THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Outstanding!

[Shaw66]

13 minutes ago, Da webster guy said:

 

My brother's a football smartie, watched him every snap and was commenting along as we played D.   The general take is that he's playing great ball sideline to sideline, disruptive (caused INT last week on a tip and forced fumble this week) and good already at read n react speed, but gap reads and shedding blocks in obvious run plays needs work.  At least against Titans thats what he saw.

Usually long armed LB's can keep those 300 pounders from getting under their pads and holding them on run plays, which they pretty much will do everytime and then let go a millisecond before the ref would flag em.

Like Lorenzo Alexander says, in the NFL you get held every play, you either learn to live with it and try to counter it or you end up on the sidelines.

Thanks.  I've seen the run fit problems but have missed the sideline to sideline stuff. I'm glad he's already a problem for teams there.  

 

Second half of this season Bills will be giving people fits with Allen and Edmunds.  

[Figster]

46 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't get fans.  

 

I'm all about the games.  If someone asks me of all the kinds of Bills games I can go to, out of wins, losses, blowout wins, blowout lossess, last minute wins, last minute losses, etc., last minute wins is way up there.  Games where my team doesn't make a lot of mistakes are up there. Games where they get a lot of takeaways are up there. 

 

Sunday was one of those games.  

 

A lot of fans, like you, are evaluating the quality of the entertainment, or what it says about the future or something else.  I went to the game and saw my team do a lot of food things and drive for the winning score.   I saw two of my guys, the running backs, grind it out.   

 

I loved it.

 

Allen?  I'm convinced Allen will be great.  I'm happy when I see evidence of it.  Like the INT throw.  Man, what a throw!  Right read, beautiful throw.  It was a sign of things to come. 

 

I liked how Allen delivered the ball on the last two passes.  I liked how composed he was.  

 

I don't need Allen to be a finished product this month. Darnold isnt. Mayfield isn't.  Sure, I see things that need to get better.  That goes without saying.  But I'm not seeing any horridle problems.  

 

Bottom line, I'm an old-time fan. I love to watch my team win.  It was outstanding. 

 

 

A hard fought win like the game on Sunday against the Titans builds team chemistry IMO. Guys are starting to billieve in each other, Oline's thinking we can do this, McCoy ,  Ivory saying yes we can, now its our turn to carry the load.

 

Josh Allens thinking, wow, this is my team now...

 

...one Buffalo strong... 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, stevewin said:

- Was great seeing players come over and stand up for Allen on the late hit on the sidelines – thought for sure they would end up getting a flag but bonus that they didn't go over the line to get penalized

 

So two plays later, Dawkins drew a foul for "unnecessary roughness" on the same LB who made the late hit - Correa.  Dawkins clubbed him on the back of the neck and then gave him a hard shove.  He looked right pleased with himself afterwards too, no way abashed.  The announcers at the time commented to the effect "probably making up for that bump on the sideline" 

 

I'd prefer Dawkins learn subtlety, but I appreciated the principle.

[Da webster guy]

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So two plays later, Dawkins drew a foul for "unnecessary roughness" on the same LB who made the late hit - Correa.  Dawkins clubbed him on the back of the neck and then gave him a hard shove.  He looked right pleased with himself afterwards too, no way abashed.  The announcers at the time commented to the effect "probably making up for that bump on the sideline" 

 

I'd prefer Dawkins learn subtlety, but I appreciated the principle.

 

I appreciated that too, but it wasn't even a penalty.  The ref who threw the flag should have picked it up.   And Dawk should wait until the 2nd or 3rd play to get a shot in, not the very next play.

Thats OK he made up for it with that sweet kickout block on Jackson to spring RayRay on that huge last minute play.

[Stank_Nasty]

8 minutes ago, Da webster guy said:

 

I appreciated that too, but it wasn't even a penalty.  The ref who threw the flag should have picked it up.   And Dawk should wait until the 2nd or 3rd play to get a shot in, not the very next play.

Thats OK he made up for it with that sweet kickout block on Jackson to spring RayRay on that huge last minute play.

Definitely felt like a make-up call. It was a garbage flag and archuleta said as much. 

[transplantbillsfan]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't get fans.  

 

I'm all about the games.  If someone asks me of all the kinds of Bills games I can go to, out of wins, losses, blowout wins, blowout lossess, last minute wins, last minute losses, etc., last minute wins is way up there.  Games where my team doesn't make a lot of mistakes are up there. Games where they get a lot of takeaways are up there. 

