I actually like Daboll!

[blacklabel]

Honestly, if I was Brian Daboll... I would go and see if I could get my hands on some Chan Gailey playbooks and schemes. That's right, good ol' Chan. Not a great head coach, but a pretty solid offensive coordinator. Don't recall what year it was, but when he was here with his island of misfit toys (Fitz, Stevie, Freddy, etc.) he really did a lot with a little. Of that receiving group, only Stevie Johnson had the ability to run his routes and get open on a routine basis, everyone else was open by scheme. Daboll has shown the ability to do that but yeah, why not take a look at what Chan was able to do with a not-so-talented group like they currently have.

[dave mcbride]

26 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

Every single member of that offense washed out of the NFL, never made even a slight impact anywhere else, except for Fitz, once again under Gailey. Gailey implemented a modern offense capable of producing despite severely deciefint talent. You don’t think it was deficient because Gailey made it look way better than it had any right to be, even under rules that weren’t as soft as now. Daboll can’t do this 

This just isn't true. Stevie Johnson washed out because of *injury* and injury alone. Even still, he had 80 catches over his final two seasons, and he missed significant time in both of them. Spiller was actually an elite player for a couple of seasons before dings added up and took away his one saving asset (quickness/blazing speed). Jackson was flat out good, to the point where he was leading the league in rushing 11 weeks into the season in 2011 (he broke his leg). The o-line wasn't great, but it was better than what it is now. And the QB, for all of his manifold flaws, was a LOT better than what we currently have. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by dave mcbride

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

You're fixating on draft position, which isn't relevant. Stevie Johnson was way better than a seventh rounder, and Fred Jackson was a bona fide good player.  Fitz was and is better than what we have. 

What did any of those guys do after Buffalo?  Also, better coaches are better at finding talent.  Daboll got to hand pick a qb in the top 10.  I’m betting he had a major say on offensive personnel.  He deserves blame for that too.  

 

Gailey maximized journeymen type players.  Honest question:  would our offense be better with Chan or Daboll? To me, it’s no brainer.  And that said, our offensive talent sucks. 

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

What did any of those guys do after Buffalo?  Also, better coaches are better at finding talent.  Daboll got to hand pick a qb in the top 10.  I’m betting he had a major say on offensive personnel.  He deserves blame for that too.  

 

Gailey maximized journeymen type players.  Honest question:  would our offense be better with Chan or Daboll? To me, it’s no brainer.  And that said, our offensive talent sucks. 

I loved Chans offense.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

This just isn't true. Stevie Johnson washed out because of *injury* and injury alone. Even still, he had 80 catches over his final two seasons, and he missed significant time in both of them. Spiller was actually an elite player for a couple of seasons before dings added up and took away his one saving asset (quickness/blazing speed). Jackson was flat out good. The o-line wasn't great, but it was better than what it is now. And the QB, for all of his manifold flaws, was a LOT better than what we currently have. 

Good point about Spiller.  Chan was the only coach who maximized him.

 

Youre a good poster Dave.  It’s ok to admit Gailey was a good OC. ?

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

I loved Chans offense.

He should have been an OC. It also was really stupid he never drafted a qb to develop under Fitz. It could have been a Mahomes type situation.

[dave mcbride]

6 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

What did any of those guys do after Buffalo?  Also, better coaches are better at finding talent.  Daboll got to hand pick a qb in the top 10.  I’m betting he had a major say on offensive personnel.  He deserves blame for that too.  

 

Gailey maximized journeymen type players.  Honest question:  would our offense be better with Chan or Daboll? To me, it’s no brainer.  And that said, our offensive talent sucks. 

Fred spent his entire career here except for the one season in Seattle when he was like 52 years old!! Come on, C. Biscuit. Johnson was doing fine in SF but was hurt a lot in 2014. He was also in decline, which he wasn't from 2010-2012. He got banged up a lot after 2012. 

 

Saying players didn't perform well after leaving one team where they performed well is a red herring. Does that make Adrian Peterson and LaDanian Tomlinson lesser talents? All players have windows, and they tend to be in their younger years. There are exceptions, but they're few and far between.

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Good point about Spiller.  Chan was the only coach who maximized him.

 

Youre a good poster Dave.  It’s ok to admit Gailey was a good OC. ?

