QB is always the root of offensive problems

[Fadingpain]

3 hours ago, mjt328 said:

So the common theme I keep reading is that Brandon Beane/Sean McDermott either:

a)  Don't want their team to be good on offense, and want to win games by low scores, OR

b)  Are totally clueless on how to find offensive talent.

 

 

The first theory is totally ridiculous.  If Beane/McDermott were not interested in the offensive side of the ball, they wouldn't have spent nearly 12 months acquiring draft capitol for the sole-purpose of trading up to get the riskiest QB in the draft, simply because he had the highest ceiling.  This was not a conservative or remotely safe decision.

 

 

Whether Beane/McDermott are clueless about the offensive side of the ball has yet to be determined.

Yes, the offense is terrible.  Maybe the worst we've seen in Buffalo since Jim Kelly retired (and that's really saying something).

But I'm 100% convinced that our struggles on offense are MOSTLY related to the play of our quarterbacks.  They are dragging everything down.

 

Anybody who reviews All-22 film will readily admit that our O-Line is actually playing decent.  They struggled badly the first two weeks, but have really settled in since Minnesota.  Most of the sacks are because of our QB leaving the pocket or holding the ball too long.  The two best blockers this season are easily Dion Dawkins and Vlad Ducasse, who were both pickups of this regime.  The worst breakdowns each week are coming from the right side of the line with John Miller and Jordan Mills, both hold-overs from Doug Whaley. 

 

On the Wide Receivers, complain about Kelvin Benjamin, and how terrible of a decision it was to get him.  They complain that Zay Jones is a huge bust.  But how are we supposed to make a true judgment about Benjamin or Jones, when our QBs cannot find open receivers with any consistency AND then cannot get the ball to them accurately?  Before Benjamin came to Buffalo, he put up 1008 and 941 yards, then was on pace for 950 yards in his third season.  He wasn't setting the world on fire, but he was a good NFL starter.  Since the trade, he's got a whopping 434 yards in 13 games.  Is it just possible that our problem is not Benjamin, but the people throwing him the ball?

 

With no threat passing the ball, even LeSean McCoy is having the worst season of his career.

 

 

It all comes back to Quarterback.  I truly believe we could trade for AJ Green and Antonio Brown in the offseason, and our passing game would still be in shambles without Josh Allen taking a significant step forward.  Even if we dedicate 100% of our draft/free agent resources on upgrading that side of the ball, we need our QB to step forward - or it's all going to be pointless.  It all falls on Allen's shoulders.

Of course I realize that our current front office owns this QB situation.  And it's fair to question whether they provided the best situation for him to develop in.  But at the end of the day, we all SHOULD have expected these kind of struggles with a rookie quarterback.  Especially one who was considered a big project by even his biggest supporters.  Whether Allen becomes a Hall of Famer or the next Jamarcus Russell, this was the way his first season was always going to look. 

This was the journey we all agreed to when we advocated for a 1st Round QB.  And we won't know for another year or two whether Beane/McDermott made a massive mistake, or a brilliant decision in drafting him.

 

 

 

 

Disagree with the bolded; he's lost.  

If he was going to be a good one, he would not be lost right now.

 

PS:  Of course it all begins (and ends) with the QB position.  It's why we should draft another one with our upcoming high pick.

We won't. 

 

 

[ghostwriter]

23 minutes ago, The Process said:

Under Daboll the Browns had the NFL's 32nd ranked offense in 2009^[1] and the 29th ranked offense in 2010.^[2] Daboll was named Offensive Coordinator of the Miami Dolphins under Tony Sparano in 2011, with his Dolphins improving from 30th in the league to 20th in overall offense.^[3] 

 

Wow stellar career. Give the fans the play-book....use an instant voting app. to send in the play calls. I'll bet it wouldn't be worse.