 

Sunday was one of those games.  

 

A lot of fans, like you, are evaluating the quality of the entertainment, or what it says about the future or something else.  I went to the game and saw my team do a lot of good things and drive for the winning score.   I saw two of my guys, the running backs, grind it out.   

 

I loved it.

 

Allen?  I'm convinced Allen will be great.  I'm happy when I see evidence of it.  Like the INT throw.  Man, what a throw!  Right read, beautiful throw.  It was a sign of things to come. 

 

I liked how Allen delivered the ball on the last two passes.  I liked how composed he was.  

 

I don't need Allen to be a finished product this month. Darnold isnt. Mayfield isn't.  Sure, I see things that need to get better.  That goes without saying.  But I'm not seeing any horridle problems.  

 

Bottom line, I'm an old-time fan. I love to watch my team win.  It was outstanding. 

 

I loved the game.

 

It was super exciting.

 

The game was outstanding, Allen wasn't.

 

You just overstated it.

 

Just because I said Allen struggled doesn't mean I didn't think it was an outstanding game to watch.

 

And I agree that I think Allen is our answer. But what the last couple Sundays have shown is that he really has a lot of work to do, not that he's anywhere near where he needs to be.

[SoCal Deek]

Shaw, that was a really fragile game at best. One typical mistake, like a holding call on that last drive and it’s doubtful they win it...but we’ll all take it!

 

Who knew that when the President was talking about everyone getting tired of all the “winning” that he was referring to the 2018 Buffalo Bills! ?

[Shaw66]

54 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I loved the game.

 

It was super exciting.

 

The game was outstanding, Allen wasn't.

 

You just overstated it.

 

Just because I said Allen struggled doesn't mean I didn't think it was an outstanding game to watch.

 

And I agree that I think Allen is our answer. But what the last couple Sundays have shown is that he really has a lot of work to do, not that he's anywhere near where he needs to be.

That's fair.  But I think he is closer than you think.  I see him having little thi.gs ro work on, not big problems to correct.  

46 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Shaw, that was a really fragile game at best. One typical mistake, like a holding call on that last drive and it’s doubtful they win it...but we’ll all take it!

 

Who knew that when the President was talking about everyone getting tired of all the “winning” that he was referring to the 2018 Buffalo Bills! ?

So true.  All close games are fragile.  That's part of what makes winning them so great for fans.  It feels great to place the 52nd piece on a house of  cards. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Shaw66

[sleeby]

In the tele broadcast they showed JA on the bench watching as mariota hurdled a defender.  I'm pretty sure Josh's inner monologue said "if this goin to be that kind of game then I'm gonna stick my stuff in tha mashed potatas!"    Fortunately, the potatoes went unviolated and the bills still got the win. Good game.

Edited October 9, 2018 by sleeby

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

That's fair.  But I think he is closer than you think.  I see him having little thi.gs ro work on, not big problems to correct. 

 

The last 3 games have shown me that when Allen has space and time to throw and an OC who's calling passing plays of the short, timing variety (the Vikings game), he looks like a Franchise QB.

 

But when he gets a lot of pressure, some footwork/mechanics issues creep up that impact his accuracy.

 

What I would love to see is a QB coach who has a ton of footwork/mechanics expertise to help him during the season. But I'm glad at least we got Derek Anderson as our backup (is that even official yet?), because I think that'll really help.

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

 

I appreciated that too, but it wasn't even a penalty.  The ref who threw the flag should have picked it up.   And Dawk should wait until the 2nd or 3rd play to get a shot in, not the very next play.

Thats OK he made up for it with that sweet kickout block on Jackson to spring RayRay on that huge last minute play.

It may have been a makeup call, but I think it was one of those cLls about unnecessary roughness away from the ball.  The play had gone to the other side of the field, so the official thought Dawk didn't need to give the extra shove.  But Dawk had no way of knowing that the play wasn't coming back, because his back was turned. 

55 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

The last 3 games have shown me that when Allen has space and time to throw and an OC who's calling passing plays of the short, timing variety (the Vikings game), he looks like a Franchise QB.

 

But when he gets a lot of pressure, some footwork/mechanics issues creep up that impact his accuracy.

 

What I would love to see is a QB coach who has a ton of footwork/mechanics expertise to help him during the season. But I'm glad at least we got Derek Anderson as our backup (is that even official yet?), because I think that'll really help.

