Trent Dilfer: "I don't think Josh Allen should be playing"

[Ol Dirty B]

6 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

I take anything these guys say with a grain of salt.  What to David Carr, Jordan Palmer, Trent Dilfer, Chris Simms have in common?  They all failed as NFL qbs.  I sat though dozens of Bucs home games and Trent was horrible.  His post games were usually filled with finger pointing and excuse making.  They guy shrunk from pressure and was scared to get hit.  Bucs had that high pick invested so they stuck with him for way too long .  He wasnt any better even when he had arguably the best modern era defense with the ravens along with  a great running game they won despite him .  Guy could have been put into the 49ers system under Bill Walsh and he would have sucked.  QBs who are scared to get him and scared to push the ball downfield rarely if ever fix those traits.  Allen hasnt shown any of that. 

 

I don't know about David Carr, but I'm pretty sure all of the other guys you listed love Allen as a prospect. So are you saying because they failed in the NFL that we should ignore them? Andy Reid never was a good QB in the NFL either so I guess his opinion is stupid.

 

What is your point other than you went to some bucs games and saw dilfer play 20 years ago? 

 

Also the west coast offense is predicated upon short horizontal routes and a few shots down field. It is by no means a vertical passing game that emphasizes pushing the ball down field.

[TPS]

I think it was Monday's McD presser where he was visibly angry about the O, but more so about protecting the QB. While he mentioned the O-line, I think he was really pissed about play calls that put Allen in Jeopardy.  You want to ruin a young QB, let him get hit and hit and hit until he becomes too frightened to stand in the pocket, as we've seen before.  

I expect the playcalling going forward will be much more conservative in that respect...

[artmalibu]

McBean is screwing Allen up....  Hand the ball off to RBs 11 time and have him drop back over 40.  

 

The whole staff should be fired!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ga boy]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think you're mistaken. 

 

As evidence I offer a thread I started elsewhere, which includes pictures from all-22, and later in a link to an Eric Wood interview about working with a young QB and how he as center took on the role of setting the protections.

 

Yes, Allen does hold the ball too long sometimes or try to extend the play when he should throw it away, and yes, sometimes he misses a blitz pickup.  That's not 80-90% though.

I've gotta agree with VW.  Brady knows 90% of the time where the ball is going before he takes one step backward.  Earlier I criticized TT for not having a mindset to throw the ball, and not ready to throw it.  JA has the former but he's not ready to throw it.  Going through the progressions is overblown.  In summer, I argued that he must be coached to throw it in 2 secs, but it seems he hasn't been.  Please teach the guy to throw it in 2 secs!!! 

[buffalobloodfloridahome]

Truth be told Allen has been playing almost the same way at Wyoming all of last year with a decimated oline literally no weapons and he was expected to rise above all of that and win games and raise his draft stock. He was almost always outmatched talent wise so this is nothing new. I wish we had the ability to let him sit and learn but per usual we draft a QB and have no veteran presence to aid him in learning how to be a pro.

Edited October 6, 2018 by buffalobloodfloridahome

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Ga boy said:

I've gotta agree with VW.  Brady knows 90% of the time where the ball is going before he takes one step backward.  Earlier I criticized TT for not having a mindset to throw the ball, and not ready to throw it.  JA has the former but he's not ready to throw it.  Going through the progressions is overblown.  In summer, I argued that he must be coached to throw it in 2 secs, but it seems he hasn't been.  Please teach the guy to throw it in 2 secs!!! 

 

What does Brady have to do with whether or not 80-90% of our protection problems are on Allen for not setting the correct OL protections pre-snap?

 

Also, you don't  coach guys to "throw it in 2 seconds".  They either recognize what they're seeing pre and post snap and are able to get it out that quickly, or they're trying to develop that ability.  Some never do.  Setting an alarm clock or a fog horn or other stuff folks have suggested doesn't help develop that ability.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 10/5/2018 at 10:50 AM, oldmanfan said:

I am still somewhat mystified why we don't have a more veteran QB backing him up or playing right now.  But looking ta things in total, I believed as did management that McCarron would be that veteran bridge guy who would take snaps while Allen got ready.  So let's say he did, or if now we brought in a Landry or Moore or somebody.  We could still be 1-3 or even 0-4.  And all we'd be doing right now anyway is calling for them to start Allen.  

 

I am too but this is a bit what I think.

 

In some ways the ideal situation is what Mahomes got in KC: a coach and system that have been in place for years, good OL and very talented skill players, and the chance to sit behind a successful vet QB who'd been in the system for years and learn to prepare, watch film, read Ds without getting smacked about.  If that vet tells you do this, don't do that, Young Gun knows he's speaking from hard won experience and listens up.  Everyone is on the same page in the room.

