Thurman#1 Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, JM57 said: Good thing the acquisitions they have made on offense so far: Jones, Benjamin, Tolbert, Matthews, Holmes, Ducasse, Bodine...etc. have been so effective. I definitely trust them to find the right guys to fix a historically bad offense. They clearly know how to identify good offensive players, just look at that list of good contributors above.? Good argument for those who disagree with you. In two years they've spent almost no draft capital and very little FA money on the offense on anyone but Josh Allen. And Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones have both started to look good the past two games, Ducasse has been pretty good, easily outplaying his $1.2 mill a year price tag, and the rest were pretty much vet minimum depth types. You left out Dawkins but he's been a terrific pick. Edited October 23, 2018 by Thurman#1
NoSaint Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 18 hours ago, Avisan said: Is this a joke????? Our TEs were what, Scott Chandler? Starting WRs were Donald Jones and David Nelson. Stevie meshed well with Fitz but washed out of the league shortly after he left. Our offensive line consisted of stalwarts like Demetress Bell and Geoff Handgartner and whatever bums we skimmed off of a practice squad to play guard any given week. Wood ended up being a solid center once he moved over but we had NO offensive talent. Pretty much ever single skill player we had under Chan is no longer in this league. I found it stunning when put into context that we had a 7th round qb, 7 and 2 Udfa at wr, udfa as our top rb, 7 at LT
Thurman#1 Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 18 hours ago, Avisan said: This is absolutely revisionist, FYI Buffalo consensus and national musings were that we were good coaching and competent QB play away from being annual contenders for the playoffs, and we backed into the playoffs with a 9-7 record (not our first time) due to a miracle play by the Bengals. The Bills' run defense tanked after the Dareus trade (and the Jags' was significantly bolstered, fancy that), and we went one-and-done in truly embarrassing fashion against the Jags. Is it nice to have the monkey off our back? Sure. Is it a testament to the current HC and GM? Hell nah. Leadership has made several efforts to provide the team with offensive talent, the issue is that they absolutely stink at correctly valuing offensive talent. If his is revisionist, that puts it on the same footing as yours. Yeah, we backed in, but let's see some links of a bunch of forecasts mentioning "being annual contenders for the playoffs." Our recievers were worse than the ones we have now, the right side of the OL was (and is) weak, our LBs were considered very weak with Brown, Humber and Alexander as the expected starters and the safeties looked solid but not nearly as good as they ended up playing. We weren't expected to be good. Yeah, we were very lucky to sneak into the playoffs. But the defense considerably outplaying expectations absolutely came down to the new regime. And that's nonsense about identifying offensive talent. They have put their emphasis on the defense. They've used very little draft capital or FA money on the offense. But of the people they did bring in, Jones and Benjamin are finally beginning to play well, Dawkins looks like a huge success and Ducasse has been pretty solid, a significant FA bargain. The verdict is still out on Allen, of course. That could turn out to be an awful pickup. Or not. Too early to know.
JM57 Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 41 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Good argument for those who disagree with you. In two years they've spent almost no draft capital and very little FA money on the offense on anyone but Josh Allen. And Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones have both started to look good the past two games, Ducasse has been pretty good, easily outplaying his $1.2 mill a year price tag, and the rest were pretty much vet minimum depth types. You left out Dawkins but he's been a terrific pick. I did forget Dawkins and I do agree he was a nice pick. So they've hit on one player out of about 10 on offense. Considering they need to fix 9 positions on offense in the next year or two (assumption here is that they have Allen and Dawkins locked in and no one else is a long term fit) that's not great. Even if you want to include Jones, they still need 8 starters.
twoandfourteen Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 19 hours ago, JMF2006 said: I thought for sure this thread would be about the clap BTW whats wrong with a great D then build the O to be good or great? The fact that it is 2018 & not 1985. The winner of the game is determined by who scored the most points. So, build a team that is designed to score as many points as possible. For ****'s sake, I've had it with the "DEEEEEEFESNE WINZ CHAMPIONSHIPS" & "RUNNNNN THE BALL" nonsense. Throw quickly & often, score 28+ every week & you will beat the stupid teams like the Bills that are busy calculating "field position". 19 hours ago, Maybe Someday said: Yes, because firing the HC every 2 years and starting over is clearly the best way to win. Well, the solution is to stop hiring bad ones that don't have any idea how to run an innovative, modern offense. The real mistake is to waste another year or two on a clueless fossil like McDermott. With the wrong people, all "continuity" gets you is more losses.
twoandfourteen Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 18 hours ago, reddogblitz said: Yet in 5 of the 13 games yesterday (38%), the winning team scored less than 25 points. Your point here does not say what you think it says.
