How much blame does Daboll deserve?

[ghostwriter]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Look I am not saying Daboll is great or even good. There is nothing in his history to suggest he is a great OC. I am saying you bring a guy in to run his offense and give him players who can't execute. They did it with Rick Dennison last year and they have done it with Daboll this year. The biggest problem last year was not Dennison. The biggest problem this year is not Daboll. 

 

The talent sucks folks. Not just a bit. A lot. LeSean McCoy apart this might be one of the least talented offenses that has ever taken an NFL field.

Ok, once again, if we gut our entire offense, all of our players, gone. Would you GunnerBill be shocked if some of our guys went to NE, KC and LA and started for them? I wouldn't be, not one bit.

Edited October 16, 2018 by NewDayBills

[LABILLBACKER]

13 hours ago, The Process said:

He's college football level in creativity and innovation. 

How much? 40%.....this team still has embarrassing  weapons offensively.  DaBoll isn't the Belichick disciple we had hoped.  McB are both to blame for not preparing a better veteran replacement for Peterman. On the bright side all this dysfunction will probably translate to a top 3 pick. This is a 4-12 team with a very good top 10 defense. And finally on JA, I've seen more flaws than positives. He should've sat this whole season if McCarron and Peterman didn't crap the bed. I'd consider drafting another qb this April. 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, NewDayBills said:

The whole 'talent' argument. First off, I'm not so sure about that. Shady has had a HOF career and he has really struggled this year, once again, it's like no thought was put into our run blocking designs, none. Ivory and Murphy should also be way more productive, I miss the complexity of Greg Roman's run designs, I think Allen could really benefit from being on a power run team. This offense Daboll is running is for more polished and seasoned QBs, not someone that should have been sat down a year.

 

Bottom line, this offense is meant to create mismatches in the passing game, which in theory sounds great if you have a QB that is developed, which we do not. So far Daboll's offense has been a complete disaster in terms of running the football. How much of this is talent? Let me ask you guys this, if we gutted our entire offense, all of the players, gone. Would you be surprised if some of our guys ended up with New England, LA and KC?

 

So let me start with Greg Roman. Who I an a massive fan of. He is the best run game coordinator in the National Football League. He isn't great at building a passing game off of it but if you want a "hide the QB" offense that is productive and can put up points go and hire Greg Roman. Want proof look at Baltimore's run game the year before he arrived and then the two years since he arrived. He is a run game genius. 

 

Then let me address your question at the end. If we leave Allen to the side for a moment (because any rational person knows it is way too early to judge) and then released every other offensive player on the roster at the end of this season I submit that only TWO (Shady and Dawkins) would be starters on an NFL team next season. Clay, Mills, Miller and Ivory would probably get backup jobs somewhere and Kelvin Benjamin would get signed to a squad... but would be far from a lock to make it out of camp and if he did it would not be as a starting receiver. The talent sucks. 

[ghostwriter]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So let me start with Greg Roman. Who I an a massive fan of. He is the best run game coordinator in the National Football League. He isn't great at building a passing game off of it but if you want a "hide the QB" offense that is productive and can put up points go and hire Greg Roman. Want proof look at Baltimore's run game the year before he arrived and then the two years since he arrived. He is a run game genius. 

 

Then let me address your question at the end. If we leave Allen to the side for a moment (because any rational person knows it is way too early to judge) and then released every other offensive player on the roster at the end of this season I submit that only TWO (Shady and Dawkins) would be starters on an NFL team next season. Clay, Mills, Miller and Ivory would probably get backup jobs somewhere and Kelvin Benjamin would get signed to a squad... but would be far from a lock to make it out of camp and if he did it would not be as a starting receiver. The talent sucks. 

We said the same thing about Hogan and Woods, not good enough for us but good enough to be cornerstones for franchises contending for Super Bowl titles every year. If we did gut our offense completely, the vultures would come circling and they would pick our corpse dry to the bone, it's happened enough times over the years that I'm seeing a pattern here.

