BillsVet Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 The Buddy and Doug show avoided drafting a QB for the first 3 off-seasons they were running personnel. And they should have known better than to believe Fitz was long term answer given his how 2011 ended. Their strategy was drafting and spending big on every other position. The nice thing is the new regime took a QB, but has whiffed on moves or not taken players to support their franchise guy. Team building the Nix/Whaley way doesn't work. Time will tell about the current group, but if they aren't a playoff team next year I'm not sure their strategy is much better than their predecessors.
Boca BIlls Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 Who the !@#$ cares about a bunch of hasbeen GMs and QBs
The Wiz Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 (edited) I have a hard time believing Whaley wasn't hitched to EJ in some sense because of two things: The Marrone "fire me" incident EJ playing the last game of the year Whaley even said that his career would depend on him. I don't doubt he would have had some input and throw that out there to let someone else make the pick for him. It's basically giving someone else your own money and letting them make a bet and dealing with whatever happens. Edited October 6, 2018 by The Wiz
BillsSbSoon Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 None of the qbs from that draft turned out to be a franchise qb so it is what it is. We had to take one there or else. I dont really put the shaq lawson pick squarely on whaley either. Imo rex had his hands all over that one
pimp on da' net Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 3 hours ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said: Take this for what it’s worth. On the most recent episode of the Bills Beat podcast Joe B and Fairburn get a bit into evaluating McDermott and Beane. The subject of Whaley comes up. Many have debated what Whaley’s role was in selecting EJ. If you remember he was officially named GM after the 2013 draft, though many speculated he took over for Buddy Nix unofficially before then. So while Buddy was technically GM when the selection was made, many felt it was Whaley’s call. Joe B isn’t one of them. He said that he refuses to believe Whaley was involved with the pick. He thinks EJ was 100% a Buddy Nix move and that Whaley was playing “good soldier” and went along with the pick. What that doesnt explain is why Whaley overspent to trade for Sammy Watkins the next year. It seemed as though that was a result of him trying to justify the selection on EJ. Either way, that’s what Joe B thinks I looked at like this, Whaley chose to surround EJ with weapons to succeed and stop with the notion of he wasn't my pick. Whaley's comments after being fired shed light that EJ may not have been his choice...https://billswire.usatoday.com/2017/05/22/doug-whaley-regrets-not-finding-a-franchise-quarterback-for-the-bills/
Happy Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 Sounds like Whaley was GM half the time he was officially the GM. Too many others had their fingers in the pie. IMO, Whaley didn’t really get a fair shake here as GM. 2
Real McClappy Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) We dumped a WR1 and now have to use another 1st on a WR1 for Allen. Zay is supposed to replace Woods which looks like it will not turn out well at this stage, so in addition we need a WR2. Whaley was getting EJ a WR#1 to pair with Woods, Hogan, Goodwin, Spiller and Fred Jackson. Trading up to get Watkins in hindsight was horrible. Everyone knows though at the time Watkins was hands down the best scouted WR of the class. He was giving the rookie QB a chance to turn into something. It is what it is though. Whaley was forced EJ, this isn't even debatable or some theory as Nix flat out said it's was his parting gift to Buffalo. Whaley was forced Rex Ryan = end story. I liked Whaley and still do as GM. Guy was a real HC of his choice and a QB away from great things here. Edited October 7, 2018 by Real McCoy 1
Happy Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: If you watch the video of the Bills "War Room" during the Sammy trade-up, I have always believed that Russ Brandon had his fingers in that deal somehow. Whaley was working the phones and looking to Brandon/Overdorf miming the deal with his fingers as though seeking approval. Afterwards Brandon and Overdorf were just GIDDY, gleeful. I'm not trying to wash responsibility from Whaley, obviously as GM he needs to shoulder it on his watch. I just think Brandon was involved in pushing for some kind of marketable "splash" or the like. Speaking of Overdorf, wasn't he given authority to manage the salary cap and player contracts? If so, that is who you pin the team unfriendly contracts on, such as those of Dareus and Clay. I doubt Whaley had final approval of the financial dealings regarding players, and may not have had any input in that; may have been Russ and Overdorf. Russ was probably more involved in football operations back then than most believe. Interesting that Beane/McD/Pegulas pushed in to the business side of the house and completely away from the football ops.
TuelTime Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 I'm a big believer that EJ was a Whaley pick. There is just too much evidence to believe otherwise. The Marrone and Whaley fight at the same time EJ was benched for Orton. Obviously, Marrone wanted to win and build a resume and he didn't believe he could do that with EJ at the helm. Whaley wanted his pick to pan out, hence the friction between the two. Another bit of damning evidence is the Sammy pick. I fail to see why Whaley would go all in on a wide receiver for a QB he didn't pick in his first year as GM. To top it off, the only QB he drafted was his last year here and with a late round pick. I understand Rex liked Tyrod, but it is still the GM's responsibility to draft and develop potential QBs, which he didn't do because he already had his guy in EJ. Also, why would they let Buddy have the final say on all of these draft picks when he was already on his way out the door? It doesn't make any sense, except from a public relations standpoint. The front office (most likely Russ) was able to pin the draft on Buddy to shield Whaley from the blame of picking a failure of a QB in the first round. This tactic allowed Russ to sell hope (and tickets) to a demoralized fan base, while giving Whaley an extra year to make something happen. That being said, if you look back at Whaley's drafts, they were pretty decent. Most of the earlier round guys are still in the league and producing. If he had taken Mack instead of Sammy, and passed on QB in 2013, the guy would probably still be here.
