I actually like Daboll!

[TroutDog]

I tend to defer to experts in this arena and, from what I’ve read, he is doing all that can possibly be done with this deck of cards. When broken down (on multiple sites but my go-to is The Athletic), you can see how he has tried to build around what he has and how he is molding the clay, so to speak. 

 

I am firmly in the camp that he deserves another year. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by TroutDog

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

I read here that the players on offense are historically bad, and yet when they get the lead those offensive players look pretty good at times. Bills fans saying its the QB until Barkley comes in and lights up a pretty good Jets defense.  

 

 

Doesn't that kind of prove it was the Quarterback? If someone as known mediocre as Barkley comes in and immediately moves the ball. Peterman sucked at an all time level, Anderson wants to be on the golf course, Josh has had some rookie up and down...  Barkley came in and suddenly the coordinator you think is bad had someone capable of moving the ball.

 

On the offensive line it has been okay pass blocking pretty much since week 2. That has never been the main problem. In the run game it is atrocious. Shady only averages 3.3 ypa and Chris Ivory who so many seem to think is some sort of answer only 3.5 ypa. The run blocking is bad, slightly improved with the worst run blocker of the 5 benched... but still bad. 

 

As for receivers, Zay had 1 good game. Benjamin one good catch, and the other 2 are new additions to the atrocious skill position players who were used early on in the season. 

 

When they have given Daboll semi competent QB play and at least a bit of speed at WR the offense has moved the ball. No shock there. Better talent = better production. 

[Boca BIlls]

4 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

My stance has softened a bit too. Although...

 

The thing is, this team looks like two different animals if they get behind in points vs getting a lead in a game. Against the Vikings, Titans, Jets and Jags the bills got the lead, held on and won those games.

 

The other games Ravens, Chargers, Packers, Texans, Colts, Patriots, Bears the got behind in points from the start and never caught up while losing those games. Even against the Patriots in which they held a 3 point lead for 3 quarters and the Bills just couldn't get anything going offensively.

 

I read here that the players on offense are historically bad, and yet when they get the lead those offensive players look pretty good at times. Bills fans saying its the QB until Barkley comes in and lights up a pretty good Jets defense. Bills fans saying its the offensive line and yet when they get the lead the sacks go down and the run game does better. Bills fans saying the receiver corps is bad and yet they looked pretty good with Barkley throwing to them. 

 

This last game Josh Allen made some big plays because of his talent, that throw to Foster just before he is engulfed by three Jag defenders. That 14 yard TD run by Allen and he would have had over 100 yards rushing if he didn't kneel it down at the end of the game for -2 yards.

 

The play calling in that Jags game looked good for the first quarter and fell off after that until the Allen run in the 4th. That was against the #5 defense so I'm not gonna complain too much. I'd just like to see more of that 1st touchdown series all game long and not just two or three series a game. The Bills did punt 7 times in that game. 

 

I also want to see this team win a game when they get behind in points and then not go into a panic passing mode to catch up. Run the normal game plan, move the chains and run the ball...score some points.  

 

 

Jet have a horrible defense...

[WideNine]

On 10/25/2018 at 12:18 AM, John from Riverside said:

Which is?

Shotgun - zone read option, but always run to the left. That way Josh can limit his reads to one half of the field and only the competent left side of the line has to perform. Anyone who is a slow-blinker lines up on the right.

 

And yes, I am just yanking everyone's chain.

 

Having spent a few years with Bama, I think Daboll knows how to dumb-down offensive plays to the talent he has if needed, but the goal should be that the offense can execute what they need to execute as part of their game plan to move the chains and score, take advantage of defensive mismatches, alignment gaps, and soft spots in the zones.

 

That being said I don't think he has overly complicated schemes - the Bills have found some gems with just FA castoffs or undrafted players but sometimes you just need better talent. I think you can find that jet sweep play we scored with in just about every high school playbook. Just bigger, faster, and more talented players executing it.

