Avisan Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said: As always, you talk, but you never make the point you think you make. It's a weird kind of underachievement, but even when the Bills don't underachieve, you do. You try first to say we didn't underachieve by pointing out the after-season rankings ... ONE rankings. More, the rankings you point out, if they're totally factual and we don't challenge them at all prove precisely the opposite of what you're trying to prove. When you average out those ranking scores - the ones in your own link - they come out to 20.7 ... they say the Bills average out at between the 20th and 21st best team in the league. And yet, the 20 links you're trying so sadly and unsuccessfully to answer predicted before the season that the Bills would average out at 26.47. Meaning they were predicted to end up between 26th and 27th and they actually ended up 20th and 21st if we completely believe your link. What a joke, Avi. You proved they over-achieved. And crowed about it, thinking you'd done the opposite. What a joke. As for your second point, of course they'd begun the teardown. They'd inherited a sub-mediocre roster that was paid as if they Super Bowl contenders. But it was you who used the word under-achieved. You don't underachieve this year with last year's roster. It makes no sense. You under-achieve or over-achieve based on who is on your team. Judging it by people who aren't on your team is ... what? ... under-imagined-achievement? Imaginary-achievement-guessing? And the 2016 Bills team didn't underachieve much either. They weren't especially talented. Offensive starters: Tyrod Taylor, LeSean McCoy, Marquise Goodwin, Sammy Watkins, Robert Woods, Charles Clay, Cordy Glenn, Richie Incognito, Eric Wood, John Miller and Jordan Mills. Defensive starters: Adolphus Washington, Kyle Williams, Marcell Dareus/Corbin Bryant, Preston Brown, Lorenzo Alexander, Zach Brown, Jerry Hughes, Ronald Darby, Stephon Gilmore, Corey Graham, Aaron Williams/Ihedigbo And with that lineup they'd put themselves in cap trouble. Pitiful. The decent players there are either still here (McCoy, Clay, Kyle Williams, Lorax, Hughes), or off the team due to salary cap decisions (Gilmore (performing very well), Watkins, Goodwin, Dareus (perhaps as much a result of not showing up to meeting as a cap decision but these three are still underperforming their contracts), Robert Woods (having a terrific year, the real major loss of these cap casualties), not scheme fits (Darby, who's having a bad year but I think will be fine down the road). Or retired due to injury or craziness (Aaron Williams, Eric Wood, Incognito). The rest are nonentities. That was a mediocre lineup that was being wildly overpaid ... to win a mediocre seven games. Yeah, this is why I don't do this with you The team underperformed relative to previous years by every objective measure, and you got hung up on a semantic glitch because that's what you do, despite it being pretty clear what I was talking about, and you proceeded to do what you always do, which is making ridiculously long-winded arrogance-laden posts because somewhere in your mind you think devoting more time to winning arguments on the internet makes you smarter You're an absolute toxic presence, and masking it in long-windedness and verbosity only exacerbates the way you make every discussion you enter an exercise in exhaustion You don't learn, you don't change your mind, your sole reason for existence on these forums is to tell people they're wrong with a higher word count than anyone feels like dealing with 1
Thurman#1 Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 On 10/23/2018 at 2:21 AM, Avisan said: Buffalo consensus and national musings were that we were good coaching and competent QB play away from being annual contenders for the playoffs, Fourth time now I've asked you for all these national musings you reference here. Fourth time I've asked you for any article mentioning "being annual contenders for the playoffs" or anything like it. And strangely enough ... I'M STILL WAITING, AVI!!!!!
Avisan Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said: Fourth time now I've asked you for all these national musings you reference here. Fourth time I've asked you for any article mentioning "being annual contenders for the playoffs" or anything like it. And strangely enough ... I'M STILL WAITING, AVI!!!!! Keep waiting I don't care enough to dig up every radio or TV segment I listened to or every article I read several years ago It just isn't worth my time and you'll move the goalposts anyway, because you're not actually here to do anything but stroke your own ego You literally pointed to over a dozen links to post-regime-change power-rankings in a discussion regarding the state of the team pre-McDermott because being right on the internet is more important to you than staying on task My original post was challenging the notion that it was a given that the team needed a total makeover, because very few people thought that in 2016. I stand by that idea, and I'm content to leave it at that. See a couple posts up for the 2014 and 2016 stats/context for that belief. Cheers, and stop clogging up threads.
