Democratic 2020 Presidential Primary Thread

[1915 Buffalo Bill Cody fan]

Thank you to the truth teller in New York....doubling the national minimum wage to 15 is reforming capitalism.   Period.  Socialism is about helping people in society with government programs like libraries schools fire police sewers streets bridges transit subsidized housing Veterans hospitals University research teaching hospitals parks Wildlife habitats and coast guards serving private people in rivers lakes and our ocean areas.....but the biggest socialism program of all is the military making the world safe for polluter oil war crime profiteering bankster zionists....Medicare Medicaid Food Stamps parents welfare guaranteed student loans Social Security are PARTNERSHIPS not welfare people pay in and get back when they qualify for the partnership....military is pure welfare....oil drillers don't pay taxes they are subsidized and government guns shoot anybody who tries to steal their own oil in their own country steal their oil back from USA oil drilling mining mahogany clear cutting or rubber tree tapping.....rich corporations don't pay taxes for the military that provides Security 

[Deranged Rhino]

2 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

 

I'm pretty sure Sanders proposals do not rise to the level of true socialism, although it's nebulous. Communism involves total state control, as I'm sure you know. Socialism is tricky in that it's somewhere in between.

Sanders’ central campaign planks are the Green New Deal and nationalizing health care. That’s turning over total control of three major sectors of our economy (health care, travel/transportation, and construction) to the state. 
 

He’s openly pushing a communist solution:transformation.  It’s not somewhere in between.
 

He’s openly saying it. 

 

1 hour ago, section122 said:

 

Who is Pradheep J. Shanker?  You have put a lot of his tweets up and so I googled him and got bupkis. Why should I care about his opinion?

 

You don’t have to care at all of course   He just makes a few really good points to consider. 

[LSHMEAB]

12 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Sanders’ central campaign planks are the Green New Deal and nationalizing health care. That’s turning over total control of three major sectors of our economy (health care, travel/transportation, and construction) to the state. 
 

He’s openly pushing a communist solution:transformation.  It’s not somewhere in between.
 

He’s openly saying it. 

Communist? Ehhhh. That's a stretch. As far as healthcare, he's not advocating state control of the industry. He's advocating that the government provide insurance, which they already do for senior citizens. The Green New Deal will never come to fruition, but the OLD New Deal put people to work for the state in the construction industry, which could easily be construed as a state takeover.(And I'm sure it was at the time.)

 

I think many of these attacks include a great deal of hyperbole. 

 

You're gonna have to explain the transportation "takeover." Pretty sure all commercial travel is already controlled by the state.

 

Bit on an addendum; I fully believe capitalism is the best economic system...until it's not. Eventually so much wealth is consolidated at the top that it requires a reset button. In the 1960's, a CEO made on average 30 times that of the average worker. In 2020, that number is 400/approaching 500. The tax cuts gave the economy a sugar high, as they often do, but it USUALLY doesn't last. Perhaps this one was perfectly targeted, but I'm skeptical. I think a lot of people recognize that the economic numbers looks good, but wonder why it doesn't seem to be helping them PERSONALLY. Given that it's going to be Trump/Sanders, we'll have an opportunity to see how people actually feel. Just glad it's not going to be some squishy pushover like Petey or Pocahontas. 

 

It's actually refreshing that the conversation has shifted from palace intrigue/needless Trump bashing into discourse wrt the economy.

 

FINAL addendum; No rational human being wants to live in a society that doesn't allow someone to become wealthy. What we're talking about is marginal tax rates and how the taxes should be allocated. Redistribution of wealth is a scary buzzword, but WE ALREADY DO THAT. The tax rates in place are progressive in nature. So technically speaking, America redistributes wealth RIGHT NOW. The debate is, and has always been, the degree to which we want to redistribute wealth. Forbes/Herman Cain/Grover Norquist are proponents of a flat tax, which would effectively end the redistribution of wealth, but that never came to be. Sanders proposals would represent the extreme opposite end of the spectrum. What I'm getting at is that none of this is nearly as radical as it's being portrayed.

Edited February 25, 2020 by LSHMEAB

[Rob's House]

7 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I actually think that if the Ds were to all rally around Bernie he would have a decent shot.

 

The whole Bernie is like Stalin and Castro is way overblown and most people with a brain realize that.

 

He's running for president, not dictator.  As George W Bush himself told us, "a dictatorship would be a lot easier."

 

It's not overblown at all. It's who the guy is and has been throughout his career. It's the one thing he's been amazingly consistent about.

 

This idea that he's just a run of the mill Democrat who uses the word socialism a little too freely doesn't have any evidence to support it.

 

Now, if you're suggesting that he wouldn't be able to implement the radical changes he supports, then I agree with you. But it would not be for a lack of trying.

[Buffalo_Gal]

What Bernie stands for...
 

