McDermott's Judgement on offense is impaired.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Love the leap of logic in this thread title.

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by joesixpack

[Bill_with_it]

11 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

Love the leap of logic in this thread title.

 

Yup it’s tremendously bad. 

[The_Dude]

McDermott is a GREAT defensive coordinator. 

 

Hes an idiot when it comes to offense and that has me very concerned for Josh Allen’s future. 

 

I think the Pegula’s might have to fire him to get a guy who can work with Allen if that’s even possible. 

[buffalobloodfloridahome]

23 hours ago, Yav said:

The Bills have problems with their OL and WR. 

Things would be much calmer around here if everyone would realize this isn't going to be a good year for them. The Bills need to clear cap space and right now they are playing with little to no talent at WR and OL. Doesn't matter who the OC was going to be they just don't have the talent on that side of the ball to compete. 

 

The Bills are going to have cap space at the end of the year and will be able to address some issues in FA and they will have good draft capital to move around the board and get the players they want. 

The big ? is do they know how to draft talent on the offensive side of the ball. We can see a dominant defense being built and that's awesome. Now will they make the right moves and actually get our offense to be at least competent. O line and WR's can be difficult to draft and sometimes you get great value outside of the first rd and get huge busts in the first. Free agency can be a slippery slope and you can easily over pay. 

 

Nothing in our front offices track record so far has shown they know how to stack offensive personnel and that needs to be addressed heavily this offseason.

[formerlyofCtown]

On 10/19/2018 at 11:38 AM, BillsRdue said:

And to think, he was McD's #1 choice for OC last year, then comes Dennison, now DaBoll. This really makes me think that this FO and HC have no clue as to how to approach the offensive side of the ball. I hope I am wrong and DaBoll proves with Anderson that his scheme will work with marginal QB talent as long as it is executed. After seeing Rosen get obliterated last night, it's a good thing that Allen can take a few weeks to recover and get some insight.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/cardinals-fire-mike-mccoy-after-humiliating-effort-against-broncos-byron-leftwich-named-oc/

 

Edit:  I added case history from a later post for sake of discussion.

 

Here's our case history:

#1 - wants Mike McCoy as his OC - is turned down. (McCoy sh*ts the bed in Arizona and is fired)

#2 - hires Rico Dennison

#3 - passes on Patrick Mahomes

#4 - lets Goodwin, Woods, Watkins walk- drafts Zay Jones.

#5 - has a roster with 2 FB's ( DiMarco and Tolbert) and no dominant run game

#6 - goes into the season with Tyrod and Peterman

#7 - starts Peterman in playoff race- He throws 5 INT in ONE HALF- benched.

#8 - brings in Kelvin Benjamin as the WR savior

#9 - scores 3 points in a playoff game.

#10 - fires Rico, hires Dab

#11- loses 3 OL, brings in Newhouse, Bodine - starts Miller, Groy and Ducasse

#12 - fills WR needs with Foster, McCloud, Proehl, cuts Streater, keeps Holmes

#13 - brings in McCarron as his shiny new QB, passes on Bridgewater.

#14- ships McCarron out for a 5th

#15- starts Peterman a second time and gets his ass spanked 47-3

#16- forced to start his rookie and does not prepare for a backup plan in case of emergency.

#17-finds his QB in Derek Anderson who hasn't played in a meaningful game in 7 years.

 

And I am sure other posters can add to this growing list. This topic is meant to discuss whether we believe McDermott is capable of making any decisions that will lead to improvement on the offensive side of the ball. So far the offense has regressed into a shell of an already weak unit. 

With cap space and draft picks next year can we even trust that this FO can make the right moves.

 

Um we traded Watkins before he could walk on us. None of the three had any interest in signing with TT as QB.  Way to twist things though.

[Boatdrinks]

5 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Um we traded Watkins before he could walk on us. None of the three had any interest in signing with TT as QB.  Way to twist things though.