CountDorkula Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Nope. The last two SBs have been won by: 2017) Philly, the #4 defense 2016) The Pats, the #8 defense (and as might be predicted by their bend but don't break nature, the #1 defense against scoring) And the three before that were won by: 2015) Denver, the #1 defense 2014) The Pats, the #13 defense (and the #8 defense against scoring) 2013) Seahawks, the #1 defense And the offenses were #7, #4, #16, #11, and #18 in the same five SBs. Defenses still win SBs. 3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Nope. The last two SBs have been won by: 2017) Philly, the #4 defense 2016) The Pats, the #8 defense (and as might be predicted by their bend but don't break nature, the #1 defense against scoring) And the three before that were won by: 2015) Denver, the #1 defense 2014) The Pats, the #13 defense (and the #8 defense against scoring) 2013) Seahawks, the #1 defense And the offenses were #7, #4, #16, #11, and #18 in the same five SBs. Defenses still win SBs. Top 5 Teams in PPG in 2018 KC NO LAR NE PITT Total Record 26-6-1 Top 5 teams in PTS Allowed Per game Balt Dallas Tennessee LAR Seattle 20-14 (Thanks to the LAR) The other 4 are one game below .500 Build the offense. It works
twoandfourteen Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 16 hours ago, dave mcbride said: This offseason is huge, no doubt. There may have been five-year plans in the USSR, but there are no five-year plans in the NFL. Next season is year 3 of what should be a 3-year plan (4 years max). They have to nail it. To give them the benefit of the doubt a little, they have set themselves up pretty well in terms of draft capital and FA. I don't like the fact that they only have one pick each in the first three rounds, but they will probably be able to move back a little in the first (there are always qb-desperate teams) and pick up another second/third. The Colts' moves last year represent a good model, and their draft picks that they got from the Jets trade are good players. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2018_draft.htm The Bills happen to still be at the top of that list.
BillnutinHouston Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 19 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said: When you don’t have a QB/system in place that is currently capable of scoring lots of points, the only way to win is by ugly rock fights - run the ball and play defense. Obviously, the hope is that Allen develops into the next Aaron Rodgers. Some of you act as if McDermott prefers this. It’s a hand he’s been dealt and I think the league frowns upon forfeits so here we are. Your reference to "the hand he's been dealt" sounds very passive. Didn't HE make the moves that resulted in this roster, that put us in this position?
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, BillnutinHouston said: Your reference to "the hand he's been dealt" sounds very passive. Didn't HE make the moves that resulted in this roster, that put us in this position? He did what he had to do to get a QB and get the teams cap in order. You don’t have to like it, and you can even think it’s the wrong approach, but to say it’s evidence he believes in ground and pound and not throwing the ball is just wrong. 3
twoandfourteen Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 16 hours ago, John from Riverside said: Peter I like you as a poster here but I feel you are flat out wrong..... Rex Ryan inherited what was one of the most talented roster's the bills have ever fielded (not as good as the Super Bowl years...but still) And he took a defense that was poised to be top 5 and he DESTROYED it The instant grat crowd cannot handle this fact Yes, waiting 15-20 years for the Bills to be innovative & entertaining is soooo "entitled millennial". 15 hours ago, Rigotz said: The only reply that matters and shuts down this thread immediately: Bill Belichick was/is hired as a defense first coach who also happened to trip over the best QB to ever play the game, allowing him an almost unfathomable margin for error as a defensive coach since his offense can score lots & lots of points whenever it wants. The end. Fixed it for you.