It's not even just the play calls it's like some of the most basic and vanilla run blocking designs too, OL pretty much never do any designs that are fun and clever, no thought, no wit or intellect was put into any blocking formations or play calling.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

52 minutes ago, The Process said:

Under Daboll the Browns had the NFL's 32nd ranked offense in 2009^[1] and the 29th ranked offense in 2010.^[2] Daboll was named Offensive Coordinator of the Miami Dolphins under Tony Sparano in 2011, with his Dolphins improving from 30th in the league to 20th in overall offense.^[3] 

 

Wow stellar career. Give the fans the play-book....use an instant voting app. to send in the play calls. I'll bet it wouldn't be worse.

You would get 10 flee flickers before the half if they did that.

[twoandfourteen]

30 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

Disagree with the bolded; he's lost.  

If he was going to be a good one, he would not be lost right now.

 

PS:  Of course it all begins (and ends) with the QB position.  It's why we should draft another one with our upcoming high pick.

We won't. 

 

 

 

I think we just became best friends. 

[The Process]

7 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

You would get 10 flee flickers before the half if they did that.

Probably right! Leaves me wondering if that would result in more than 3 points.....

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I always point to backup QB's for good starting QB's. Typically the backup comes in and offensive production drops and pressures allowed increase. Why do you think that is?

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, TheTruthHurts said:

I love when fans blame WR's for not getting open. NFL WR's "open" only if the ball is out on time or the OC draws up a great play at the right time. Most of the time QB's are throwing WR's open with anticipation or throwing in tight windows giving WR's a chance. 

 

 

Nah.  Half the NFL passes I see around the league the wide receiver has no one around him for 2 to 10 yards.  Guys get open all the time.  No QB is fitting dimes in on receivers smothered by defenders all game long.  Throwing a receiver open generally means he doesn't already have a defender draped all over him.  Unless said receiver has afterburners or the corner is bad he will still be all over him.  Throwing a receiver open means there are defenders near him and the QB finds the spot with the most space for him rather than leading him into coverage. 

 

Sure sometimes good QBs throw in some really tight windows but that doesn't happen all game long.  Most of the time its someone that's open by a yard or more.  Our receivers get open by like inches or feet.  I mean I am sure our QBs miss stuff.  Im sure some guy is watching all 22 and saying.... SEE THAT GUY IS WIDE OPEN.  Thing is no one knows what the progression is and most times QBs, unless they are really great and have played for a long time are not going through full progressions.  Or perhaps he wasn't open at the time of his progression look.

 

The average tight window throws are only about 16%.  The most is 27%.  Tight window throw is defined by a receiver having 1 or less yards of separation.  Mahomes throws at a 10% rate and Aaron Rodgers throws at a 12.2% rate for reference.  That means the large majority of their throws guys are open by more than 1 yard.  So as to your statement "most of the time" … no, most of the time they are not.

 

How many times do you watch Bills game and say how the %*&% is that guy so open when the other team picks up third and long or whatever?  That happens all across the league all game long.  

 

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Scott7975

[#34fan]

 Who hired the QB???

 

As much as I'm not a fan of Allen's, This mess is NOT his fault.

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

43 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Nah.  Half the NFL passes I see around the league the wide receiver has no one around him for 2 to 10 yards.  Guys get open all the time.  No QB is fitting dimes in on receivers smothered by defenders all game long.  Throwing a receiver open generally means he doesn't already have a defender draped all over him.  Unless said receiver has afterburners or the corner is bad he will still be all over him.  Throwing a receiver open means there are defenders near him and the QB finds the spot with the most space for him rather than leading him into coverage. 

 

Sure sometimes good QBs throw in some really tight windows but that doesn't happen all game long.  Most of the time its someone that's open by a yard or more.  Our receivers get open by like inches or feet.  I mean I am sure our QBs miss stuff.  Im sure some guy is watching all 22 and saying.... SEE THAT GUY IS WIDE OPEN.  Thing is no one knows what the progression is and most times QBs, unless they are really great and have played for a long time are not going through full progressions.  Or perhaps he wasn't open at the time of his progression look.