Like I said, things to work on.  But he is a keeper.  

 

Like, for example, he has more promise than Cutler had.  More than Brees in his first year.  He has great potential and hasn't shown major flaws. 

[Figster]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

The last 3 games have shown me that when Allen has space and time to throw and an OC who's calling passing plays of the short, timing variety (the Vikings game), he looks like a Franchise QB.

 

But when he gets a lot of pressure, some footwork/mechanics issues creep up that impact his accuracy.

 

What I would love to see is a QB coach who has a ton of footwork/mechanics expertise to help him during the season. But I'm glad at least we got Derek Anderson as our backup (is that even official yet?), because I think that'll really help.

Its official and I like the move.

 

The reason I believe Allen may have success in the NFL perhaps a little quicker than most would have anticipated is the same reason Cam Newton did in my humble opinion. Athleticism/ Running ability. Combine that with an OC in Daboll that clearly knows how to win games / Championships with a stiff D and ball control O and you have a match made in football heaven.

 

I'm a Billiever...

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Figster said:

Its official and I like the move.

 

The reason I believe Allen may have success in the NFL perhaps a little quicker than most would have anticipated is the same reason Cam Newton did in my humble opinion. Athleticism/ Running ability. Combine that with an OC in Daboll that clearly knows how to win games / Championships with a stiff D and ball control O and you have a match made in football heaven.

 

I'm a Billiever...

One reason I like Allen is that, unlike Newton, I think he's coachable.  I think his ceiling is higher than Newton's.  Again, I think we're seeing game to game progress, and in the second half of the season he's going to be carrying the team and held back by his receivers.   We're seeing some of that already.   

 

Also, I think Ray-Ray and Zay will emerge as his two favorite receivers.  

[Logic]

Thanks for the writeup, Shaw.

Two things:

First (and I know you've already talked a little bit about it, but...), what is it in Allen's game that you see that makes you think he's going to be great? I know you've been watching the Bills for a lot of years and have seen many QBs come and go, so I'm very curious to hear why specifically you think he's a keeper.

Second, regarding Edmunds: I think it's IMPOSSIBLE to imagine how hard it would be to quarterback an NFL defense at age 20. I mean...it's mind boggling. It seems to me that he is improving each and every week. And being the QB of the defense, each time HE improves, the defense seems to improve with him. Lorenzo Alexander had mentioned that Edmunds was sometimes making incorrect checks and playcalls in preseason, but they were rolling with it, because they knew he'd get the hang of it and learn from his mistakes. He definitely seems to be doing that. As others have already said, he needs to work a bit on his run defense. He is, however, getting more comfortable each week in zone coverage. He is also not getting suckered by play-action quite so much. He does some things that you just can't teach -- they can only come from God-given gifts. In Tampa 2 coverage, for instance, he is routinely dropping 20 yards into coverage and running stride-for-stride with inside receivers, taking them completely out of the play. I have included a link to a quick video below illustrating this. He DID cause a fumble this week, too. That's a forced turnover in back-to-back weeks for him. And finally, did you see the play where he ran 10 yards straight ahead at Mariota , who was rolling out, and nearly walloped him, and caused an incomplete pass? The announcers even commented that Mariota seemed shocked that Edmunds closed on him so fast. Much like Allen, Edmunds is a physical marvel who just needs more mental seasoning. If BOTH the Bills' rookie stud athletes get the mental part down...look out, NFL!
 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Logic

[LABILLBACKER]

The future is bright.  Bill & Tom can't be in the league forever. We have a very promising young LB.  We have a shut down corner. Allen will take more time than the other 3 rookies. I'm praying his accuracy can avg close to 59-60%. His internal timer and field vision will need more improvement.  I think the future will be outstanding!

[Shaw66]

31 minutes ago, Logic said:

Thanks for the writeup, Shaw.

Two things:

First (and I know you've already talked a little bit about it, but...), what is it in Allen's game that you see that makes you think he's going to be great? I know you've been watching the Bills for a lot of years and have seen many QBs come and go, so I'm very curious to hear why specifically you think he's a keeper.