With the exception of the Watkins error and #’s 7 and 8 in the incorrect order, the list is a fairly accurate assessment. I don’t think the OP was trying to twist anything, just a couple of mistakes. There might not have been a reasonable way to retain Woods ( and Goodwin had yet to dedicate himself to football) but there was a way to keep SW in the fold. 

[GreggTX]

Somehow, people have missed the most important point. We're rebuilding. Also, I'm happy for Woods and Goodwin, but they weren't worth crap when they played here. They're pretty good now, but still not probowl worthy. Perhaps you'd like Whaley back too.  Be patient. They've put a decent defense together and will have a ton of cap space and draft picks coming up. I agree they made some mistakes, but every GM has hits and misses. You also left out the end of the 17 year skid mark laid by so many others.

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

With the exception of the Watkins error and #’s 7 and 8 in the incorrect order, the list is a fairly accurate assessment. I don’t think the OP was trying to twist anything, just a couple of mistakes. There might not have been a reasonable way to retain Woods ( and Goodwin had yet to dedicate himself to football) but there was a way to keep SW in the fold. 

And Sammy is underperforming given his draft status

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

4 hours ago, GreggTX said:

Be patient. They've put a decent defense together and will have a ton of cap space and draft picks coming up. I agree they made some mistakes, but every GM has hits and misses. You also left out the end of the 17 year skid mark laid by so many others.

 

This is the point of the post. Even with cap space and picks do we trust this group to bring in the right people on offense. So far, the only mild hit is Ivory and that's a stretch.

4 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

With the exception of the Watkins error and #’s 7 and 8 in the incorrect order, the list is a fairly accurate assessment. I don’t think the OP was trying to twist anything, just a couple of mistakes. There might not have been a reasonable way to retain Woods ( and Goodwin had yet to dedicate himself to football) but there was a way to keep SW in the fold. 

Thanks, I wasn't aiming for any order, just trying to flush out the perplexing decisions on the offensive and I mean offensive side of the ball.

[Happy]

4 hours ago, GreggTX said:

Somehow, people have missed the most important point. We're rebuilding. Also, I'm happy for Woods and Goodwin, but they weren't worth crap when they played here. They're pretty good now, but still not probowl worthy. Perhaps you'd like Whaley back too.  Be patient. They've put a decent defense together and will have a ton of cap space and draft picks coming up. I agree they made some mistakes, but every GM has hits and misses. You also left out the end of the 17 year skid mark laid by so many others.

 

Woods wasn't that bad when he was here, at least he got open and caught the ball.  Goodwin hardly played, so yeah, he wasn't worth much.

I'd like Whaley's Pro Personnel department back.

[RaoulDuke79]

On 10/19/2018 at 11:45 AM, BarleyNY said:

Some coaches can’t perform outside of their wheelhouses. Some situations or challenges are simply out of their scope.

This is referred to as the Peter Principle. 

[Boatdrinks]

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

And Sammy is underperforming given his draft status

Means nothing in the big picture of what he might be doing in Buffalo. He’d likely be a bigger part of the Bills offense if still here than on a team with a plethora of targets. ( still he managed the most TDs of any Rams WR last year with 8. Using two first rounders to select SW pretty much assured he’d never live up to some mythical draft status. Two firsts should be reserved for QBs only. 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Boatdrinks

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Means nothing in the big picture of what he might be doing in Buffalo. He’d likely be a bigger part of the Bills offense if still here than on a team with a plethora of targets. ( still he managed the most TDs of any Rams WR last year with 8. Using two first rounders to select SW pretty much assured he’d never live up to some mythical draft status. Two firsts should be reserved for QBs only. 

Can’t keep on beating current bills mgt over what past management has done

[Boatdrinks]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Can’t keep on beating current bills mgt over what past management has done

You brought up SWs draft status, not me. Obviously that draft decision had zero to do with current Bills management. 

