How does a QB deficient team pass on Mahomes/Watson

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Do you think this makes any sense by any stretch of the imagination?

 

John will rationalise most Bills decisions. 

[Shaw66]

14 hours ago, CookieG said:

lol...welp...when I was growing up, it was during the Lamonica era in Oakland.  In those days, the Raiders were really the Raiders, the badasses of the AFl/AFC. Not only was it pre-Interwebia, but it was pre-cable. The Raiders were on TV a lot.

 

and from my childhood memories, whenever they were on, my father, an uncle, a neighbor or whatever grown ups were in the room, someone would remark, "Why'd we ever trade that guy?" Then the discussion would begin. 

 

And that was years after he was traded, and pretty much went on as long as he was their QB. I don't suspect it was different from other Buffalo area households.

 

Unless Allen becomes the stud he's supposed to be, or until Mahomes does an RGIII, expect it to continue.

 

Watching a guy you passed on become Kurt Warner before your eyes isn't easy to watch...especially when the consensus was that an upgrade from Tyrod was priority one.

 

I mean, damn...a few weeks ago, someone started the discussion about who was really responsible for drafting EJ Manuel, Buddy or Whaley? That was 5 years ago, when the alternative was...um.? 

 

This has been 7 games..I don't know why anyone would think people would remain silent.

Oh, yeah, the Lamonica angst went on for years and years.   

 

On the other hand, something that was easily forgotten in those days was that the Bills acquired Jack Kemp when the Chargers screwed something up on the waiver rules, and Kemp proceed to beat the Chargers for two successive AFL championships.   Every team has these stories, except the Patriots, whose nearly 20-year run has made the fans forget all of the earlier screw ups.  

 

These decisions are hard.  In the case of Mahomes and Watson, I can only speculate, but there are reasons that seem plausible.   First, as others have said, McDermott had good reason not to trust Whaley's judgment.  As for Watson, there were plenty of people concerned that he was the next EJ Manuel.   Yes, you could point to things that looked different about him, but when you're living with the consequences of choosing EJ, as McD was, I can understood not wanting to make that mistake again.  (And Whaley already had drunk the Clemson kool-aid once with Watkins, so that probably made McD a little reluctant if Whaley was now selling Watson.)   As for Mahomes, he was coming from a school that hadn't turned out any  good QBs.  It HAD turned out receivers like Crabtree, Welker and Amendola.  Texas Tech had an offense that seemed to work with scheme, flashy receivers and a good athlete at QB.  So there was a reason to be suspicious.  

 

Given that, McD probably looked at the 2018 class and thought "let me get my feet wet first, let's get my kind of GM in here and then we'll figure out the QB problem."  

 

Finally, I'll say this.  Mahomes looks great.  So does Watson.  I think Allen looks great.   Mahomes has an outstanding head coach, one of the best in any era.  He also has outstanding talent around him.  Watson has a good coach and some really good talent around him (although Fuller just went down).  I'd love to have either of the other two, but I'm not unhappy with the man the Bills have at QB.  And I think Allen playing on either of those other teams would have been having real success.  

[BananaB]

What’s done is done. I really don’t think Mahomes would have the same success here with KB and Zay. Same can be said for Watson who is playing with the best WR in the game. Not sure why people dwell on this ***** so much. Every team is different, every player is different.  Those guys are lucky to be drafted to teams that have good supporting cast

[Bing Bong]

4 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

miss Thad. He wasn't good, but that game he played in New Orleans where he took the shot to the ribs. He gave it everything.

I miss the hell out of Thad. Would kill to have 2013 Thad on this roster backing up when all hell breaks loose

[jahnyc]

A few quick points:

 

1.  I don't agree with the "would not develop here" comments.  It is up to the front office and coaching staff to make sure that there is an environment in which a drafted QB can develop and thrive (including having a back-up veteran QB mentor, a better o-line and WRs, and an experienced QB coach).  I continue to be dismayed at the lack of attention paid by the front office and coaching staff to do this when the plan all along was to trade up and take QB with a very early pick in the first round.  They have shown a complete lack of competency, and signing Anderson, after Allen was injured, is not enough to fix it.  