Edited October 16, 2018 by NewDayBills

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, NewDayBills said:

Ok, once again, if we gut our entire offense, all of our players, gone. Would you GunnerBill be shocked if some of our guys went to NE, KC and LA and started for them? I wouldn't be, not one bit.

 

Unless we are talking about Shady (and he definitely wouldn't start in LA) then yes. Dawkins is the only other one I imagine starting anywhere in the NFL let alone on teams with good offenses.

 

The offensive talent level on this roster was bad last year and totally sucks this year. 

4 minutes ago, NewDayBills said:

We said the same thing about Hogan and Woods, not good enough for us but good enough to be cornerstones for franchises contending for Super Bowl titles every year. If we did gut our offense completely, the vultures would come circling and they would pick our corpse dry to the bone, it's happened enough times over the years that I'm seeing a pattern here.

 

Nope. I was about the biggest Hogan guy on this board and always thought Woods was a steady #2. Those guys can play. 

 

EDIT: and I also said before that season that the 2015 roster (the one with Woods and Hogan and Goodwin and Watkins and Harvin and Karlos and Shady and Gillislee and the key pieces of the #4 defense in the league a year before) was - leaving QB aside because Tyrod was a total unknown at the time - a top 6 roster in the NFL. If the Head Coach hadn't wrecked the defense that team could have won 11 or 12 games and made noise in the post-season. 

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by GunnerBill

[ghostwriter]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Unless we are talking about Shady (and he definitely wouldn't start in LA) then yes. Dawkins is the only other one I imagine starting anywhere in the NFL let alone on teams with good offenses.

 

The offensive talent level on this roster was bad last year and totally sucks this year. 

I bet you some other NFL franchise could squeeze another 1,000 yard season or two out of Shady. Also wouldn't be surprised if Zay Jones became a productive starter somewhere else, same for Kelvin Benjamin and Charles Clay. We always blame talent, until our guys go somewhere else and blossom and we're left with nothing to show for. Watch the NFL teams circle us like a pack of hyenas when we gut our offense, watch.

[GunnerBill]

43 minutes ago, NewDayBills said:

I bet you some other NFL franchise could squeeze another 1,000 yard season or two out of Shady. Also wouldn't be surprised if Zay Jones became a productive starter somewhere else, same for Kelvin Benjamin and Charles Clay. We always blame talent, until our guys go somewhere else and blossom and we're left with nothing to show for. Watch the NFL teams circle us like a pack of hyenas when we gut our offense, watch.

 

Shady could get 1,000 yards somewhere. I agree. There is almost no way the other three are gonna go and be successful starters elsewhere. Were David Nelson and Donald Jones successful elsewhere? How about CJ Spiller? No. In fact they were more productive here than anywhere. 

 

The reason Hogan and Goodwin and Woods have succeeded is because they are good. Teams take good players. They don't take sucky players. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by GunnerBill

[ghostwriter]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Shady could get 1,000 yards somewhere. I agree. There is no way the other three are gonna go and be successful starters elsewhere. Were David Nelson and Donald Jones successful elsewhere? How about CJ Spiller? No. In fact they were more productive here than anywhere. 

 

The reason Hogan and Goodwin and Woods have succeeded is because they are good. Teams take good players. They don't take sucky players. 

But Hogan and Woods weren't good according to fans and management. I'm not saying every player is good, I'm saying that we have a tendency of throwing out entire ribeye steaks instead of simply trimming the fat. Meanwhile all 31 NFL teams grab their lunch trays and line up for an all you can eat buffet at our expense. We draft good players extremely high and in 4 years they're out the door. Identifying which players we should keep has been a problem historically speaking for Buffalo. We have a history of straight cutting underperforming starters instead of drafting or signing competition which would improve the quality of the starting unit and the depth behind them. To me it's like a snake eating it's own tail.

