rebuilding and talent level is getting worst with him making decisions.

Beane was not here then.   It is generally deemed a bad decision to fire the GM before the draft, the whole scouting department and Whaley knew they were getting fired.   Hard to imagine they really put their all into it.

[Real McClappy]

1 hour ago, ProcessTruster said:

whaley

Wanted Watson

[JMF2006]

9 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

So......is the OP suggesting someone should be fired over Mahomes?  (Asking for a friend)

 

Is he a long time caller and short time listener?

[oldmanfan]

15 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Your right this is kind of hindsight to a degree, but many, many posters from this forum alone were calling out to draft Mahomes, Trub or Watson as we needed a QB then and the talent was in our pocket at number 10. The ones that were against it and supporting the decision were saying "next years* QB class is better which is fine as it's still to be determined. Currently right now the 2017 draft class is better and we passed. There is zero we can do know but think what could have been which sucks but is reality at this point. 

 

Time will tell

 

But so far

 

2017

Mitch Trubisky

Deshaun Watson

Patrick Mahomes

C.J Beathard

 

draft class is  much greater than 

 

2018

Baker Mayfield

Sam Darnold

Josh Allen

Josh Rosen

 

100% false

That might just be because 2017 is a year more experience that 2018.

[C.Biscuit97]

Because Josh Allen is tall

[Real McClappy]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

That might just be because 2017 is a year more experience that 2018.

Agreed, will need a couple more years to evaluate.

However, there is no denying the 2017 class is/was much stronger than what was said non-stop that is was a poor QB class. 

[Luka]

Pretty simple. They weren't going to get stuck with another Whaley QB after the EJ debacle. Time will tell if that was a good or bad choice. But the logic behind it is sound.

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

Agreed, will need a couple more years to evaluate.

However, there is no denying the 2017 class is/was much stronger than what was said non-stop that is was a poor QB class. 

So if it's going to take a couple years to evaluate, your statement that one class is stronger has no meaning.

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

So, how is this move any different than all the other times the Bills have done this exact same thing during the drought????   You're one of those McDermott cheerleaders who has constantly defended his boneheaded plays as "building the team the right way", so how is constantly allowing good/excellent young veterans to walk away in free agency or trading them away for peanuts with the excuse "we can't afford to pay them" or "they wouldn't have re-signed anyways" or "they didn't want to be here" and then using high draft picks to replace them NOT the same thing in 2017 as it was in 2004????  Because McDermott did it instead of Donahoe or Nix or Whaley???

• 1999 Bills draft Antoine Winfield, DB, in the first round.  In 2004, he signs with Minnesota where he plays 9 more seasons and makes the Pro Bowl 3 times.
• 2001 Bills draft Nate Clements, DB, in the first round.  In 2007, after making the Pro Bowl with the Bills, he signs with San Francisco and later with the Cincinatti Bengals.
• 2003 Bills draft Willis McGahee, RB, in the first round.  In 2007, the Bills traded him to the Ravens for a third round pick that they turned into Tentative Trent Edwards while McGahee, who ran for 1200+ yards for the Bills in 2005, ran for 1200+ yards again for Baltimore, and later in his career, ran for 1200+ yards for Denver.  He made the Pro Bowl for both Baltimore and Denver, both of which he helped to the playoffs.
• 2004 Bills sign UDFA TE Jason Peters.  As a TE, Peters was a JAG at best.  As an OT, he was one of the best of his era.  He made the Pro Bowl twice with the Bills before he got in a contract dispute over renegotiating his contract to pay him what he was worth.  The Bills traded him to Philadelphia before the 2009 draft for a 2009 first (Eric Wood) and a fourth (Shawn Nelson).  Peters has made the Pro Bowl 7 more times with Philly and added 2 All Pro honors to his resume.  Except for 2012 when he missed the entire season with an Achilles tear and 2017 when he missed half the year with a knee injury, he's been a Pro Bowler.  He's STILL the anchor of the Eagles OL at  almost 37 years old.
• 2007 Bills draft Marshawn Lynch, RB, in the first round.  Lynch was easily the best RB the Bills had since Thurman Thomas, and probably the best power runner they had since OJ Simpson.  The Bills traded him to Seattle in 2010 for a fourth round draft pick in 2011 and a fifth rounder in 2012 which they turned into the forgettable JAGs Chris Hairston and Tank Carder.  Oh, yeah, and Lynch went on to more Pro Bowls, All Pro honors, and a Super Bowl trophy with Seattle before likely finishing his career in Oakland.
• 2010 Bills draft CJ Spiller, RB, in the first round.  He lacked the size and build to be an every down back but he had speed ... and would cost much less than Lynch if they re-signed Lynch rather than trade him.
• 2012 Bills draft Stephon Gilmore, DB, in the first round.   He was the Bills starting CB for his five seasons here, making the Pro Bowl in 2016.  The Bills let him walk in FA where the Patriots signed him and he's become a proverbial "lock down" corner for the AFC dominating Pats.
• 2012 Bills draft Cordy Glenn, OT, in the second round, finally getting around to replacing Peters.  Glenn was one of the top LTs in the NFL, and Whaley correctly re-signed him to a market rate contract.  In 2017, McDermott drafted Dion Dawkins in the 2nd round, and since he played decently at LT when Glenn was injured, Beane traded Glenn to Cincy for their 2018 first round pick (which was subsequently traded to get Allen) and a fifth round that became Ray-Ray McCloud.
• 2013 Bills draft Robert Woods, WR, in the second round, and Marquise Goodwin, WR, in the third.  Woods was an excellent WR but the Bills supposedly didn't even offer him a contract, so the Rams did.  Goodwin went to San Francisco in FA as well.  Both tore up the league in 2017 while the Bills replaced them with JAGs and bottom feeder WRs -- and needing to spend draft picks higher than Day 3 for NFL caliber WRs.
• 2014 Bills draft Sammy Watkins, WR, in the first round, trading away their 2015 first round pick to trade up to #4.  Watkins had 1000+ yards in 2015 and nearly 1000 yards in 2014 as a rookie.  He still had nearly 500 yards in 2016 in despite missing half the season with injury.  Beane traded Watkins to LA for a second round pick (used to get Allen) and EJ Gaines, CB, in July 2017.