 

The average tight window throws are only about 16%.  The most is 27%.  Tight window throw is defined by a receiver having 1 or less yards of separation.  Mahomes throws at a 10% rate and Aaron Rodgers throws at a 12.2% rate for reference.  That means the large majority of their throws guys are open by more than 1 yard.  So as to your statement "most of the time" … no, most of the time they are not.

 

How many times do you watch Bills game and say how the %*&% is that guy so open when the other team picks up third and long or whatever?  That happens all across the league all game long.  

 

 

2-10 yards ? The best WRs in the game average around 2.5 yards of separation.
 

I consider tight windows to be around that 2.5 yards.

 

If a QB is just a half second late on their reads that's the 2.5 yards of separation right there. Timing is everything, and we're talking under a second. It's not something easy to see watching a game live.

 

Speaking of separation, Zay Jones is among the best this season yet his targets are among the worst.

 

[Bing Bong]

4 hours ago, TheTruthHurts said:

I love when fans blame WR's for not getting open. NFL WR's "open" only if the ball is out on time or the OC draws up a great play at the right time. Most of the time QB's are throwing WR's open with anticipation or throwing in tight windows giving WR's a chance. 

 

 

No they're bad route runners that don't beat man coverage and put themselves in a difficult zone spot. Think about Edelman who gets open at will.. you can throw the anticipation throws a handful of times, it also helps if Edelman-type-slot-WR beats his man with a sharp cut, or spots the best place to run in zone for the passing lane for his Quarterback. We don't have any guys in that league and I don't even want to start with the tiny catch radius they have when not open but theoretically could make a tough grab.

 

Zay Jones is really the only guy that runs a decent route consistently.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, TheTruthHurts said:

2-10 yards ? The best WRs in the game average around 2.5 yards of separation.
 

I consider tight windows to be around that 2.5 yards.

 

If a QB is just a half second late on their reads that's the 2.5 yards of separation right there. Timing is everything, and we're talking under a second. It's not something easy to see watching a game live.

 

Speaking of separation, Zay Jones is among the best this season yet his targets are among the worst.

 

The NFL considers a tight window 1 yard or less.  2.5 yards is not a tight window.  Timing is everything but people put too much stock in it because its media blasted.  Timing is everything when the receiver and QB hook up.  They both have to do their job.

 

What if a receiver is a half second late on his route?  Or like 2 seconds if your KB.

 

Zay Jones is among the best according to who?  According to Next Gen Stats he is ranked 109 in yards of separation when targeted.  

 

Your post is kind of like those guys that say "look at the yards Brock Osweiller got last week."  Yeah, It is easy for a QB to put up yards when he throws a 6 yard pass and the receiver takes off for 60+ yards.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Scott7975

[Buffalo_Stampede]

14 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

The NFL considers a tight window 1 yard or less.  2.5 yards is not a tight window.  Timing is everything but people put too much stock in it because its media blasted.  Timing is everything when the receiver and QB hook up.  They both have to do their job.

 

Zay Jones is among the best according to who?  According to Next Gen Stats he is ranked 109 in yards of separation when targeted.  

"when targeted" 

 

Think of the QBs we've had. They don't throw often with anticipation. 

 

Good QB's throw WR's open often. You have a WR running his route, he may not be open right when he breaks, that seperation happens at that moment. Ball must be out. Wait a half second that window is closed. 

 

There isn't a lot that seperates the Aaron Rodgers from the Tyrod Taylor's. It's all about processing. Tyrod may take a half second to a second longer to process, that's all the difference in the world. Open WR's to Rodgers look covered to Taylor. 

 

There is a trust factor also. That's where the great WR's shine. They are always in the right spot at the right time. QBs can trust that. We are missing that right now, buy still QB's aren't giving WR's a chance to make plays. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by TheTruthHurts

[Scott7975]

15 minutes ago, TheTruthHurts said:

"when targeted" 

 

Think of the QBs we've had. They don't throw often to WR's when the CB are within a couple yards. 