Edited October 16, 2018 by NewDayBills

[ColoradoBills]

3 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

Overall talent on those teams were also not great; GMs/HCs left a lot to be desired as well

 

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Look I am not saying Daboll is great or even good. There is nothing in his history to suggest he is a great OC. I am saying you bring a guy in to run his offense and give him players who can't execute. They did it with Rick Dennison last year and they have done it with Daboll this year. The biggest problem last year was not Dennison. The biggest problem this year is not Daboll. 

 

The talent sucks folks. Not just a bit. A lot. LeSean McCoy apart this might be one of the least talented offenses that has ever taken an NFL field.

 

Like anything in life people have opinions.  We believe the talent is sub par.  I personally believe it is even worse than that.

I can rationalize posters opinions like NewDayBills and understand what he is saying.

 

But just as one side believes an extremely good OC can make a less talented team better so it goes the other way.

Having an elite QB with talented WRs and a serviceable OL can make an OC look like a genius.

 

I too cannot say that Daboll will be a great OC but an off tackle running play is an off tackle running play.

The OL and RB have to beat the DL and LB's. 

Any decent DC can scheme to beat this group on most downs no matter what the play call is.

 

I only hope Beane and McDermott and Daboll (or his replacement) can identify and aquire the players during the offseason close to what they do on defense.

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, NewDayBills said:

But Hogan and Woods weren't good according to fans and management. I'm not saying every player is good, I'm saying that we have a tendency of throwing out entire ribeye steaks instead of simply trimming the fat. Meanwhile all 31 NFL teams grab their lunch trays and line up for an all you can eat buffet at our expense. We draft good players extremely high and in 4 years they're out the door. Identifying which players we should keep has been a problem historically speaking for Buffalo. We have a history of straight cutting underperforming starters instead of drafting or signing competition which would improve the quality of the starting unit and the depth behind them. To me it's like a snake eating it's own tail.

 

Management were wrong to let Hogan walk. I think letting Woods walk was understandable - he wasn't allowed to go because he wasn't good enough.

 

And I don't care what the faceless blob of "the fans" thought. I am defending my judgment - I never thought Hogan or Woods sucked they were obviously to the naked eye legitimate NFL players. To even consider the artist formerly known as Kelvin Benjamin's career (he is more akin to a washed up Harvin coming here which I correctly predicted would fail) or the complete non event that is Zay Jones (who I liked in the draft by the way) in the same bracket is to ignore the evidence infront of your face. 

 

And we will soon see.... because a lot of these offensive players will not be here next year. And the vast majority of them will not be starting in the NFL. I'd be shocked if more than half a dozen or so of our offensive guys are even on NFL rosters come opening day 2019. 

[MAJBobby]

Well he does have an AVG passing offense. Granted it would he AVG in 1941. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by MAJBobby

[ghostwriter]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Management were wrong to let Hogan walk. I think letting Woods walk was understandable - he wasn't allowed to go because he wasn't good enough.

 

And I don't care what the faceless blob of "the fans" thought. I am defending my judgment - I never thought Hogan or Woods sucked they were obviously to the naked eye legitimate NFL players. To even consider the artist formerly known as Kelvin Benjamin's career (he is more akin to a washed up Harvin coming here which I correctly predicted would fail) or the complete non event that is Zay Jones (who I liked in the draft by the way) in the same bracket is to ignore the evidence infront of your face. 

 

And we will soon see.... because a lot of these offensive players will not be here next year. And the vast majority of them will not be starting in the NFL. I'd be shocked if more than half a dozen or so of our offensive guys are even on NFL rosters come opening day 2019. 

Indeed, we shall see. And I hope you are correct, I'd love to be wrong, I just don't see it. We will gut the offense, many of these players will start somewhere else and do fairly well. McDermott will get his guys on offense and if he fails? He will get fired, some new coach will come in and gut the entire roster again. Alas, we will have come full circle in the cycle of self cannibalization that is which the Buffalo Bills.