[JohnC]

Just about everyone agrees that the Bills lacked talent on offense from the OL to the receiving corps. And it is starkly evident that the play of the qb this year has been substandard. What game plan do you expect the OC and his staff to devise and on game day implement when the offense is grossly undermanned? What was telling is that when an experienced qb in Barkley was taking the snaps the offense looked like a real pro offense. Most people would concede that Barkley is at best a backup qb in this league. But because he knew how to run an offense and knew where to go with the ball the offense looked like a functioning offense. Even with an understaffed offense the units (OL & receivers) were noticeably elevated with simple competent qb play. 

 

I'm not pro or anti Daboll. But what I'm not going to do is lay the blame on him for the offensive struggles. What this franchise needs to do this offseason is focus on upgrading the offense. It's time to stop the blame and solution game with the churning of coaches. Constant changing of coaches doesn't solve the real problem of having to many inadequate players . Let's be more fair-minded and exercise some common sense by giving the OC a chance to work with players who are better than being less than marginal. 

[The Senator]

On 11/5/2018 at 1:02 PM, LeGOATski said:

So, I wonder if Daboll will be fired. Even though it's a rebuilding year, the offense is incompetent. Unprepared. Undisciplined. Uninspired.

 

If you consider this year as an initial test for the OC, he has failed so far. You can say he doesn't have enough talent to work with, but shouldn't a good OC at least run a competent offense with even entry-level NFL talent? Think of Chan Gailey for reference, getting decent production with below-average talent on most Sundays.

 

I'd bet they let Daboll ride out the year before firing him, since this year is basically a lost cause. Is it possible they'd start researching OC candidates now? Buffalo could be considered a good opportunity for an OC to make a name for himself. They have the cap space and commitment to improving the offense in 2019. They have a young talent at QB. They already have a good defense.

 

If the offense showed any competence to this point, this would certainly be a great argument for keeping Daboll and letting him work with the new talent in 2019. However, I don't think they should invest another year on Daboll, given what he's shown so far. He hasn't earned that opportunity. McDermott seemed to show frustration with the offense yesterday. He said during halftime that they should be able to make adjustments. I think he could be realizing that Daboll has been unable to make the necessary adjustments and is not ready to be a good OC.

 

Additional question to go along with this post: who do you consider to be a good OC candidate out there?

 

I'm looking at the college ranks again (shrugs shoulders; I know that's where Daboll just came from). Have you seen what Mike Norvell has been able to do in ASU and now in Memphis? He recently became the highest paid coach outside the power 5 conferences, but I bet he's able to get out of that contract if it means moving up to the NFL. He may have those aspirations.

 

How ‘bout Mike Leach?

[Nihilarian]

What my problem with Bills OC Daboll is, and the Bills QB coach is that both are very inexperienced in coaching rookie/inexperienced QBs. A QB coach who was never previously a QB coach but a WR assistant coach. How exactly that helps those two very inexperienced QBs at the start of the season with no veteran QB on the roster is a wonder to me.

 

Daboll has been calling offensive plays from day one like he has experienced veteran QBs behind center! What they weren't, were two QBs who knew how to read a defense and set protections. They weren't able to find the open receiver quickly and get the ball to them before the pass rush can get to them. This is why Barkley looked so good and Peterman, Allen not so much. 

 

Those first two games the Bills defense started slowly and allowed the team to get behind in points. What happened then... like so many other games the team got behind in... was a very pass happy offense that nearly got those inexperienced QBs killed. Lets not forget that this team is still 4-7 and not the other way around. 7 losses and 5 of them blowouts. 

 

The run game has been dominate at times usually when the team has the lead, Vikings game 38 rushes for 128 yards, 2 TDs. Titans 43 rushes for 144 yards, 1 TD. Jets game 46 rushes for 212 yards, 2 TDs. 

 

Those numbers rushing the ball look pretty darn good to me and two those three defenses aren't that bad, Vikes #3, Tenn #10. So it goes to prove a point that the talent on the line isn't historically bad. With Barkley at QB Jones had 93 yards, Foster had 105 so the receivers aren't historically bad either. 

 

When you have a play caller calling complex run plays with not so great players on the line it doesn't always go so well. Except for the times when the team had the lead the OC called far more pass plays then run plays to boot. 