 

2.  It cost us a lot to move up and draft Allen.  Taking Mahomes would have started the process of developing a QB one year earlier and would have allowed us to keep valuable draft capital that this team desperately needed.  I get it that hindsight is 20-20, but I am tired of the excuses, and our front office has to be judged on their successes and misses.  We have missed too many times over the past number of years.

 

3.  As other posters have suggested, we do need a head/president of football operations.  I am not sure McBeane has shown the necessary competency and abilities to handle what has become a huge job to rebuild the roster.  I continue to be stumped as to why the Pegulas gave so much power to McDermott upon his hiring.  He had never been a HC or acted in a player personnel capacity.  They should have hired a GM with experience as a GM and then let the GM pick a coach.  As is typical with us, this process was done the opposite way it is usually done and we are left paying the price.

Edited October 27, 2018 by jahnyc

[billsfan_34]

18 hours ago, NoSaint said:

I always kind of assumed McD wanted a more polished guy.

 

then we took the least polished guy of either draft (you know, of the viable ones... I’m talking top picks)

Aint that a bummer?

Edited October 27, 2018 by billsfan_34

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

John will rationalise most Bills decisions. 

He will but dontcha love him?

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Bill from NYC said:

He will but dontcha love him?

 

I do. TBD would be a poorer place without him. 

[Fadingpain]

2 hours ago, RosenNOTchosen1 said:

Fans like this seem to be just looking for excuses to make themselves feel better. 

 

"Hindsight is a wonderful thing"

"Mahomes and Watson wouldn't be good in Buffalo anyway" blah blah blah.

 

I guess the Bills organization can literally do no wrong with some fans.

You have to remember that all Bills fans, basically, are in some stage of the grieving process.

We all love the team and want them to succeed badly.  No one doubts that.  Yet they have had very little success over their entire history, and they have been average to terrible for the entire 21st century.

 

We're all grieving.  A lot of fans have not made it out of the first stage: denial.  It's what allows us to survive a loss in our lives.  Most of this message board is in denial, IMO.  There was a sizable group here, for example, that defended Doug Whaley up until the end of his tenure in Buffalo, despite him being a thoroughly terrible GM.  A sizable contingent here refused to see that EJ Manuel is/was horrible.  Many still think Tyrod is a good QB and we were dumb to get rid of him.

 

It's all denial.  

 

The latest manifestation of this around here is Josh Allen.  Posters are starting threads declaring him to be a star on the rise.  Many have already declared him our next great franchise QB, after Jim Kelly.  In reality, he has always been a high risk, long shot project, and he is still exhibiting all the traits that made him that; he has shown nothing to suggest he'll be a good QB in the NFL.  At least not yet.  And yet folks are convinced he's "the one".  

 

It's denial.

 

 

[stuvian]

14 hours ago, mattynh said:

Listened to Bruce Arian’s today. He said the cardinals wanted mahomes or Watson and both got picked just before them.   He said he may still be coaching if it had worked out.   Our guys saw no value in them.  

 

not true. There's no proof that our organization saw no value in these players. We had hired McDermott but not Beane at the time of this draft. terry and Kim didn't want a franchise QB being picked until the new organization under Beane was fully formed. It was all about timing.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

20 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

I just don’t understand how this happened. I know I am beating a dead horse. But honestly I thought drafts are about best player available/ filling a team need at the same time. Is it really possible that McDermott didn’t think either were NFL caliber players? I just don’t see how if he thought they were franchise QBs how he could pass on either. The Chiefs has a starting QB and traded up. This really makes me question his talent evaluation on offense. And makes me worry about Josh Allen. Who basically came out rawer and way less accomplished then either QB he passed on. Has he ever been asked this question? And if so, what was his answer? Is his only excuse is he didn’t have a GM? I mean if he did see them as franchise QBs how could you pass on adding the corner stone of your team for years to come? Not making that pick forces us to waste a lot of future picks, and is the reason we are in a complete rebuild. Getting Mahomes/Watson that year changes everything. We’d still have Glenn and Dawkins which together gives our OLine a great start.  Would have been able to fill the middle in FA and draft. And used the 2018 offseason to offense and a few defense through the draft. This was a huge blunder by McDermott and is the reason we are in a complete tear down and build process. I feel like McBeane did this to guarantee their jobs for as many years as possible. I say this “PROCESS” gives them a minimum of 4 years of a having guaranteed job