Second, regarding Edmunds: I think it's IMPOSSIBLE to imagine how hard it would be to quarterback an NFL defense at age 20. I mean...it's mind boggling. It seems to me that he is improving each and every week. And being the QB of the defense, each time HE improves, the defense seems to improve with him. Lorenzo Alexander had mentioned that Edmunds was sometimes making incorrect checks and playcalls in preseason, but they were rolling with it, because they knew he'd get the hang of it and learn from his mistakes. He definitely seems to be doing that. As others have already said, he needs to work a bit on his run defense. He is, however, getting more comfortable each week in zone coverage. He is also not getting suckered by play-action quite so much. He does some things that you just can't teach -- they can only come from God-given gifts. In Tampa 2 coverage, for instance, he is routinely dropping 20 yards into coverage and running stride-for-stride with inside receivers, taking them completely out of the play. I have included a link to a quick video below illustrating this. He DID cause a fumble this week, too. That's a forced turnover in back-to-back weeks for him. And finally, did you see the play where he ran 10 yards straight ahead at Mariota , who was rolling out, and nearly walloped him, and caused an incomplete pass? The announcers even commented that Mariota seemed shocked that Edmunds closed on him so fast. Much like Allen, Edmunds is a physical marvel who just needs more mental seasoning. If BOTH the Bills' rookie stud athletes get the mental part down...look out, NFL!
 

 

Logiic -

 

Thanks for coming here to post.   I get a lot out of your thoughts.

 

Edmunds - thanks for this stuff.   I don't seem to see him in pass coverage, only on runs.  This video is fabulous.   It's incredible, really, to watch a guy his size run like that.   Plugging the deep middle like that in the Tampa 2 is an incredible asset to have.   

 

I also agree that there's a lot to learn at his position.  It's probably the second most challenging position, mentally, behind QB.   Safeties have a lot to think about, but they can see everything in front of them.  MLB is right in the middle, and it's a challenge.  

 

I worry that he isn't a natural hitter.  He's more like an over-sized safety.   He'll get bigger and stronger, but he looks more like an arm tackler.   For me, then, his ceiling will be determined by what he can do in the run game.   He should, and this video shows it, be a real factor in the passing game.  (By the way, blitzing is something of an art form, too, and he still has that to learn).

 

What do I see in Allen.  First, the arm, and not simply the strength but the accuracy.  As I said in one of my earlier posts, I think his throw on the INT is telling.   We've seen him throw that deep (15-18 yard) in cut several times, and it's a thing of beauty.   His arm strength allows him to throw it into tight windows.   He's been very accurate throwing it.  It's a pass you see the best QBs throw.   It's a natural for him.  Also, we saw in pre season but haven't seen much since then of his 7-10 out patterns.  Same thing - arm strength and accurate make him deadly on that throw.   Those two throws can be his bread and butter for ten years.  

 

I like his size.   He seems to almost ignore incidental contact in the pocket, much like Big Ben.   He doesn't overreact to getting touched.   He just stands there, or slides a bit.   He also seems to have pretty good pocket awareness.   He doesn't have happy feet, he isn't anxious to run, but he seems to know pretty well already when it's time to go.  What he still needs to learn is WHERE to go, because sometimes he runs into sacks when he could have escaped.   But for a rookie he's comfortable in the pocket and he escapes pretty well.

 

His mobility is critical.  Daboll isn't afraid to roll him out, because he moves so effortlessly. 

 

He makes decisions and has a quick release.   He's not seeing everything yet, but when he sees what he's looking for, he gets the ball out.   He anticipates guys being open and throws.   Taylor's biggest flaw, in my mind, was waiting until he saw the guy open.  

 

All of his non-physical characteristics are there.  He's a competitor, he doesn't seem to get upset after a bad play, he's vocal with his teammates, he had a high Wonderlic, he seems to work and want to learn.  

 

I think he's the whole package.   Obviously, he isn't a finished product, but I expect he'll learn.  Some people continue to comment about his footwork and his base and other mechanical things.  First, I think there are a lot more self-proclaimed experts on a subject like that than real experts, but even if that's a flaw, it's the kind of thing that's correctable.   Practicing and correcting footwork is much easier than correcting torso turn, shoulder turn, release point, etc.   Favre had notoriously bad footwork and worked on it his entire career.   

 

I think it's kind of amazing for the Bills to have extraordinary rookies, physically, at offensive QB and defensive QB.   If they grow to their potential, everyone in the league will look back at this draft and say it was one of the great team-building drafts of all time.   And if they grow to their potential and Phillips becomes Kyle II, McBeane will be proclaimed geniuses.  

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Shaw66

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, Figster said:

Its official and I like the move.