 

When you have a play caller calling mid to deep pass patterns with some very inexperienced QBs...especially when the team gets behind in points so those young QBs are forced to carry the entire offense it doesn't always go so well. 

 

This last game against the Jags it was rookie QB Josh Allen with 99 yards rushing, 1 rushing TD who made some big plays. That deep bomb to Foster for a TD was also a big play by Allen as he was swarmed by three Jags defenders milliseconds after releasing that ball. 

 

While I do give credit to Daboll for calling that second series which resulted in five plays for a untouched TD run by McKenzie, which was brilliant. The Bills still had seven series which resulted in punts. I want to see a whole lot more of those second series type plays AND see the team not forget the run game and go pass happy when they get behind in points before I start heaping praise on the Bills offensive coaches. 

 

 

 

 

[3rdand12]

I am going to mention again. I liked Daboll coming in. and feel he was actually sought after by this FO for awhile.
 

 Give him some breathing room,  Those you whom have softened are likely correct as to how he is growing, and working with a difficult series of talents. Especially QB.
he is here to Coach Allen. if hat doesn't work then.. well we are all screwed again.

 Get behind them and wish them well.

 i sure hope an offseason together allows some growth for all concerned moving forward. Brian and Josh for starters.

[LeGOATski]

3 hours ago, The Senator said:

 

How ‘bout Mike Leach?

Not sure if you're serious, but I'll answer honestly. I don't like that suggestion. I'd rather have an up-and-comer.

 

Daboll's offense has looked better the last two games. The Jets' and Jags' Ds shouldn't be taken lightly, so I think it's notable that the offense had success against them. 

 

How long will that last? Did the WRs just not fit what Daboll was trying to do in the passing game? Was the injection of speed the key?

 

I don't like that Daboll called a sweep with Josh Allen 5 yards out from the EZ (and it looked like he broke his leg at first ?).

 

Daboll has been very hot and cold. As of right now, I wouldn't blame them if they decided to get rid of him or keep him. It's up in the air for me. The rest of the season with Josh Allen at the helm will be telling.

 

[ganesh]

The biggest gripe with Daboll is his inability to get Shady going.  A great RB is the best friend for a young QB.  This crap of putting everything on Josh's shoulder is way too much to ask the rookie.  Daboll should put Shady in space instead of trying to run between tackles all the time. At least they can use his ability to catch the ball and run...this is what NE does day in day out

[GunnerBill]

12 hours ago, JohnC said:

Just about everyone agrees that the Bills lacked talent on offense from the OL to the receiving corps. And it is starkly evident that the play of the qb this year has been substandard. What game plan do you expect the OC and his staff to devise and on game day implement when the offense is grossly undermanned? What was telling is that when an experienced qb in Barkley was taking the snaps the offense looked like a real pro offense. Most people would concede that Barkley is at best a backup qb in this league. But because he knew how to run an offense and knew where to go with the ball the offense looked like a functioning offense. Even with an understaffed offense the units (OL & receivers) were noticeably elevated with simple competent qb play. 

 

I'm not pro or anti Daboll. But what I'm not going to do is lay the blame on him for the offensive struggles. What this franchise needs to do this offseason is focus on upgrading the offense. It's time to stop the blame and solution game with the churning of coaches. Constant changing of coaches doesn't solve the real problem of having to many inadequate players . Let's be more fair-minded and exercise some common sense by giving the OC a chance to work with players who are better than being less than marginal. 

 

Completely agree with this. I don't know whether Daboll is good. I do know that I don't blame him for struggling with the lack of talent available.

[CLTbills]

I do too. I think he's been so limited in what he can call because our players (Peterman, Anderson) weren't capable of executing anything. Now with steady QB play, he's been able to really open it up. I've seen some great stuff the last couple weeks. I love how they ran that fake jet sweep to McKenzie a couple times, but it was just that, a fake. It got the D to bite on it when we needed to actually run it.

[hondo in seattle]

22 hours ago, eball said:

Anyone thinking Daboll is going to (or deserves to) be fired this offseason is way off the mark.  Dude has been trying to make chicken salad with chicken shyte.  I can't imagine how he slept at night when he knew he had to game plan around Peterman.  The offense these days actually looks fun and has some speed.  Can't wait to see what he does after they fix more of the offensive problems (OL) during the offseason, and as Josh gains experience.