 

[Rob's House]

34 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Communist? Ehhhh. That's a stretch. As far as healthcare, he's not advocating state control of the industry. He's advocating that the government provide insurance, which they already do for senior citizens. The Green New Deal will never come to fruition, but the OLD New Deal put people to work for the state in the construction industry, which could easily be construed as a state takeover.(And I'm sure it was at the time.)

 

I think many of these attacks include a great deal of hyperbole. 

 

You're gonna have to explain the transportation "takeover." Pretty sure all commercial travel is already controlled by the state.

 

Bit on an addendum; I fully believe capitalism is the best economic system...until it's not. Eventually so much wealth is consolidated at the top that it requires a reset button. In the 1960's, a CEO made on average 30 times that of the average worker. In 2020, that number is 400/approaching 500. The tax cuts gave the economy a sugar high, as they often do, but it USUALLY doesn't last. Perhaps this one was perfectly targeted, but I'm skeptical. I think a lot of people recognize that the economic numbers looks good, but wonder why it doesn't seem to be helping them PERSONALLY. Given that it's going to be Trump/Sanders, we'll have an opportunity to see how people actually feel. Just glad it's not going to be some squishy pushover like Petey or Pocahontas. 

 

It's actually refreshing that the conversation has shifted from palace intrigue/needless Trump bashing into discourse wrt the economy.

 

I'm curious why people making ridiculous money concerns you.

 

It concerns me too, despite my economic libertarian leanings, but for what I imagine are entirely different reasons. I'm actually not so concerned about billionaires as I am concentration of power by multi-national corporations.

 

What threat do you see in rich CEOs and the like?

[Doc Brown]

7 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I actually think that if the Ds were to all rally around Bernie he would have a decent shot.

 

The whole Bernie is like Stalin and Castro is way overblown and most people with a brain realize that.

 

He's running for president, not dictator.  As George W Bush himself told us, "a dictatorship would be a lot easier."

Best VP pick for that would be Michelle Obama.  Will never happen but that would be the best pick.

[Buffalo_Gal]

Bernie loves him some communism ...
 

 

[3rdnlng]

7 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Best VP pick for that would be Michelle Obama.  Will never happen but that would be the best pick.

What qualifications does she have to put her that close to becoming president?

[Hedge]

On 2/23/2020 at 11:24 AM, B-Man said:

These are starting to get a little fishy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

7 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

What qualifications does she have to put her that close to becoming president?

Black, female, and I will leave out the obvious transgender joke because I actually think Michelle is very nice looking. She does not dress for her frame or age (either her advisors hate her, or she does not listen to good advice, although her plastic surgeon is top-notch), and that is why she generally looks so terrible. When she dresses for her height and frame, she looks very good.

[Doc Brown]

2 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

What qualifications does she have to put her that close to becoming president?

Oh god.  None.  She can tell Bernie where they keep the coffee filters in the West Wing dining room I guess.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

....another victim of relaxed mental hygiene....SMH...........DEM-entia.......

Bernie Sanders reveals 'major plans' to be funded by new taxes, massive lawsuits, military cuts

By Gregg Re | Fox News

 

Bernie Sanders unexpectedly released a fact-sheet Monday night explaining that he'd pay for his sweeping new government programs through new taxes and massive lawsuits against the fossil fuel industry, as well as by slashing spending on the military, among other methods.

The move sought to head off complaints from Republicans and some rival Democrats that his plans were economically unrealistic, especially after a head-turning CBS News interview in which the frustrated Vermont senator said he couldn't "rattle off to you every nickle and every dime" about his proposed expenditures.

He released his plan on his website just minutes after promising to do so during a CNN town hall.

However, the fact-sheet highlighted for the first time that many of Sanders' expected cost-saving measures relied on conjecture and best-case scenarios. For example, Sanders' document asserts that a "modest tax on Wall Street speculation ... will raise an estimated $2.4 trillion over ten years" and, in one fell swoop, make all "public colleges, universities and trade schools tuition-free ... and cancel all student debt over the next decade."

 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-payments-green-new-deal-medicare-for-all-explanation

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Buffalo_Gal]

 

[ALF]

Bernie is making me nervous if he were the nominee , Trump would win and Congress would go republican in case Bernie pulled off the win.

 

[Wacka]

On 2/22/2020 at 10:07 AM, 1915 Buffalo Bill Cody fan said:

 

Correct capitalization and punctuation are your friends.

[snafu]

8 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Communist? Ehhhh. That's a stretch. As far as healthcare, he's not advocating state control of the industry. He's advocating that the government provide insurance, which they already do for senior citizens. The Green New Deal will never come to fruition, but the OLD New Deal put people to work for the state in the construction industry, which could easily be construed as a state takeover.(And I'm sure it was at the time.)

 

I think many of these attacks include a great deal of hyperbole. 

 

You're gonna have to explain the transportation "takeover." Pretty sure all commercial travel is already controlled by the state.