He should have been an OC. It also was really stupid he never drafted a qb to develop under Fitz. It could have been a Mahomes type situation.

I like Gailey as OC - I never said I didn't! All I'm saying is that this unit is straight up garbage (starting with the QB position) and worse than what Chan had. At least Chan had a vet QB with mobility who could run a sophisticated offense. That counts for a TON. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by dave mcbride

[cgg716]

23 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

This just isn't true. Stevie Johnson washed out because of *injury* and injury alone. Even still, he had 80 catches over his final two seasons, and he missed significant time in both of them. Spiller was actually an elite player for a couple of seasons before dings added up and took away his one saving asset (quickness/blazing speed). Jackson was flat out good, to the point where he was leading the league in rushing 11 weeks into the season in 2011 (he broke his leg). The o-line wasn't great, but it was better than what it is now. And the QB, for all of his manifold flaws, was a LOT better than what we currently have. 

Two 40 catch years is impact? And CJ wasn’t a all the time injuried Guy, he just wasn’t good, even under Sean Payton. Freddy was the best player we had, but was still lacking speed in an increasingly faster league. Gailey made them all way better than they were. Hence the zero impact anywhere else. Daboll can’t do this, even though this team might have better talent. Especially when Allen is in

[C.Biscuit97]

26 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Fred spent his entire career here except for the one season in Seattle when he was like 52 years old!! Come on, C. Biscuit. Johnson was doing fine in SF but was hurt a lot in 2014. He was also in decline, which he wasn't from 2010-2012. He got banged up a lot after 2012. 

 

Saying players didn't perform well after leaving one team where they performed well is a red herring. Does that make Adrian Peterson and LaDanian Tomlinson lesser talents? All players have windows, and they tend to be in their younger years. There are exceptions, but they're few and far between.

I like Gailey as OC - I never said I didn't! All I'm saying is that this unit is straight up garbage (starting with the QB position) and worse than what Chan had. At least Chan had a vet QB with mobility who could run a sophisticated offense. That counts for a TON. 

Daboll or Gailey?  Who does better with this offense?  I think there is not one thing special Daboll does.  Good coaches find a way to maximize their talent.  Daboll is a replacement level OC who probably had a huge say in picking our qbs.  It’s kinda scary.

 

also, what does it say about this season that we’re debating Chan vs. Daboll? ?

[Nihilarian]

20 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I like Gailey as OC - I never said I didn't! All I'm saying is that this unit is straight up garbage (starting with the QB position) and worse than what Chan had. At least Chan had a vet QB with mobility who could run a sophisticated offense. That counts for a TON. 

Gailey had some time as OC with the NY Jets with Fitz as his QB and they went 10-6 in 2015 in HC Todd Bowles first year. Fitz threw for almost 4k yards with 31 TDs, 15 INTs.

 

What happened the next year is what happens with Fitz and Gailey as teams figure out how to beat Gailey's smoke and mirror offense. And Fitz is well, Fitz as he tends to get hot and cold. 2016 saw him throw for 2700 yards with 12 TDs, 17 INTs and go 3-8. The Jets crashed to 5-11. 

[C.Biscuit97]

6 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

Two 40 catch years is impact? And CJ wasn’t a all the time injuried Guy, he just wasn’t good, even under Sean Payton. Freddy was the best player we had, but was still lacking speed in an increasingly faster league. Gailey made them all way better than they were. Hence the zero impact anywhere else. Daboll can’t do this, even though this team might have better talent. Especially when Allen is in

The Spiller thing killed me.  For a year and a half, he was one of the most explosive players in the nfl.  I was shocked he did nothing in NO.  Also, Reid couldn’t do anything with him.  

 

Chan might be the best offensive coach we have had since the SB years.

[dave mcbride]

14 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

Two 40 catch years is impact? And CJ wasn’t a all the time injuried Guy, he just wasn’t good, even under Sean Payton. Freddy was the best player we had, but was still lacking speed in an increasingly faster league. Gailey made them all way better than they were. Hence the zero impact anywhere else. Daboll can’t do this, even though this team might have better talent. Especially when Allen is in

CJ Spiller's 2012 season is probably the best season by a Bills offensive player since Eric Moulds in 1998. This will sound strong, but I actually don't even think it's all that debatable. He averaged 6.0 ypc and over 10 yards per reception!