 

This is a great metaphor.

 

You can judge a chef when you go to his restaurant and he has lots of ingredients to work with.  If he disappoints, there's a problem.  

 

But you can't judge a chef's true ability on one of these tv game shows when they're asked to cook something good with lard, gochujang and shoe leather.    

 

Let's see what Daboll can do with good ingredients.  

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

The biggest gripe with Daboll is his inability to get Shady going.  A great RB is the best friend for a young QB.  This crap of putting everything on Josh's shoulder is way too much to ask the rookie.  Daboll should put Shady in space instead of trying to run between tackles all the time. At least they can use his ability to catch the ball and run...this is what NE does day in day out

Good lord, thank you. 

 

Bills fans seem to be myopic of sorts in that the team has been so devoid of scoring so that when the team finally does make some plays and score they seem oblivious to all else. 

 

The Bills play calling worked for three out of ten series and managed to beat two teams on downward spirals that have worse records at 3-8. So Bills fans seem deliriously happy with the OC and blame the lack of talent for past losses. Good to great coaches make the best out of the talent on hand and do not force their players into attempting to make their scheme work, regardless of the situation. Especially when you have such inexperienced young QBs who don't know what they are doing. 

 

I can't even imagine what the last two games would have been like had the Bills not taken the lead or had the Jets, Jags a semi competent QB behind center. 

 

The Bills play some bad teams ahead 5-6 Miami, home against 3-8 Jets again, Home against the 4-7 Detroit Lions. The 8-3 New England Patriots are the only team the Bills play down the stretch with a winning record and its @ NE. The last game is at home against the Dolphins. Four out of five of those games have somewhat competent QBs so those wins won't be as easy as the Jets, Jags. Kinda funny Bortles was benched and Hackett was fired after that loss to Buffalo. 

 

The end result could be as good as 8-8 or even 9-7 should the Bills manage to get McCoy over 20 touches per game, 100 plus yards in each of those games. This will help take the load off the rookie QB. The Bills defense is good enough that with help from the Buffalo run game they could win the rest of their games.  

[Ittakestime]

Game planning I have zero issues with Daboll.

 

Game management is where he falls off a cliff.

 

I like the way he designs plays and is creative, but when it comes to calling them in a game, he doesn't know the proper time for plays to happen. 

[tcampbell104]

lets see what he does with a more talented roster next year

[C.Biscuit97]

No what I’m sick of?  Having to settle because we’re Bills fans.  Guess what sucks?  Averaging 14.6 points in a league that wants you to score.  If you eliminate our high score (41) and low (0) this year, we are averaging 13 points a game.  That is terrible.

 

i don’t doubt how hard BD works or his knowledge of football.  If he was a newest OC, I’d give him a pass.  But read his resume?  What’s more likely?  He suddenly has a great offense or it’s bottom 5 of the nfl, like it has been everywhere he’s been the OC.

 

Do people not think he had a huge say in the quarterback position and offensive personnel?  All I heard is he can’t be worse than Dennison was. Well guess what? They have been historically bad in the highest scoring period in nfl history.  

 

SM won’t fire him because he would look terrible with 3 OCs in 3 years.  But how did keep Mularkey last year work out for Mariota?  How about Dirk for  Winston ?  How about all those bad coordinators we kept over the last 18 years?  

 

I hope I’m wrong and Daboll suddenly because Andy Reid.  But we did not watch a nfl offense this season and it’s ok to want better.  Even as a Bills fan.

[WideNine]

6 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

No what I’m sick of?  Having to settle because we’re Bills fans.  Guess what sucks?  Averaging 14.6 points in a league that wants you to score.  If you eliminate our high score (41) and low (0) this year, we are averaging 13 points a game.  That is terrible.

 

i don’t doubt how hard BD works or his knowledge of football.  If he was a newest OC, I’d give him a pass.  But read his resume?  What’s more likely?  He suddenly has a great offense or it’s bottom 5 of the nfl, like it has been everywhere he’s been the OC.