[ROCBillsBeliever]

On 10/19/2018 at 2:23 PM, hondo in seattle said:

It's interesting how some coordinators will excel one place and flame out another.

 

I guess roster talent and HC involvement matter.  

 

How dare you use logic to formulate a reasoned argument? Do you not know where you are, good sir? 

 

[BarleyNY]

12 hours ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

This is referred to as the Peter Principle. 

 

The Peter Principle simply states that people who show competency will be promoted until they’re at a level where they’re incompetent. Think Michael Scott.

 

I was referring more to coaches who are inflexible in their schemes or are only good with certain types of people. Coaches who can recruit (sell!) and are good at leading college kids but can’t effectively coach grown men (some of whom make more money than them) is a good example.

 

McCoy might just need to be under the right kind of head coach to thrive. As a head coach he sure fit the Peter Principle rule well though. 

[SoTier]

On 10/19/2018 at 11:56 AM, YoloinOhio said:

Though i wasn’t initially a fan of the hire, i can’t even fathom that. He’s now had to prepare 3 different QBs to start a game in 7 weeks, one a raw rookie and one with no TC who was sitting on a beach 10 days ago. He has limited talent to work with as well. Firing him right now would be ridiculous. 

^^^

On 10/19/2018 at 12:15 PM, Royale with Cheese said:

 

It's not just for continuity.  What decent OC would want to take this job when the previous OC was giving a QB that throws INT's at a historical rate, a raw rookie who wasn't supposed to start and a guy who was on vacation just 10 days ago....fired after 6 games?

 

Isn't part of the OC's job to evaluate the talent available to his offense?  How can an experienced offensive coordinator NOT recognize that Nate Peterman's very serious physical limitations make him a questionable backup for even the most experienced, durable QB playing behind a great OL, much less for a team without even a solid OL, a non-NFL caliber WR corps, and an anemic running game?  How can a competent OC name Peterman the starter at the beginning of the season when his teammates are not behind him?  How could Daboll not "feel" that the team wasn't behind Peterson despite his supposedly good preseason showing?  If Daboll is responsible for these decisions, then he's incompetent to be a NFL OC.  If Daboll's opinion on offensive players' talent and likelihood for success is being trumped by McDermott or somebody else in the Bills FO, this team is so dysfunctional that bringing in another OC -- if anyone would be desperate enough to take the position -- would be useless.

 

On 10/19/2018 at 12:05 PM, Yav said:

The Bills have problems with their OL and WR. 

Things would be much calmer around here if everyone would realize this isn't going to be a good year for them. The Bills need to clear cap space and right now they are playing with little to no talent at WR and OL. Doesn't matter who the OC was going to be they just don't have the talent on that side of the ball to compete. 

 

The Bills are going to have cap space at the end of the year and will be able to address some issues in FA and they will have good draft capital to move around the board and get the players they want. 

 

Excuse me, but the lack of NFL caliber players on the OL and in the WR corps is NOT something that McDermott and Beane inherited.   They made the decisions that resulted in the hot mess they have in both units.  They gutted the competent WR corps (Watkins, Woods, Goodwin) they inherited in 2017 and replaced them with trash.  The OL wasn't great in 2017, and then they lost Wood and Incognito to retirement, and replaced them with career backups and bottom-feeder FAs.  Then they traded away Glenn.  That was all before the draft -- a draft that after taking Allen at #7, they didn't bother to draft another offensive player until almost the end of the fifth round despite the desperate need for improvement on the offensive side.  No team can expect to build a decent offense using primarily sixth and seventh round and UDFA OLers and WRs.

[SoTier]

On 10/19/2018 at 12:21 PM, ctk232 said:

The expectations were always to rebuild? We were never supposed to make the playoffs, and we lucked into it more so thanks to Dalton. Then we show up in the wildcard game and can't even score a TD in a 10-3 loss, in what was otherwise a dominant defensive performance and very winnable game? Not going to build off anything with an offense like that. You might be able to "use the momentum" though, but any building off that team would've led to priced out and aged out players and larger cap issues.