 

Good QB's throw WR's open often. You have a WR running his route, he may not be open right when he breaks, that seperation happens at that moment. Ball must be out. Wait a half second that window is closed. 

 

There isn't a lot that seperates the Aaron Rodgers from the Tyrod Taylor's. Tyrod may take a half second to a second longer to process, that's all the difference in the world. Open WR's to Rodgers look covered to Taylor. 

 

There is a trust factor also. That's where the great WR's shine. They are always in the right spot at the right time. QBs can trust that. 

Yes when targeted.  Are you going to argue that Zay is only getting separation when he isn't targeted?

 

Yes sometimes they do, but I don't think throwing open means what you think it means.  So all you need is timing.  Receivers always get open on their breaks?  Yes timing matters.

 

Correct.  Are you expecting a 5 game rookie to have that kind of process already?  Maybe you expectPeterman who also has no experience to write home about to have that.  Maybe even a guy that has been here a couple weeks and probably only ran a handful of plays the last game should have that down with a weeks worth of timing work with our slow as snail receivers.

 

Of course there is the trust factor.  Our receivers suck.  Our Oline often breaks down, although getting somewhat better.  Those things play into trust.  Key word... great receiver are in the right spot at the right time.  Who is that?  Snail Benjamin?  Over the hill Holmes?  Stone hands Zay, although better this season?  Stone hands Clay?  I cant track a ball so now Im off the roster Robert Foster?  Fumbilitist Ray Ray who couldn't even make the trip last week?  Maybe freshly signed off our practice squad Cam?

 

This team has no talent in the WR position period.  There is no one on this team that can be counted on consistently.  Not even Clay.  Clay makes some miraculous cant believe he stayed in bounds catch one minute and the next minute he drops a gift pass or fumbles.  Seriously dude.  What WR can be counted on?  None of them have speed to get the separation you are talking about.  2.5 yards separation?  LMAO.  Have you seen Benjamin run?  He's our number one and he wont be here next year.  Zay may be ok someday.  The rest are grocery baggers at best.

 

Look, I get it.  Our QBs suck.  Peterman is a lost cause.  Anderson is a journeyman that isn't even as good as Fitzpatrick.  Allen... he is young and its way too early to say.  What is not too early to say is our WR core is among the worst in NFL history.  Our oline is below average.  Mills is already at the QB before he makes contact with his man if he does at all.  The rest aren't far behind except maybe Dawkins.

 

I doubt Brady could get our team to the playoffs.  It would be better for sure, but not good enough.  It takes more than just QB.  On this team... a lot more.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Scott7975

[Dr.Sack]

Weird thing is some teams use 2 extra offensive linemen, and bring in two blocking TEs, and proceed to hammer the ball down other teams throats. 

 

If we were to run jumbo packages and get adequate blocking is it not impossible to think that we would wear down the Patriots if we ran at them hard on our 60 plays?

 

I’m talking 4 runs to get 10 yards. Just plow forward with the attempt of hurting their smaller front line.

 

There’d be no reason for New England to expect this & therefore by the end of the 1st half they’d be tired, beaten & likely would have sustained 2-5 injured defensive players as Daboll goes Alabama on them.

 

Chris Ivory & Marcus Murphy would have over 300 yards rushing & we’d end up with 45 minutes of possession. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

Yes when targeted.  Are you going to argue that Zay is only getting separation when he isn't targeted?

 

Yes sometimes they do, but I don't think throwing open means what you think it means.  So all you need is timing.  Receivers always get open on their breaks?  Yes timing matters.

 

Correct.  Are you expecting a 5 game rookie to have that kind of process already?  Maybe you expectPeterman who also has no experience to write home about to have that.  Maybe even a guy that has been here a couple weeks and probably only ran a handful of plays the last game should have that down with a weeks worth of timing work with our slow as snail receivers.