 

The reason I believe Allen may have success in the NFL perhaps a little quicker than most would have anticipated is the same reason Cam Newton did in my humble opinion. Athleticism/ Running ability. Combine that with an OC in Daboll that clearly knows how to win games / Championships with a stiff D and ball control O and you have a match made in football heaven.

 

I'm a Billiever...

 

I agree with everything in here except your confidence in Daboll, who's starting to worry me a little.

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

One reason I like Allen is that, unlike Newton, I think he's coachable.  I think his ceiling is higher than Newton's.  Again, I think we're seeing game to game progress, and in the second half of the season he's going to be carrying the team and held back by his receivers.   We're seeing some of that already.   

 

Also, I think Ray-Ray and Zay will emerge as his two favorite receivers.  

 

Allen's ceiling is definitely higher than Newton. That thread projecting it as "Newton-lite" is absolutely preposterous.

 

But a good OC/QB coach along with some semblance of protection and weapons to get the ball to are integral to any young QB reaching his ceiling, and I'm starting to worry about that.

Edited October 9, 2018 by transplantbillsfan

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I agree with everything in here except your confidence in Daboll, who's starting to worry me a little.

 

Allen's ceiling is definitely higher than Newton. That thread projecting it as "Newton-lite" is absolutely preposterous.

 

But a good OC/QB coach along with some semblance of protection and weapons to get the ball to are integral to any young QB reaching his ceiling, and I'm starting to worry about that.

I agree. First step, which I really like, is bringing in a vet QB.  Allen will learn on field stuff faster. 

[Logic]

49 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

He doesn't have happy feet, he isn't anxious to run, but he seems to know pretty well already when it's time to go.  What he still needs to learn is WHERE to go, because sometimes he runs into sacks when he could have escaped.   But for a rookie he's comfortable in the pocket and he escapes pretty well.

 

Thanks for the reply, Shaw. The bolded really worried me about his college tape, and it showed up against Green Bay last week. This week, however, against the Titans, he looked much more comfortable in the pocket and less quick to bail.

That's what I keep hearing about him from teammates and coaches "He doesn't make the same mistake twice". I hope that's true. 

It's funny. I've seen QBs with A+ intangibles fail because they physically couldn't get the job done. I've also seen physical marvels fail at the position because they didn't have the intangibles. It's very rare to see a QB with all the intangibles AND A+ physical gifts. It will be fascinating to watch his progress as the season goes on. 

I don't really worry too much about his accuracy, by the way. What worries me most is whether or not he can learn to see the field and process coverages, pressures, etc, and respond accordingly. Thus far, he has struggled greatly with this. That is to be expected for a rookie who's only four games into his pro career. As much as I am rooting for him to succeed, I can honestly say I consider his turning into a franchise QB to be a 50-50 proposition at this point. It wouldn't surprise me too much if he succeeded and became a Flacco/Newton/Roethlisberger level starter at the position. It wouldn't surprise me at all, either, if he was out of the league in five years. Here's hoping for the former.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

Thanks for the reply, Shaw. The bolded really worried me about his college tape, and it showed up against Green Bay last week. This week, however, against the Titans, he looked much more comfortable in the pocket and less quick to bail.

That's what I keep hearing about him from teammates and coaches "He doesn't make the same mistake twice". I hope that's true. 

It's funny. I've seen QBs with A+ intangibles fail because they physically couldn't get the job done. I've also seen physical marvels fail at the position because they didn't have the intangibles. It's very rare to see a QB with all the intangibles AND A+ physical gifts. It will be fascinating to watch his progress as the season goes on. 

I don't really worry too much about his accuracy, by the way. What worries me most is whether or not he can learn to see the field and process coverages, pressures, etc, and respond accordingly. Thus far, he has struggled greatly with this. That is to be expected for a rookie who's only four games into his pro career. As much as I am rooting for him to succeed, I can honestly say I consider his turning into a franchise QB to be a 50-50 proposition at this point. It wouldn't surprise me too much if he succeeded and became a Flacco/Newton/Roethlisberger level starter at the position. It wouldn't surprise me at all, either, if he was out of the league in five years. Here's hoping for the former.

I agree, except I doubt he will be out of the league.

 

I agree about accuracy. He's thrown to many good balls to have done it by accident. He does have to be more consistent.  

 

I also think he sees the field very well.  He's shown that.  The problem is that he doesn't always know what he's looking st.  That is, when he gets defensive look that he's familiar with, he is fine.  Its when he's unfamiliar that he's in trouble.  That's study and experience.