 

If you looked at the roster as well, there was very little future talent that wouldn't otherwise be off the team in 2-3 years time. McBeane was always hired for a rebuild, and most new regimes will always build out their new team. Just because we made the playoffs last year doesn't mean anything, Beane even said as much.

 

The excuse this year? There is none, we just have a deplorable offense due to a lot of factors, but this is otherwise expected in a rebuild (especially with this current roster), and is actually more of what was supposed to happen last year until our defense started playing lights out. It's not an excuse so much as it is reality. You can start warming seats once they bring in an actual offense and try to win with those decisions.

 

When do you think that will happen? I'm not optimistic that it will happen any time soon because McDermott doesn't value offense, and he's in charge of personnel decisions.  More distressing is that in the last two drafts, the Bills have seemed to  fixate on particular prospects and be willing to give up too much to get those particular players.  In 2017 and 2018 the Bills got relatively little for the draft capital that they had because they traded up several times.   The success of high draft picks (rounds 1-3) is too iffy too often to make trading up frequently a good strategy.

On 10/19/2018 at 5:44 PM, RiotAct said:

Byron Leftwich huh?  Man, wasn’t he a rookie QB in the NFL only 13-14 years ago?

 

Yes.  I think he was maybe the second QB taken in 2003 behind Carson Palmer.  Lots of Bills fans wanted him, too.

[SoTier]

On 10/20/2018 at 9:02 AM, dubs said:

 

Last time I checked, Brandon Beane was the GM so he’s responsible for bringing in players. 

 

Also, it’s clear that the team is focuses on three things up to this point:

 

1) get the best QB you can in the draft in 2018

2) get rid bad contracts and accumulate draft picks

3) improve the defense

 

now, you may not agree with the approach and that’s fine, but it’s obvious that’s the plan. They probably figured they team was closer to having an elite defense than offense so they focused on that. Or they thought there was better defensive talent in FA and the draft this year. 

 

I dont really know, but at least I get it. People should try to understand. It makes watching this year much more palatable. 

 

McDermott is in charge of personnel.  He reports to the Pegulas, as does Beane, but McDermott makes the personnel decisions, and Beane simply sees to it.  It's similar to the way that the Bills have operated since 2006 when Russ Brandon took over the team.  Levy was a figurehead GM in Jauron's first two years, then Jauron ran the team until 2009 when Buddy Nix came in to oversee scouting apparently.   Nix had a more traditional GM role as he hired Chan Gailey but Gailey was more interested in coaching than selecting personnel.  In 2013, Whaley became GM with shared personnel responsibility with the HC.  It lead to issues with Marrone, and may have led to some issues with Ryan.  The Pegulas changed the situation when they fired Whaley and turned personnel responsibility over to McDermott with Beane being the guy who works out the details.  Beane also has limited, if any, player personnel experience.  His role in personnel in Carolina was similar to that of your company's HR director rather than player evaluation.

[Chandler#81]

21 hours ago, buffalobloodfloridahome said:

The big ? is do they know how to draft talent on the offensive side of the ball. We can see a dominant defense being built and that's awesome. Now will they make the right moves and actually get our offense to be at least competent. O line and WR's can be difficult to draft and sometimes you get great value outside of the first rd and get huge busts in the first. Free agency can be a slippery slope and you can easily over pay. 

 

Nothing in our front offices track record so far has shown they know how to stack offensive personnel and that needs to be addressed heavily this offseason.

This. 

Trading up for Zey, Pickpeterman and a host of nobody’s sans Dawkins. The real problem is they want to hang on to these mistakes anyway..

20 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Um we traded Watkins before he could walk on us. None of the three had any interest in signing with TT as QB.  Way to twist things though.

and you know this how?