 

So many teams have swung and missed on QB's, it's the hardest position in football to get right, when teams do they're genius' and when they don't it's always hindsight to lay blame,. How could the Bills have passed on Russell Wilson, Patrick Mahommes, Deshaun Watson, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers and countless others? Besides the obvious fact of not having a GM made it next to impossible to sign a QB, I doubt any respectable GM would have come here with a QB that the HC just drafted even Beane for that matter. I don't think I've ever heard or scene a scenario like that but I'm not sure. The second opinion of mine would be that Mcdermott worked out the QB prospects and didn't think they fit here for whatever reason, just my 2 pennies.

[mannc]

45 minutes ago, stuvian said:

 

terry and Kim didn't want a franchise QB being picked until the new organization under Beane was fully formed. It was all about timing.

Because, what could be worse than picking a franchise QB too soon?

Edited October 27, 2018 by mannc

[White Linen]

20 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

I just don’t understand how this happened. I know I am beating a dead horse. But honestly I thought drafts are about best player available/ filling a team need at the same time. Is it really possible that McDermott didn’t think either were NFL caliber players? I just don’t see how if he thought they were franchise QBs how he could pass on either. The Chiefs has a starting QB and traded up. This really makes me question his talent evaluation on offense. And makes me worry about Josh Allen. Who basically came out rawer and way less accomplished then either QB he passed on. Has he ever been asked this question? And if so, what was his answer? Is his only excuse is he didn’t have a GM? I mean if he did see them as franchise QBs how could you pass on adding the corner stone of your team for years to come? Not making that pick forces us to waste a lot of future picks, and is the reason we are in a complete rebuild. Getting Mahomes/Watson that year changes everything. We’d still have Glenn and Dawkins which together gives our OLine a great start.  Would have been able to fill the middle in FA and draft. And used the 2018 offseason to offense and a few defense through the draft. This was a huge blunder by McDermott and is the reason we are in a complete tear down and build process. I feel like McBeane did this to guarantee their jobs for as many years as possible. I say this “PROCESS” gives them a minimum of 4 years of a having guaranteed job

 

Can you not understand very simple things?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

16 hours ago, simpleman said:

Wrong answer. KC rated him not only 1st round, but worth 2 1st rounds, and a third. Just shows what competent scouting and drafting for QBs and offensive players looks like . Wish the Bills had that level of competence.

 

 

LOL Just to put things in perspective this same competent scouting that you're talking about, while likely not the same identical top to bottom front office and coaching staff, the guy in the middle of all that Andy Reid during his years with the Eagles drafted Kevin Kolb in the 1st round, AJ Feeley, Andy Hall and Donovan McNabb (got one right)  So is he really so s smart or just got lucky.

 

And lets give a little more time than 6 games too.  Dak Prescott was looking amazing the first 10 games of his rookie year.  Since then looks OK, but not great.

[stuvian]

1 hour ago, mannc said:

Because, what could be worse than picking a franchise QB too soon?

subjecting him to a dysfunctional organization

[Real McClappy]

2 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

You have to remember that all Bills fans, basically, are in some stage of the grieving process.

We all love the team and want them to succeed badly.  No one doubts that.  Yet they have had very little success over their entire history, and they have been average to terrible for the entire 21st century.

 

We're all grieving.  A lot of fans have not made it out of the first stage: denial.  It's what allows us to survive a loss in our lives.  Most of this message board is in denial, IMO.  There was a sizable group here, for example, that defended Doug Whaley up until the end of his tenure in Buffalo, despite him being a thoroughly terrible GM.  A sizable contingent here refused to see that EJ Manuel is/was horrible.  Many still think Tyrod is a good QB and we were dumb to get rid of him.

 

It's all denial.  