Thurman#1 Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Avisan said: Yeah, this is why I don't do this with you The team underperformed relative to previous years by every objective measure, and you got hung up on a semantic glitch because that's what you do, despite it being pretty clear what I was talking about, and you proceeded to do what you always do, which is making ridiculously long-winded arrogance-laden posts because somewhere in your mind you think devoting more time to winning arguments on the internet makes you smarter You're an absolute toxic presence, and masking it in long-windedness and verbosity only exacerbates the way you make every discussion you enter an exercise in exhaustion You don't learn, you don't change your mind, your sole reason for existence on these forums is to tell people they're wrong with a higher word count than anyone feels like dealing with You don't do this with me because I don't engage with you except when you say something that doesn't make much sense, and because of that you nearly always lose the arguments. You're losing the argument here and you don't respond with a single specific. Again, still waiting for all those national musings about "being annual contenders for the playoffs" you talked about.
Thurman#1 Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) On 10/23/2018 at 8:44 PM, Thurman#1 said: Yeah, we backed in, but let's see some links of a bunch of forecasts mentioning "being annual contenders for the playoffs." 25 minutes ago, Avisan said: Keep waiting I don't care enough to dig up every radio or TV segment I listened to or every article I read several years ago It just isn't worth my time and you'll move the goalposts anyway, because you're not actually here to do anything but stroke your own ego You literally pointed to over a dozen links to post-regime-change power-rankings in a discussion regarding the state of the team pre-McDermott because being right on the internet is more important to you than staying on task My original post was challenging the notion that it was a given that the team needed a total makeover, because very few people thought that in 2016. I stand by that idea, and I'm content to leave it at that. See a couple posts up for the 2014 and 2016 stats/context for that belief. Cheers, and stop clogging up threads. Ah, the sound of a man surrendering while still trying to insist he's right. The goal posts aren't moving, Avi. I've challenged you five times now, in pretty much the same exact words each time. You aren't coming up with any because there aren't any. But hey, let's make sure the goal posts aren't moving. I challenge you again, in exactly the same words I used in the first challenge. I'll just copy it right to here. You said this: On 10/23/2018 at 2:21 AM, Avisan said: This is absolutely revisionist, FYI Buffalo consensus and national musings were that we were good coaching and competent QB play away from being annual contenders for the playoffs, and we backed into the playoffs with a 9-7 record (not our first time) due to a miracle play by the Bengals. And on Tuesday at 8:44, I said this: On 10/23/2018 at 8:44 PM, Thurman#1 said: If his is revisionist, that puts it on the same footing as yours. Yeah, we backed in, but let's see some links of a bunch of forecasts mentioning "being annual contenders for the playoffs." Goalposts ain't moving, Avi. You just don't have a football to kick through them. Still waiting. Edited October 26, 2018 by Thurman#1
BillsMafia13 Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 31 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Ah, the sound of a man surrendering while still trying to insist he's right. The goal posts aren't moving, Avi. I've challenged you five times now, in pretty much the same exact words each time. You aren't coming up with any because there aren't any. But hey, let's make sure the goal posts aren't moving. I challenge you again, in exactly the same words I used in the first challenge. I'll just copy it right to here. You said this: And on Tuesday at 8:44, I said this: Goalposts ain't moving, Avi. You just don't have a football to kick through them. Still waiting. Deep breathes big guy, its just a topic about a game
Avisan Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 10 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Ah, the sound of a man surrendering while still trying to insist he's right. The goal posts aren't moving, Avi. I've challenged you five times now, in pretty much the same exact words each time. You aren't coming up with any because there aren't any. But hey, let's make sure the goal posts aren't moving. I challenge you again, in exactly the same words I used in the first challenge. I'll just copy it right to here. You said this: And on Tuesday at 8:44, I said this: Goalposts ain't moving, Avi. You just don't have a football to kick through them. Still waiting. Eh, I'm going to try to give you the benefit of the doubt for a second here and pretend you're posting in good faith. You live(d) in Japan, right? You're overly reliant on print media relative to the average Bills fan. Few people outside of Buffalo care enough to write a serious, non-comedic, autopsy about the Bills with much knowledge, we're not a particularly relevant team. Radio/TV segments mentioning the Bills in passing or a national-level figure making a guest appearance in local media is about the best we get. A "musing" is not a wave of print articles, it's a pondering, or a contemplation, which is