bills11 Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 I think its pretty obvious that whaley did not have the power to take the organization in the direction he wanted..with russ brandons constant meddling in areas he had no buisness being in ..brandon is the one who said " dont let rex leave the building " and basically sold ryan to the pegulas. Brandon for sure had a huge role in the watkins trade up..he was always about making moves that he felt sold tickets. Nonetheless whaley found alot of talent while he was here..he just missed on the most vital position his track record is much better than beanes so far.
jkeerie Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 17 minutes ago, bills11 said: I think its pretty obvious that whaley did not have the power to take the organization in the direction he wanted..with russ brandons constant meddling in areas he had no buisness being in ..brandon is the one who said " dont let rex leave the building " and basically sold ryan to the pegulas. Brandon for sure had a huge role in the watkins trade up..he was always about making moves that he felt sold tickets. Nonetheless whaley found alot of talent while he was here..he just missed on the most vital position his track record is much better than beanes so far. Russ really screwed things up. Wasn't it rumored that Whaley wanted Hue Jackson as HC? We would have kept Schwartz at DC. Instead we hired Rex, Schwartz left...and it was all downhill from there. 1
bills11 Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, jkeerie said: Russ really screwed things up. Wasn't it rumored that Whaley wanted Hue Jackson as HC? We would have kept Schwartz at DC. Instead we hired Rex, Schwartz left...and it was all downhill from there. Yeah whaley wanted hue and he was gonna keep shwartz ...russ and pegulas overruled..whaley and pegulas also wanted watson or mahomes..overruled by mcdermott 2
NoSaint Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said: Sounds like Whaley was GM half the time he was officially the GM. Too many others had their fingers in the pie. IMO, Whaley didn’t really get a fair shake here as GM. It was a weird power structure. Whaley carries some blame though. That said, given that he wasn’t selecting coaches he sure as hell stocked a lot of talent on the 53 for the number of scheme switches he dealt with. 1
Happy Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 Just now, NoSaint said: It was a weird power structure. Whaley carries some blame though. That said, given that he wasn’t selecting coaches he sure as hell stocked a lot of talent on the 53 for the number of scheme switches he dealt with. It was a weird power structure with Russ and from the sounds of it, Overdorf too, having input in player selections. Your second point I'm curious about: "Whaley carries some blame though." In what way do you mean? I'm not trying to be argumentative or suggest that Whaley was blameless (his drafting was very mediocre - EJ Manuel aside). I'm just interested in your take.
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 He can refuse all he wants, way too many things point to Whaley being 100% responsible for the EJ pick. Whaley and Russ were a huge reason for the 17 year playoff drought. He will never be a GM in the NFL again.
jkeerie Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, bills11 said: Yeah whaley wanted hue and he was gonna keep shwartz ...russ and pegulas overruled..whaley and pegulas also wanted watson or mahomes..overruled by mcdermott Well even though not drafting Watson or Mahomes looks like an epic failure, at least the Pegulas learned to not meddle and let the guys they hired to run the team make the decisions. There's a traditional hierarchy here now. 1
Thrivefourfive Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 All era’s involved are over. It’s like like asking for the Road to El Doraldo. Somebody speak up!
SoTier Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, FrankReichComeback#14 said: Take this for what it’s worth. On the most recent episode of the Bills Beat podcast Joe B and Fairburn get a bit into evaluating McDermott and Beane. The subject of Whaley comes up. Many have debated what Whaley’s role was in selecting EJ. If you remember he was officially named GM after the 2013 draft, though many speculated he took over for Buddy Nix unofficially before then. So while Buddy was technically GM when the selection was made, many felt it was Whaley’s call. Joe B isn’t one of them. He said that he refuses to believe Whaley was involved with the pick. He thinks EJ was 100% a Buddy Nix move and that Whaley was playing “good soldier” and went along with the pick. What that doesnt explain is why Whaley overspent to trade for Sammy Watkins the next year. It seemed as though that was a result of him trying to justify the selection on EJ. Either way, that’s what Joe B thinks This isn't hard to figure out. It's called putting your QB in a position to succeed, which is a tried and true strategy (see LA Rams, KC Chiefs, Philadelphia Eagles, etc). The Bills drafted WRs Robert Woods (2nd) and Marquise Goodwin (3rd) in 2013, OTs Cyrus Kouandijo (2nd) and Seantrel Henderson (7th) in 2014, and OG John Miller (3rd) in 2015. He also signed LG Richie Incognito and TE Charles Clay in 2015 as UFAs and traded for LeSean McCoy. Even though Manuel was a bust, the offensive players Whaley assembled enabled the Bills to field mid-pack offenses with Kyle Orton and Tyrod Taylor at QB until McDermott decided talent on offense was apparently superflous. Edited October 7, 2018 by SoTier 1
Beast Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 Buddy drafted EJ, retired, put his overalls on, ate some corn and watched some Hee Haw. 1
SoTier Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said: Sounds like Whaley was GM half the time he was officially the GM. Too many others had their fingers in the pie. IMO, Whaley didn’t really get a fair shake here as GM. That's pretty much been part of the Bills "culture" for decades. Chuck Knox left because of it. Bill Polian was fired because he had an issue with Litman, Ralph's son-in-law. Whaley wasn't really an independent GM as most teams have as I think he was either equal to or subservient to the HC du jour. Brandon always had his sticky fingers in personnel matters going back to 2006 when he hired Jauron and installed Marv Levy as a figurehead GM. Probably Overdorf, too. 1
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