 

The latest manifestation of this around here is Josh Allen.  Posters are starting threads declaring him to be a star on the rise.  Many have already declared him our next great franchise QB, after Jim Kelly.  In reality, he has always been a high risk, long shot project, and he is still exhibiting all the traits that made him that; he has shown nothing to suggest he'll be a good QB in the NFL.  At least not yet.  And yet folks are convinced he's "the one".  

 

It's denial.

 

 

Should have stopped at bolded. 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Real McCoy

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

You have to remember that all Bills fans, basically, are in some stage of the grieving process.

We all love the team and want them to succeed badly.  No one doubts that.  Yet they have had very little success over their entire history, and they have been average to terrible for the entire 21st century.

 

We're all grieving.  A lot of fans have not made it out of the first stage: denial.  It's what allows us to survive a loss in our lives.  Most of this message board is in denial, IMO.  There was a sizable group here, for example, that defended Doug Whaley up until the end of his tenure in Buffalo, despite him being a thoroughly terrible GM.  A sizable contingent here refused to see that EJ Manuel is/was horrible.  Many still think Tyrod is a good QB and we were dumb to get rid of him.

 

It's all denial.  

 

The latest manifestation of this around here is Josh Allen.  Posters are starting threads declaring him to be a star on the rise.  Many have already declared him our next great franchise QB, after Jim Kelly.  In reality, he has always been a high risk, long shot project, and he is still exhibiting all the traits that made him that; he has shown nothing to suggest he'll be a good QB in the NFL.  At least not yet.  And yet folks are convinced he's "the one".  

 

It's denial.

 

 

WHO exactly is saying this?  Jesus

[atlbillsfan1975]

28 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

WHO exactly is saying this?  Jesus

I will say I think he can be the next great quarterback. He has all the tools. Allen has the size. I personally think he has what it takes to be successful. He just needs good coaching.

 

as for Mahomes and Watson, Watson was the one I thought could be a solid starting quarterback based off what he did in the second NC game against Bama. Saban to me is like Bill Belichick. If you give Saban enough time he will more times than not figure out how to beat you. The fact that Watson performed so well against Sabans team the second time showed me something. 

Personally I think Watson has the ability to be a better Russell Wilson ultimate game manager who can make a couple plays at the right time. 

Mahomes is a mystery. He has the greatest play caller as a HC and a ton of talent. The exact opposite what Allen has so far.

[Hebert19]

Hindsight 2020.  Same reason a qb needy team takes Bryce Petty...or a needy one signs Brock O.  

 

You never know.

[longtimebillsfan]

11 hours ago, CookieG said:

I just hope this isn't my generational Lamonica moment.

 

As far as people talking about hindsight, meh. I just know that after the 1st round was over, when my son called to pick him up all he said was "so how pissed off are you"?  IT was the LSU bowl game in his soph. year that sold me. More importantly, the teams that wanted him aren't seeing it as hindsight. I didn't realize Arians wanted him. But NO wanted him as successor to Brees. That's why the Chiefs traded up for him. Teams that knew QBs wanted him.

 

I live in Chiefs country (which is brutal right now), and watching the post draft PC's, I became certain that we made a bad decision. 

The Chiefs weren't even looking for a QB when their draft process began. It started with a regional scout, who kept bugging higher ups to watch tape of him. it kept moving up to eventually Dorsey and Reid. By the end of the evals, they were sold on him, to a man. The common buzz word with him was "special". They weren't going to draft another QB that year, much less trade up for one.  Watching those, I was convinced, thinking "what did we just do here?"

 

Chiefs country is brutal right now. Its not fun to hear people say, "hey! Thanks for Mahomes!"  Damn, our  mailman was chiding me last Sat.

 

And its why I'm pulling for Allen now more than ever. If it ends up being a situation where they got Marino and we got Kelly, I won't complain. But if they got Marino and we got Todd Blackledge, its not going to be easy.  I don't want it to be my Lamonica moment.

 

 

 

 

 

Yep.   Just be the biggest Allen supporter on the planet.   Living in KC has got to be tough for you.  I feel your pain my friend.