where you've moved the goalposts already. Those of us who were around under the Rex regime were exposed to more non-print discussion of the status of the team, and his performance with the roster we had. I'm not the only poster to ever point out the fallacy of this team "needing" a rebuild. That idea is routinely challenged, and outside of a few dogmatic posters, is rarely doubled down on, because people who lived here know it isn't true. You'll note the poster I actually quoted isn't the one defending himself tooth and nail here. My post, however, and the viewpoint it represents, challenged your perception of the team at said point in time, so you jumped in. I said something that "didn't make sense" to you, so you couldn't help yourself. I could, if I wanted to, spend hours digging through the internet archives to find relevant media segments to support the specific claim of musings. They're there. I know they're there, because I heard them and saw them. Most posters here have been exposed to them, too. The idea of a bloated Whaley roster is relatively recent-- the power rankings you yourself posted almost universally express puzzlement at the rebuild decision! But that would take hours of digging, and as I said, it's not even a little bit worth it to me. You jumped into the conversation, and when I opted not to fully engage with you, you rebumped the thread. My point was made to those it was intended to be made to, and I'm content with my post regarding 2014 and 2016 stats and the context behind them as a proxy support of my claim. I don't need to prove myself right to you. Again, I could, but the time investment isn't worth it to me, and everyone else got the memo. I don't expect you to accept this. You'll chalk this one down as a W and get whatever temporary psychological boost you need out of feeling that way. You do you, man. This conversation is utterly unproductive, nobody else cares about it, and I've hit my effort limit for it. Cheers.
Maybe Someday Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 14 minutes ago, Avisan said: Eh, I'm going to try to give you the benefit of the doubt for a second here and pretend you're posting in good faith. You live(d) in Japan, right? You're overly reliant on print media relative to the average Bills fan. Few people outside of Buffalo care enough to write a serious, non-comedic, autopsy about the Bills with much knowledge, we're not a particularly relevant team. Radio/TV segments mentioning the Bills in passing or a national-level figure making a guest appearance in local media is about the best we get. A "musing" is not a wave of print articles, it's a pondering, or a contemplation, which is where you've moved the goalposts already. Those of us who were around under the Rex regime were exposed to more non-print discussion of the status of the team, and his performance with the roster we had. I'm not the only poster to ever point out the fallacy of this team "needing" a rebuild. That idea is routinely challenged, and outside of a few dogmatic posters, is rarely doubled down on, because people who lived here know it isn't true. You'll note the poster I actually quoted isn't the one defending himself tooth and nail here. My post, however, and the viewpoint it represents, challenged your perception of the team at said point in time, so you jumped in. I said something that "didn't make sense" to you, so you couldn't help yourself. I could, if I wanted to, spend hours digging through the internet archives to find relevant media segments to support the specific claim of musings. They're there. I know they're there, because I heard them and saw them. Most posters here have been exposed to them, too. The idea of a bloated Whaley roster is relatively recent-- the power rankings you yourself posted almost universally express puzzlement at the rebuild decision! But that would take hours of digging, and as I said, it's not even a little bit worth it to me. You jumped into the conversation, and when I opted not to fully engage with you, you rebumped the thread. My point was made to those it was intended to be made to, and I'm content with my post regarding 2014 and 2016 stats and the context behind them as a proxy support of my claim. I don't need to prove myself right to you. Again, I could, but the time investment isn't worth it to me, and everyone else got the memo. I don't expect you to accept this. You'll chalk this one down as a W and get whatever temporary psychological boost you need out of feeling that way. You do you, man. This conversation is utterly unproductive, nobody else cares about it, and I've hit my effort limit for it. Cheers. That would be me...Thurman's been doing it for me so I didn't feel the need to lol. He and I are more on the same page regarding the topic at hand so I figured I'd let him take the reigns...especially after it seemed to go from a discussion to an argument. We all have differences in opinion but arguing with someone on a chat board isn't my style. I think it's time for us all to just agree to disagree. You and many others obviously don't like McD or Beane and want them gone less than halfway into year #2. That's your right to feel that way. I see that as being counterproductive and would be utterly shocked if it actually happened. I think there's a better chance of me winning the Mega Millions tonight than McD or Beane getting fired this year. My final thoughts on the subject... We've had regime after regime think that they could come in, add a few pieces and win now but