How, exactly, is trading up for a raw "project" QB prospect in the first round in a supposedly great QB class in 2018 all that different from trading up in a supposedly great QB class in 2004???  Except that your heroes McDermott and Beane spent a lot more to get Allen than Donahoe spent to get Losman?   Of course, Donahoe wouldn't have traded up if Roethlisberger had been available when the Bills drafted in 2004.  I doubt he'd have passed on Mahomes or Watson if he'd been GM in 2017 either.  Whatever you  say about Donahoe, he knew talent, especially offensive talent, as did Whaley,  unlike the Bills current clown show leadership.

For one thing they are different regimes making the call.  When are you going to get that through your head?

[Kevin1778]

5 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

But saw lots of value in Nate Peterman and Josh Allen.

 

They'll pay for that colossal error in judgment with their jobs, after next season.

 

 

 

Nathan Peteman was a 5th round draft pick given a very small contract. How is that  seeing "lots of value" in a player. And Josh Allen has looked exactly like they expected. He won games against the Vikings and Titans. He was 2-2 in games he started and finished. That isn't too bad. He has all the tools you need and looked exactly like all rookie quarterbacks. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Kevin1778

[Real McClappy]

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

So if it's going to take a couple years to evaluate, your statement that one class is stronger has no meaning.

My statement is as of today the 2017 QB draft class is better than the 2018 class which is true. 

 

I'm agreeing with you that 2018 QB's deserve more time to fairly evaluate between the 2 classes but that doesn't change my current assessment above. 

 

I don't see the 2017 class falling off the cliff. I personally wanted the Bills to draft Watson or Mahomes that year. The only reality is we have Josh Allen whom I hope turns into the best QB the draft has seen in 10 years.  Time will tell all, If Allen flops this topic will come up non-stop from fans for years.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Real McCoy

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

My statement is as of today the 2017 QB draft class is better than the 2018 class which is true. 

 

I'm agreeing with you that 2018 QB's deserve more time to fairly evaluate between the 2 classes but that doesn't change my current assessment above. 

 

I don't see the 2017 class falling off the cliff. I personally wanted the Bills to draft Watson or Mahomes that year. The only reality is we have Josh Allen whom I hope turns into the best QB the draft has seen in 10 years.  Time will tell all, If Allen flops this topic will come up non-stop from fans for years.

I would have liked Watson, said so at the time.  Mahomes had a lot of questions regarding footwork and ability to adapt to the pro game.  

[longtimebillsfan]

8 hours ago, CookieG said:

lol...welp...when I was growing up, it was during the Lamonica era in Oakland.  In those days, the Raiders were really the Raiders, the badasses of the AFl/AFC. Not only was it pre-Interwebia, but it was pre-cable. The Raiders were on TV a lot.

 

and from my childhood memories, whenever they were on, my father, an uncle, a neighbor or whatever grown ups were in the room, someone would remark, "Why'd we ever trade that guy?" Then the discussion would begin. 

 

And that was years after he was traded, and pretty much went on as long as he was their QB. I don't suspect it was different from other Buffalo area households.

 

Unless Allen becomes the stud he's supposed to be, or until Mahomes does an RGIII, expect it to continue.

 

Watching a guy you passed on become Kurt Warner before your eyes isn't easy to watch...especially when the consensus was that an upgrade from Tyrod was priority one.

 

I mean, damn...a few weeks ago, someone started the discussion about who was really responsible for drafting EJ Manuel, Buddy or Whaley? That was 5 years ago, when the alternative was...um.? 

 

This has been 7 games..I don't know why anyone would think people would remain silent.

This brings back painful memories of the late 60's  when the Bills went 1-13 and wound up selecting OJ as the #1 pick in the draft.  I remembering watching the last game of the year.   It was against the equally bad Dolphins.   The Bills almost won the game and almost lost the #1 pick to the fish.  Can you imagine if OJ had played most of his career in Miami? 

[Rebel101]

10 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

So......is the OP suggesting someone should be fired over Mahomes?  (Asking for a friend)

No I don’t think anyone should be fired McDermott should be given time. I was just trying to have a discussion about why people thought he didn’t pick one. What do people think were the reasons and factors that made McDermott do what he did. I know there has been a lot of threads but none really discussed the actual reason behind why McDermott did what he did. And do people think he is just bad a evaluating offensive talent or was he unsure of his abilities as an evaluator? Or did he really just want to completely tear down a team for the hell of it