 

Do people not think he had a huge say in the quarterback position and offensive personnel?  All I heard is he can’t be worse than Dennison was. Well guess what? They have been historically bad in the highest scoring period in nfl history.  

 

SM won’t fire him because he would look terrible with 3 OCs in 3 years.  But how did keep Mularkey last year work out for Mariota?  How about Dirk for  Winston ?  How about all those bad coordinators we kept over the last 18 years?  

 

I hope I’m wrong and Daboll suddenly because Andy Reid.  But we did not watch a nfl offense this season and it’s ok to want better.  Even as a Bills fan.

I hear ya, but when I look through plays on the film review threads Daboll is getting guys open (at least now with the younger infusion of WR talent)

IMO they are primarily missing on those offensive shots for 3-4 reasons - 1. The o-line cannot hold up in pass-pro (particularly from center to RT) to allow our QB's to get through their progressions, 2. Josh is still learning where to go with the ball based on the look the defense is giving him, and is probably a bit slow going through his progressions, 3. Josh trusts his legs more than his pocket and will just tuck and run if he sees a soft edge when he may have a better downfield option, 4. The afore mentioned side of the o-line also struggles getting any push and opening holes in the run game.

 

A lot of good things could happen if the fix the line. Josh hits more passes, defenses are less inclined to play man and load the box, we get more push and more success running the ball. Basically, they will put more points on the board.

 

I am trying to understand how changing an OC fixes the above when I think there is more evidence of rookie QB's being ruined because they are forced to adapt to a revolving door of OC's and changing playbooks.

Edited December 1, 2018 by WideNine

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

No what I’m sick of?  Having to settle because we’re Bills fans.  Guess what sucks?  Averaging 14.6 points in a league that wants you to score.  If you eliminate our high score (41) and low (0) this year, we are averaging 13 points a game.  That is terrible.

 

i don’t doubt how hard BD works or his knowledge of football.  If he was a newest OC, I’d give him a pass.  But read his resume?  What’s more likely?  He suddenly has a great offense or it’s bottom 5 of the nfl, like it has been everywhere he’s been the OC.

 

Do people not think he had a huge say in the quarterback position and offensive personnel?  All I heard is he can’t be worse than Dennison was. Well guess what? They have been historically bad in the highest scoring period in nfl history.  

 

SM won’t fire him because he would look terrible with 3 OCs in 3 years.  But how did keep Mularkey last year work out for Mariota?  How about Dirk for  Winston ?  How about all those bad coordinators we kept over the last 18 years?  

 

I hope I’m wrong and Daboll suddenly because Andy Reid.  But we did not watch a nfl offense this season and it’s ok to want better.  Even as a Bills fan.

We have terrible WRs, an OL that cant run block and can only sometimes adequately pass block mixed with a rookie QB, the worst an in history and two bums off the couch.  Not sure which OCs would be scoring over 13 a game.  

 

Youre right, we shouldn’t have to settle because we’re bills fans, but it wasn’t hard to predict that our offense would be awful this year.  Everyone had us as a bottom 3 team in the league if not the worst.....because of our offensive talent.  But to blame Daboll might be pushing it.  I’m not a huge fan of his, but I’ve certainly seen worse play calling.  I think he deserves another shot after we get some blocking and playmakers 

Edited November 30, 2018 by NewEra

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

We have terrible WRs, an OL that cant run block and can only sometimes adequately pass block mixed with a rookie QB, the worst an in history and two bums off the couch.  Not sure which OCs would be scoring over 13 a game.  

 

Youre right, we shouldn’t have to settle because we’re bills fans, but it wasn’t hard to predict that our offense would be awful this year.  Everyone had us as a bottom 3 team in the league if not the worst.....because of our offensive talent.  But to blame Daboll might be pushing it.  I’m not a huge fan of his, but I’ve certainly seen worse play calling.  I think he deserves another shot after we get some blocking and playmakers 

He just got here. Gone through 3 QBs and a Peterman already. Hard to  develop some consistency in pla calling and adjustments for just that reason.
 Once they get the QB situation better settled ( next season ) i will be better qualified to judge Brian as long term answer.

 

Heck we hated Frazier there for awhile didn't we ?