it's never worked. I don't recall hearing any of those prior regimes speak of building an organization (not just the team) from the foundation up with the goal of building a perennial winner. That is what makes McBeane different to me. They didn't come in saying they could win now, they said the opposite. They set the expectation that they wanted to build the franchise into one that truly is in the playoff discussion year after year...by more than just a few talking heads here and there on TV. Some like to point out how it's because we've only hired bad coaches. My question to them is what caliber of coach do you think we'll be able to hire if our 3rd straight coach only lasts 2 years? That would only add to the perception that I believe exists around the league that we're an unstable, joke of a franchise. IMO, we'd have no shot to get the next offensive mastermind unless they absolutely love Allen more than any other QB on a team with a HC opening, which is doubtful. Even if we do, it's not like we'll suddenly be good I also don't understand how so many can already conclude with such certainty that McBeane cannot build an offense just because it hasn't happened yet. So I'm not having patience just to have patience like many of us have done in the past. I'm having patience because I like that we finally have a regime that is not doing the same old thing as all the others have in the past. I think they deserve a chance to continue moving forward based on the 9 wins last year and what appears to be 2 solid drafts. This season sucks so far but I expected it to from the start, maybe not quite to this degree but we're playing so many young players that are still learning that it's not a total shock to me. I'm more worried about the young guys getting experience and developing than I am about wins this year. If we see no changes by this time next year, then I'll be on board with you, I'm just not there yet. Cheers Avi!!
Avisan Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 57 minutes ago, Maybe Someday said: That would be me...Thurman's been doing it for me so I didn't feel the need to lol. He and I are more on the same page regarding the topic at hand so I figured I'd let him take the reigns...especially after it seemed to go from a discussion to an argument. We all have differences in opinion but arguing with someone on a chat board isn't my style. I think it's time for us all to just agree to disagree. You and many others obviously don't like McD or Beane and want them gone less than halfway into year #2. That's your right to feel that way. I see that as being counterproductive and would be utterly shocked if it actually happened. I think there's a better chance of me winning the Mega Millions tonight than McD or Beane getting fired this year. My final thoughts on the subject... We've had regime after regime think that they could come in, add a few pieces and win now but it's never worked. I don't recall hearing any of those prior regimes speak of building an organization (not just the team) from the foundation up with the goal of building a perennial winner. That is what makes McBeane different to me. They didn't come in saying they could win now, they said the opposite. They set the expectation that they wanted to build the franchise into one that truly is in the playoff discussion year after year...by more than just a few talking heads here and there on TV. Some like to point out how it's because we've only hired bad coaches. My question to them is what caliber of coach do you think we'll be able to hire if our 3rd straight coach only lasts 2 years? That would only add to the perception that I believe exists around the league that we're an unstable, joke of a franchise. IMO, we'd have no shot to get the next offensive mastermind unless they absolutely love Allen more than any other QB on a team with a HC opening, which is doubtful. Even if we do, it's not like we'll suddenly be good I also don't understand how so many can already conclude with such certainty that McBeane cannot build an offense just because it hasn't happened yet. So I'm not having patience just to have patience like many of us have done in the past. I'm having patience because I like that we finally have a regime that is not doing the same old thing as all the others have in the past. I think they deserve a chance to continue moving forward based on the 9 wins last year and what appears to be 2 solid drafts. This season sucks so far but I expected it to from the start, maybe not quite to this degree but we're playing so many young players that are still learning that it's not a total shock to me. I'm more worried about the young guys getting experience and developing than I am about wins this year. If we see no changes by this time next year, then I'll be on board with you, I'm just not there yet. Cheers Avi!! Cheers bud, thanks for chiming in. I think Marrone was the best HC we've had in a while. I think Hackett was still taking his lumps, and Saint Doug is a colossal a-hole on a personal level, but he was a really solid overall coach and I think his Jags performance bears that out. Not great, but solid. I wish he'd stuck around. Rex was a tire fire, and I think the Ryan Bros are the perfect example of how a league can pass someone by. Neither one of them are particularly detail-oriented, and you can't get away with that in the modern NFL. Losing Schwartz in the process was some unfortunate salt in the wound. The struggle to find a HC that can manage both sides of the ball