7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

The Spiller thing killed me.  For a year and a half, he was one of the most explosive players in the nfl.  I was shocked he did nothing in NO.  Also, Reid couldn’t do anything with him.  

 

Chan might be the best offensive coach we have had since the SB years.

Spiller was just not the same player. He had a truly unique speed/quickness combo that had clearly eroded by 2014. He got banged up a LOT. Nothing really major, but lots of small tears and sprains. Those guys tend to have short shelf lives, but in their elite years, they're game breakers.

8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Daboll or Gailey?  Who does better with this offense?  I think there is not one thing special Daboll does.  Good coaches find a way to maximize their talent.  Daboll is a replacement level OC who probably had a huge say in picking our qbs.  It’s kinda scary.

 

also, what does it say about this season that we’re debating Chan vs. Daboll? ?

I'm not disputing that Gailey was good, but I also think it's unfair to judge Daboll given the talent here. And I gotta say, anyone who thinks that the talent this year even remotely resembles the 2011-12 teams is smoking something. They weren't elite talent teams, but my god. The one genuinely good player on this team (McCoy) has been banged up all season and may well be traded soon. 

 

One other point about guys who did well elsewhere and declined afterward: Chris Ivory. He was elite for a little while, and now he's just decent (not bad, mind you). It's the curse of the 30-year old RB (and Ivory is actually 30 with a lot miles). Guys wear down at the RB position fast. 

9 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

The Spiller thing killed me.  For a year and a half, he was one of the most explosive players in the nfl.  I was shocked he did nothing in NO.  Also, Reid couldn’t do anything with him.  

 

Chan might be the best offensive coach we have had since the SB years.

 

PS - Scroll down. https://sportsinjurypredictor.com/player/cj-spiller/3363

Edited October 25, 2018 by dave mcbride

[The Process]

9 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

There is no way to fairly evaluate Daboll as OC this season. There are things you can look at and assess in terms of scheme but overall he signed up for a train wreck and should be given at least 2 years and some talent to work before judging him.

Our players make the coaches look bad....the coaches make the players look bad....what came first the chicken or the egg?

[Nihilarian]

15 hours ago, blacklabel said:

Honestly, if I was Brian Daboll... I would go and see if I could get my hands on some Chan Gailey playbooks and schemes. That's right, good ol' Chan. Not a great head coach, but a pretty solid offensive coordinator. Don't recall what year it was, but when he was here with his island of misfit toys (Fitz, Stevie, Freddy, etc.) he really did a lot with a little. Of that receiving group, only Stevie Johnson had the ability to run his routes and get open on a routine basis, everyone else was open by scheme. Daboll has shown the ability to do that but yeah, why not take a look at what Chan was able to do with a not-so-talented group like they currently have.

Daboll has something better, the NE Patriots playbook and he has been running with it to a degree calling for the downfield passes like Brady throws. The biggest difference is that Josh McDaniel's calls for more outlet passes to move the chains with RB James White who is seeing a lot of passes. White leads the team in receptions with 45 right now and second is Gronk with 26. What does that tell you about what Daboll isn't doing?

 

Chan Gailey got the HCing job in Buffalo because he told Ralph Wilson he could win without big money stars on offense. (from Peter King SI) So, Gailey who ran a pistol type offense as OC in KC went to a 5 WR spread set in Buffalo. This scheme worked for a while because of Fitz who knew protections and barked them out to set the line and Stevie Johnson who didn't run precise routes but what he did do was he was able to find a way to get separation and get open against even the very best DBs. 

 

Gailey ran what was dubbed a "smoke and mirror" offense because he would put 5 WRs on the field and spread the offense out sideline to sideline and yet Stevie Johnson was the guy who saw the most targets. Fitz would throw a very quick, fast out to Steve that was almost unstoppable. After a while most teams realized that if they bumped Stevie on the line and took him out of the equation that pass offense didn't work so well. 

 

Gaileys spread offense was a delight to watch because Fitz would gun sling his way to almost 4000 yards. The run game worked out of that shotgun spread formation because the defense was so spread out that the RBs usually only had to beat one guy and it was a race after that. Both Spiller and Fred Jackson had over 5.0 YPC average in 2011. 