 

His idea for healthcare is to mandate that everyone be on exactly the same plan — no option.  He won’t entertain an option.  That would include every doctor and hospital and clinic. To pay for it, he wants to tax rich people.  He has no idea how much it will cost, so he refuses to define what “rich people” is. That’s government takeover. 

 

The New Deal of Roosevelt was implemented because people were desperate for jobs and food. Once the economy came back there was less need for Roosevelt’s new deal construction projects. Sanders wants to take a decent economy and alter it primarily out of his adherence to an economic theory that’s not anything like we have in place now.  Sanders’ “green new deal” is borne out of climate fear and is ill defined. Without any details, it is impossible for you to say it will be a good plan.  The only thing certain it that it will be an expensive plan, justified by largely unproven eco-altruism. Can you or anyone else tell me why the US should go completely green and ignore the remainder of the carbon-emitting humans on our planet? Reduce emission, sure.  Cut pollution, of course.  Eliminate ALL carbon? WTF?

 

You say that socialism is economic, but implementing socialism is the function of government. The implementation may start out benign but it will inevitably lead to harsher measures. Social welfare programs are meant to assist people who are for whatever reason unable to assist themselves.  Social welfare programs obviously have a place in society, but they’re not meant to be a platform for everyone to live exactly the same lives.  Therefore, there is little reason to expand them. 

 

Keep in mind that I’m not saying that the healthcare system in our country is good.  It does need fixing.  But Sanders’ approach is just a side door to his goal of reshaping everything.  When he says things like revolution and movement, he means revolution and drastic change.  He means to impose that change on a majority of citizens who don’t want that change to be so drastic. If you think that Executive Branch regulations aren’t enough to get the ball way down the road then you’re not seeing what Bernie can accomplish on his own — and for the next person that follows Bernie to take it further.

 

That socialist road sucks.  If all anyone can trot out as an example is “look at Denmark”, then that should tell you everything you need to know.  There’s absolutely no reason to even be sniffing that path if you know where it leads.

 

[RochesterRob]

19 minutes ago, ALF said:

Bernie is making me nervous if he were the nominee , Trump would win and Congress would go republican in case Bernie pulled off the win.

 

  I'm not seeing the benefit of having the house remain in Democratic control. Especially when more and more of the body is hard leftists.

[snafu]

21 minutes ago, ALF said:

Bernie is making me nervous if he were the nominee , Trump would win and Congress would go republican in case Bernie pulled off the win.

 

 

Just now, RochesterRob said:

  I'm not seeing the benefit of having the house remain in Democratic control. Especially when more and more of the body is hard leftists.

 

I actually think that a lot of people will vote D Congressperson if they also vote for Trump.

Enough people? Not sure.

 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

His idea for healthcare is to mandate that everyone be on exactly the same plan — no option.  He won’t entertain an option.  That would include every doctor and hospital and clinic. To pay for it, he wants to tax rich people.  He has no idea how much it will cost, so he refuses to define what “rich people” is. That’s government takeover. 

 

The New Deal of Roosevelt was implemented because people were desperate for jobs and food. Once the economy came back there was less need for Roosevelt’s new deal construction projects. Sanders wants to take a decent economy and alter it primarily out of his adherence to an economic theory that’s not anything like we have in place now.  Sanders’ “green new deal” is borne out of climate fear and is ill defined. Without any details, it is impossible for you to say it will be a good plan.  The only thing certain it that it will be an expensive plan, justified by largely unproven eco-altruism. Can you or anyone else tell me why the US should go completely green and ignore the remainder of the carbon-emitting humans on our planet? Reduce emission, sure.  Cut pollution, of course.  Eliminate ALL carbon? WTF?

 

You say that socialism is economic, but implementing socialism is the function of government. The implementation may start out benign but it will inevitably lead to harsher measures. Social welfare programs are meant to assist people who are for whatever reason unable to assist themselves.  Social welfare programs obviously have a place in society, but they’re not meant to be a platform for everyone to live exactly the same lives.  Therefore, there is little reason to expand them. 

 

Keep in mind that I’m not saying that the healthcare system in our country is good.  It does need fixing.  But Sanders’ approach is just a side door to his goal of reshaping everything.  When he says things like revolution and movement, he means revolution and drastic change.  He means to impose that change on a majority of citizens who don’t want that change to be so drastic. If you think that Executive Branch regulations aren’t enough to get the ball way down the road then you’re not seeing what Bernie can accomplish on his own — and for the next person that follows Bernie to take it further.

 

That socialist road sucks.  If all anyone can trot out as an example is “look at Denmark”, then that should tell you everything you need to know.  There’s absolutely no reason to even be sniffing that path if you know where it leads.

 

 

And they conveniently neglect how the most recent country to swap from capitalism to socialism went to hell in under 20 years.

 

If the system was so great, and failure was always due to poor implementation, shouldn't the country that had 80+ years worth of examples to look towards have gotten it right?  Presuming of course, that there is an actual right way to switch from capitalism to authoritarianism.  Why did Venezuela get it so wrong if there was a right way to do it?