[BringBackOrton]

15 hours ago, NewDayBills said:

He deserves a lot of blame, expecting an extremely raw QB lead an aerial attack is naive. This offense should be predicated on pounding the football with Allen occasionally airing it out to keep defenses honest. 

 

Shady is also being completely misused, guy should be used much more strategically than what he has. Murphy and Ivory should be in on 1st and 2nd down, not Shady. You put Shady in within the 20 and crucial 3rd down situations where we need to convert. Also, there is no creativity in run designs, it's like we're still in the preseason. Daboll wants to throw all the time when he should be trying to pound the ball.

An aerial attack?  Allen has throw like 40 times over two games.

[ghostwriter]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

An aerial attack?  Allen has throw like 40 times over two games.

Which could be perpetuated by penalties, no running game and 3rd & 20 situations they seem to have a penchant for putting Allen in.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, NewDayBills said:

Which could be perpetuated by penalties, no running game and 3rd & 20 situations they seem to have a penchant for putting Allen in.

No dude. 40 attempts total. That's the OPPOSITE of an aerial attack.  Do ya'll watch the games?

[ghostwriter]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

No dude. 40 attempts total. That's the OPPOSITE of an aerial attack.  Do ya'll watch the games?

I do. And dude, did you read my reply to you? How many 3rd & 20 situations have we put Allen in?

 

Which may be why my perception is such, they never put Allen in any easy passing situations, he's always expected to do something heroic. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, NewDayBills said:

I do. And dude, did you read my reply to you? How many 3rd & 20 situations have we put Allen in?

 

Which may be why my perception is such, they never put Allen in any easy passing situations, he's always expected to do something heroic. 

And even if we put Allen in so many passing downs, we're still 29th in total passing attempts on the year.  AKA, we're trying to run.

[ghostwriter]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

And even if we put Allen in so many passing downs, we're still 29th in total passing attempts on the year.  AKA, we're trying to run.

In the end, we are trying to run, but we haven't been to successful at it, have we? Did you read my entire post through? You know, the post you quoted me on? Ivory is averaging what? 2.5ypc? Murphy probably doesn't even have 20 attempts on the year. What does this lack of a running attack mean for Allen? Or all the penalties? Yep, it means 3rd and long, he's expected to convert ridiculous odds, most of the time even a top 5 QB would struggle with. My perception is not as absurd as you make it seem.

[BringBackOrton]

2 minutes ago, NewDayBills said:

In the end, we are trying to run, but we haven't been to successful at it, have we? Did you read my entire post through? You know, the post you quoted me on? Ivory is averaging what? 2.5ypc? Murphy probably doesn't even have 20 attempts on the year. What does this lack of a running attack mean for Allen? Or all the penalties? Yep, it means 3rd and long, he's expected to convert ridiculous odds, most of the time even a top 5 QB would struggle with. My perception is not as absurd as you make it seem.

I did.  I especially thought the bolded parts were completely wrong. 

15 hours ago, NewDayBills said:

He deserves a lot of blame, expecting an extremely raw QB lead an aerial attack is naive. This offense should be predicated on pounding the football with Allen occasionally airing it out to keep defenses honest. 

 

Shady is also being completely misused, guy should be used much more strategically than what he has. Murphy and Ivory should be in on 1st and 2nd down, not Shady. You put Shady in within the 20 and crucial 3rd down situations where we need to convert. Also, there is no creativity in run designs, it's like we're still in the preseason. Daboll wants to throw all the time when he should be trying to pound the ball.

 

[ghostwriter]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

I did.  I especially thought the bolded parts were completely wrong. 

 

I explained my views on Allen, they expect him to play hero ball which is why his numbers are so bad. If Daboll wants to pound the ball or if he is trying to is the wrong question, the question is, has he been successful at it? If you agree that Daboll has been putrid at running the football #1 - Who picks up the slack? #2- Why exactly are you disagreeing with me?