has been maddening. While I certainly don't think the rebuild was necessary for the reasons I've outlined, the idea of a unified HC and FO forming a complete team in their image is certainly appealing due to our 21st century futility. I'm skeptical of this rebuild in part due to the inexperience of its executors and mainly because of the massive talent disparity between the old crew and the new crew on offense. We need two or three new starting lineman, a completely new WR corps (maybe Zay can continue to find a role?), a new TE, and our QB is a major question mark. It's a rough look moving forward, and in the time it takes to rebuild it we'll likely lose K. Williams, J. Hughes, and a few other pieces. I'm just really disappointed, because even if everything goes perfect we're still 2+ seasons off from being competitive. Even moves like ditching Kerley bug me because he's forged a successful career on being unimpressive but reliable. I really hope you're right and they pull this off, and for now we'll just have to wait and see. TL;DR While I like the idea of a minor rebuild, the execution concerns me. 1
billsfan89 Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 On 10/22/2018 at 1:02 PM, Avisan said: Is this a joke????? Our TEs were what, Scott Chandler? Starting WRs were Donald Jones and David Nelson. Stevie meshed well with Fitz but washed out of the league shortly after he left. Our offensive line consisted of stalwarts like Demetress Bell and Geoff Handgartner and whatever bums we skimmed off of a practice squad to play guard any given week. Wood ended up being a solid center once he moved over but we had NO offensive talent. Pretty much ever single skill player we had under Chan is no longer in this league. To be fair the O-line did have Eric Wood and Andy Levitre two very good interior players they also had Urbik who was pretty good for a hot minute. Stevie only faded because he got hurt the last year he was here even David Nelson was playing well until he got hurt. I think the O-line was a bit better although the skill positions were mostly comparable. The one major difference in the 2011 offense to now is the QB play. Fitz got off to a super hot start and even subpar Fitz is an upgrade over what the team has now (A super raw rookie and outright garbage.) That being said I am not sure how bad the scheme is vs. how bad the QB play and supporting talent it honestly. I would venture to say it is all bad.
Avisan Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 1 hour ago, billsfan89 said: To be fair the O-line did have Eric Wood and Andy Levitre two very good interior players they also had Urbik who was pretty good for a hot minute. Stevie only faded because he got hurt the last year he was here even David Nelson was playing well until he got hurt. I think the O-line was a bit better although the skill positions were mostly comparable. The one major difference in the 2011 offense to now is the QB play. Fitz got off to a super hot start and even subpar Fitz is an upgrade over what the team has now (A super raw rookie and outright garbage.) That being said I am not sure how bad the scheme is vs. how bad the QB play and supporting talent it honestly. I would venture to say it is all bad. The O-line was probably about 60% complete with Fitz, and he marked a lot of its deficiencies via the speed with which he got rid of the ball. Even during FJ's monster season he was only averaging like 1.5 yards before contact and had a stupid high YAC average. Dude was unstoppable before he got hurt that season, that season's implosion was extra tough to watch. Nelson's big thing was his sure hands, he got a case of the dropsies even before the injury and the injury mostly just cemented things. The Goon Squad years were certainly entertaining, though, I'd take that Chan Gailey offense in a heartbeat over the current iteration. Here's to hoping Josh Allen manages to put it together somehow.
billsfan89 Posted October 26, 2018 Posted October 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, Avisan said: The O-line was probably about 60% complete with Fitz, and he marked a lot of its deficiencies via the speed with which he got rid of the ball. Even during FJ's monster season he was only averaging like 1.5 yards before contact and had a stupid high YAC average. Dude was unstoppable before he got hurt that season, that season's implosion was extra tough to watch. Nelson's big thing was his sure hands, he got a case of the dropsies even before the injury and the injury mostly just cemented things. The Goon Squad years were certainly entertaining, though, I'd take that Chan Gailey offense in a heartbeat over the current iteration. Here's to hoping Josh Allen manages to put it together somehow. Chan's offense did the best it could masking the general deficiencies of the players and maximizing what the players could do well. The scheme was masterful in building the calls and play design around the talent. With the Jets in 2015 Chan had a good degree of success (However the Jets had a much higher level of talent in 2015 than the Bills did in 2011, Brandon Marshall and Eric Decker were a good WR 1 and WR 2 combo and their offensive line was nasty and Ivory was a solid running back) but in 2016 when the talent level regressed the offense was among the worst in the league. So its not like everytime Chan was able to take crap and make it serviceable even in 2010 with the Bills that offense was hot garbage. 1
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