mjt328 Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 19 hours ago, cgg716 said: I’m not a doom and gloom guy normally but he has got to go for a simple reason, what he is attempting to build is no longer effective in the NFL. We can not be defense first, not with these rules, we cannot have play calling from the 1970s, unable to take advantage of the rules. And two coordinators now have done this. People that defend him will point to the talent, 11 pts a game in a league where 35 is routine runs so much deeper than that. We saw Gailey score plenty of points with the same talent level. Innovate or die, McDermott can’t innovate and he could ruin Allen out of that stubbornness. The Rams and Bears did it, firing two more accomplished coaches to catch up to the league, the Bills have to as well 1. The Bills are not trying to build a low-scoring/defensive-based team. That's why they traded away talent and used the draft capitol to pick the quarterback with the biggest ceiling. 2. Rookie quarterbacks almost always result in struggling offenses, which finish near the bottom of the league. 3. Our rookie quarterback was especially raw, and even less prepared than others in his draft class. We knew this when we drafted him. 4. The front office invested in some weapons, particularly Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones. But receivers are always going to look terrible when the quarterback is struggling. 1
Dopey Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 31 minutes ago, CountDorkula said: Top 5 Teams in PPG in 2018 KC NO LAR NE PITT Total Record 26-6-1 Top 5 teams in PTS Allowed Per game Balt Dallas Tennessee LAR Seattle 20-14 (Thanks to the LAR) The other 4 are one game below .500 Build the offense. It works Thurman brought up sb winners, you're brining up 1/2 of 2018 season winners. Let's visit this after 16 games. Then again after the sb. Until then, I'll take the sb winner point of view. Jmo. 1
twoandfourteen Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said: If his is revisionist, that puts it on the same footing as yours. Yeah, we backed in, but let's see some links of a bunch of forecasts mentioning "being annual contenders for the playoffs." Our recievers were worse than the ones we have now, the right side of the OL was (and is) weak, our LBs were considered very weak with Brown, Humber and Alexander as the expected starters and the safeties looked solid but not nearly as good as they ended up playing. We weren't expected to be good. Yeah, we were very lucky to sneak into the playoffs. But the defense considerably outplaying expectations absolutely came down to the new regime. And that's nonsense about identifying offensive talent. They have put their emphasis on the defense. They've used very little draft capital or FA money on the offense. But of the people they did bring in, Jones and Benjamin are finally beginning to play well, Dawkins looks like a huge success and Ducasse has been pretty solid, a significant FA bargain. The verdict is still out on Allen, of course. That could turn out to be an awful pickup. Or not. Too early to know. Which immediately proves they have no idea what they are doing in the modern NFL.
Augie Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 Can we fire him more than once for different reasons? 1
billsfan_34 Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 20 hours ago, cgg716 said: I’m not a doom and gloom guy normally but he has got to go for a simple reason, what he is attempting to build is no longer effective in the NFL. We can not be defense first, not with these rules, we cannot have play calling from the 1970s, unable to take advantage of the rules. And two coordinators now have done this. People that defend him will point to the talent, 11 pts a game in a league where 35 is routine runs so much deeper than that. We saw Gailey score plenty of points with the same talent level. Innovate or die, McDermott can’t innovate and he could ruin Allen out of that stubbornness. The Rams and Bears did it, firing two more accomplished coaches to catch up to the league, the Bills have to as well We can’t ontinue on with this coaching carousel. The trick is for McD to hire the right people on the O side of the ball and let them do what they do best. Also, the lack of talent on O is evident and you cant pull water out of a rock. Lets relax, get through this season and have an amazing offseason- we have the resources for it.
Big Gun Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, billsfan_34 said: We can’t ontinue on with this coaching carousel. The trick is for McD to hire the right people on the O side of the ball and let them do what they do best. Also, the lack of talent on O is evident and you cant pull water out of a rock. Lets relax, get through this season and have an amazing offseason- we have the resources for it. So even knowing the coach was a wrong hire you want to stick with it just because? Nope keep hiring and firing until you have found the right guy. 1
Rock-A-Bye Beasley Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: The difference being that McVay is reloading, not rebuilding. He joined a team with a GM who's been in place, building a solid roster for years and picking the #1 overall QB the year before he got there. The Bills did not have a roster that would have made a reload tenable. They weren't good. The Rams had build a strong defense that was very young, and had brought in Gurley and Goff before McVay arrived, and they were in good shape with the salary cap. But yeah, you make a good point, McVay was a lot better than Fisher. And you're certainly right that you don't always have to start over. Do you really think the 2015 Bills had enough talent to reload around? I don't, especially when Whaley had built a very mediocre squad while treating his salary cap situation like a sailor in port treats his pocket money. If you do think we could have reloaded, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Playoffs?
CountDorkula Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Dopey said: Thurman brought up sb winners, you're brining up 1/2 of 2018 season winners. Let's visit this after 16 games. Then again after the sb. Until then, I'll take the sb winner point of view. Jmo. So we can just cherry pick stats we want to use, and not the ones most relevant to this year..... The Eagles had to score 41 points to win the SB last year. Defense.... The year before that the pats had to score 34. Defense..... Edited October 23, 2018 by CountDorkula 1
Matt_In_NH Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 I dont think they are more focused on defense than offense in the big picture. I mean they have built up the defense first but that does not really say they favor defense over offense. Given the state of the team they inherited, that is the way it happened. It takes more time to get a QB and develop him than to get some nice defensive pieces.
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