 

Fun to watch on offense but the best the team ever did under Gailey was 6-10 and the best the offense under Gailey was 14th, Yards, Points. Interesting stat, 27 in rush attempts, 13th in yards. 

 

2011 stats.

Stevie Johnson, 134 targets, 76 catches for 1004 yards, 7 TDs. 56.7 catch%. 

David Nelson, 97 targets, 61 catches for 658 yards, 5 TDs, 62.9 catch%

Fred Jackson, 50 targets, 39 catches for 442 yards, 0 TDs, 78.0 catch %

CJ Spiller, 54 targets, 39 catches for 269 yards, 2 TDs, 72.2 catch%

Scott Chandler, 46 targets, 38 catches for 389, 6 TDs, 82.6 catch%

 

[GunnerBill]

17 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

The o-line wasn't great, but it was better than what it is now.

 

Glenn - Levitre - Wood - Urbik - Pears which was the line his final year as head coach is about a million times better than now. As for washing out outside Buffalo.... other than Wood who obviously retired here they all started games elsewhere in the league. Glenn has been a massive upgrade in Cincy, Levitre has started in a Superbowl, Pears started two more seasons here and then the entire season for the 49ers after the Bills released him and Urbik continued to be a starter / rotational depth guy here and then in Miami. 

 

I maintain of our existing offensive lineup only Shady and probably Charles Clay (not great but better than Chandler) would start on that Chan Gailey offense. You can make an argument for Benjamin based on his production in Carolina but not on his play in Buffalo. 

[Estelle Getty]

22 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

Do you actually watch the games? Because run run pass is all we do. I stopped reading once you said those days are gone

 

Simply not true, but ok!

[Maine-iac]

On 10/25/2018 at 7:42 AM, T master said:

 

!st yr OC with this team, 1st yr new scheme, loss of 3 veteran starting offensive linemen one of which was a pro bowler, well below average WR corp, Rookie QB after a 2nd round 2nd yr QB with less than NFL potential starts the yr, then insert almost retired average at best QB with a career 20-27 win percentage after rookie gets hurt to carry the team .

 

Sounds logical to me why you would think this OC sucks yah he has plenty to work with & there was no uphill battle here at all so WTF Dabol get off your A** & get this team on the winning side of things !!  

All of this explains why he's averaging 12ppg instead of his usual 16ppg. 

[Rebel101]

11 hours ago, Estelle Getty said:

 

Simply not true, but ok!

I didn’t watch the entire colts game I turned it off. But Daboll runs on first down constantly. And he has ran the ball twice in a row multiple times. The only time he begins to pass is late in the game when we are behind. And for some reason began to throw the ball with peterman in and game and a lead where running the ball was actually the smart move. We are 27th in the league in passing percentage and we play from behind from behind almost every game. But you are right we throw the ball all the time

Edited October 27, 2018 by Rebel101

[iinii]

On 10/25/2018 at 12:02 AM, Estelle Getty said:

The man is atleast attempting to run a real NFL offense. Very rarely do you see the run, run, pass combo we have come so accustom to over the last few years. Gone are the days of draw up the middle out of the shotgun for 1 yard over and over. 

 

The only issue is he is trying to run a modern day NFL offense with Junior College talent.  I think his stubbornness will pay off in the long run by helping to weed out the players who can’t hack it in a real offense. Much like we saw a defensive overhaul this year I would expect the same on offense next year.  

 

I have confidence that McBeane have the ability to figure it out, as they did on defense.  As far as McDermott, let’s not forget he got us to the playoffs with a joke of a roster last year.  This year any educated fan could see we were not built to win although there was always the outside chance much like last year.     

Dalton got us in the playoffs. 

[mrags]

Stop making false posts about 

 yourself Brian. Your terrible. Just quit 

Edited October 27, 2018 by mrags

[Nelius]

Daboll is terrible. I guess we're in some strange world where people who hate the guy who hasn't done his job for half a season are haters, and those willing to withstand this all-time miserable offense are hipster pragmatists or something, but the guy sucks. If he's so damn creative and new-age then our athletic freak of a quarterback wouldn't have averaged something like 91 yards passing a game before getting injured. C'mon people.