 

Of course there is the trust factor.  Our receivers suck.  Our Oline often breaks down, although getting somewhat better.  Those things play into trust.  Key word... great receiver are in the right spot at the right time.  Who is that?  Snail Benjamin?  Over the hill Holmes?  Stone hands Zay, although better this season?  Stone hands Clay?  I cant track a ball so now Im off the roster Robert Foster?  Fumbilitist Ray Ray who couldn't even make the trip last week?  Maybe freshly signed off our practice squad Cam?

 

This team has no talent in the WR position period.  There is no one on this team that can be counted on consistently.  Not even Clay.  Clay makes some miraculous cant believe he stayed in bounds catch one minute and the next minute he drops a gift pass or fumbles.  Seriously dude.  What WR can be counted on?  None of them have speed to get the separation you are talking about.  2.5 yards separation?  LMAO.  Have you seen Benjamin run?  He's our number one and he wont be here next year.  Zay may be ok someday.  The rest are grocery baggers at best.

 

Look, I get it.  Our QBs suck.  Peterman is a lost cause.  Anderson is a journeyman that isn't even as good as Fitzpatrick.  Allen... he is young and its way too early to say.  What is not too early to say is our WR core is among the worst in NFL history.  Our oline is below average.  Mills is already at the QB before he makes contact with his man if he does at all.  The rest aren't far behind except maybe Dawkins.

 

I doubt Brady could get our team to the playoffs.  It would be better for sure, but not good enough.  It takes more than just QB.  On this team... a lot more.

Zay runs a lot more routes than when targeted. And when targeted does the ball come out on time?

 

I can't stand arguing with people that try to take away what an elite QB means to an offense. 

 

If you want to debate about the middle tier QB's then fine, yes there is more to the offense. I mean you take Aaron Rodgers out and you go from a top 5 passing game to a bottom 5 passing game instantly. 

[KOKO NFL]

7 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I think it's because our aerial attack is so pathetic that no one respects it and loads the box to stop the run.

 

I'm just guessing what the OP meant.  

This.

[twoandfourteen]

3 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Weird thing is some teams use 2 extra offensive linemen, and bring in two blocking TEs, and proceed to hammer the ball down other teams throats. 

 

If we were to run jumbo packages and get adequate blocking is it not impossible to think that we would wear down the Patriots if we ran at them hard on our 60 plays?

 

I’m talking 4 runs to get 10 yards. Just plow forward with the attempt of hurting their smaller front line.

 

There’d be no reason for New England to expect this & therefore by the end of the 1st half they’d be tired, beaten & likely would have sustained 2-5 injured defensive players as Daboll goes Alabama on them.

 

Chris Ivory & Marcus Murphy would have over 300 yards rushing & we’d end up with 45 minutes of possession. 

 

And the Bills would still lose 28-6. 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, NewDayBills said:

Thing is even McCarron and Anderson struggled mightily in this offense, those two guys may not be All-Pros but they've had legitimate NFL careers. Nobody looks good in this offense, Daboll is the problem, he can't get anything going.

 

 

Agreed that it's not all the QB's fault.

 

What's at fault is that it's year two of a rebuild ... of a team that has made defense the priority early. The second year of major rebuilds are painful. That's the way things go. In the third and fourth year, either things get better or you start to realize that it may be a coach issue or a GM issue or both. Right now though, it's what everyone should have expected.

[fansince88]

Im willing to give Allen 2 years and McD and beane their contract

[H2o]

After watching how things have unfolded after Josh Allen went down with his injury I believe he means more to this team than anyone wants to admit. His numbers aren't pretty, he doesn't make all the right decisions, and he is making rookie mistakes along the way. Even with all of that the overall energy of this team when he is taking the snaps is night and day. My opinion is we would have won the last two if he was out there. I definitely feel we would have won the Texans game at the least. It seems the guys on both sides of the ball rally around him. I still don't know if he'll turn into Big Ben or if he is Blake Bortles, but I can recognize the effect he has on our team when under Center.