 

Well, we don't have most of that for Allen, which seems to be a strategic decision of get the QB and MLB first, look for those other pieces later.  The real head-scratcher is why didn't we go for that proven vet who can play and have someone who when they say, "Do this, Don't do that" has words that carry the weight of years and bruises?

 

I've thought about it, and I think the real reason why we didn't acquire someone better as a vet mentor backup is that Daboll didn't want one.  I think he wanted Allen to be a Tabula Rasa on which he could write how he wants things done, without any fear of argument or contradiction from an experienced player.  I think that's why the "vet" we brought in was a vet only in years accrued, with minimal playing experience, and learning a new system.  If we made a push to bring in, say, Fitzy - Fitzy played E-P under Bill O'Brien, under Chan Gailey (2x), and 4 other OCs.  If Daboll says "do A 'cuz B" Fitzy can and probably will say "but wait a minute, we saw that in Houston and they actually did C so what about do D cuz C?"  Same would go for trying to entice in a Derek Anderson or a Matt Moore or even a Teddy Bridgewater.

 

If that's the reason, it's unfortunate, so I hope I'm wrong and there's some marvelous insightful master plan or even a bit of bungling behind it.

The saying goes that successful guys hire people smarter than they are, or as another friend put it A types hire A types; B types hire C types.

[oldmanfan]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I am too but this is a bit what I think.

 

In some ways the ideal situation is what Mahomes got in KC: a coach and system that have been in place for years, good OL and very talented skill players, and the chance to sit behind a successful vet QB who'd been in the system for years and learn to prepare, watch film, read Ds without getting smacked about.  If that vet tells you do this, don't do that, Young Gun knows he's speaking from hard won experience and listens up.  Everyone is on the same page in the room.

 

Well, we don't have most of that for Allen, which seems to be a strategic decision of get the QB and MLB first, look for those other pieces later.  The real head-scratcher is why didn't we go for that proven vet who can play and have someone who when they say, "Do this, Don't do that" has words that carry the weight of years and bruises?

 

I've thought about it, and I think the real reason why we didn't acquire someone better as a vet mentor backup is that Daboll didn't want one.  I think he wanted Allen to be a Tabula Rasa on which he could write how he wants things done, without any fear of argument or contradiction from an experienced player.  I think that's why the "vet" we brought in was a vet only in years accrued, with minimal playing experience, and learning a new system.  If we made a push to bring in, say, Fitzy - Fitzy played E-P under Bill O'Brien, under Chan Gailey (2x), and 4 other OCs.  If Daboll says "do A 'cuz B" Fitzy can and probably will say "but wait a minute, we saw that in Houston and they actually did C so what about do D cuz C?"  Same would go for trying to entice in a Derek Anderson or a Matt Moore or even a Teddy Bridgewater.

 

If that's the reason, it's unfortunate, so I hope I'm wrong and there's some marvelous insightful master plan or even a bit of bungling behind it.

The saying goes that successful guys hire people smarter than they are, or as another friend put it A types hire A types; B types hire C types.

Interesting thoughts here

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

18 hours ago, Augie said:

 

I happen to agree with Trent. I also support the FO for the most part....but if I had to name the worst mistake they’ve made, I’d have to start with not having a viable vet QB. Peterman fooled them, and I doubt AJ would be any better.  I hope Josh survives mentally and physically. I’m not really worried about our record this year, but you can’t lose the locker room by getting thrashed by 40+ every week. 

 

...think that AJ certainly would have been more capable......starting the last pre-season game, he exhibited expected ring rust coming off injury for the first 3 quarters, but rebounded nicely in the 4th......knowing with CERTAINTY we were "all set" at QB, McBeane rushes to dump him, "stealing a coveted 5th round pick"......so now ith Josh being "protected" by our "rock solid" OL and Peterman waiting in the bull pen if called to close out a W, we should have ZERO worries IMO.....

[BarleyNY]

23 hours ago, Peter said:

 

That is very depressing given that situational football and match ups are supposed to be his strengths. 

 

P.S.  I am beginning to wonder whether his joining the Bills was his decision to come back home etc. (as I believed and continue to believe at least for now) or was he motivated by any perceived insecurity working for Nick Saban.

 

A few years ago my daughter played on the same team as Dabol’s.  I met him and he seemed like a decent guy.  I’m sure being near her was a big factor in him wanting to move back here. 

[Capco]

On 10/5/2018 at 12:55 AM, VW82 said:

 

This is such a frustrating line of thinking to me. 

 

Quick story from my youth: I went to university with this girl "Jenny" (her Canadian name) who was from rural China. We were in a bunch of classes together first year. She spoke English well enough to understand what was going on but still struggled badly. The rest of us were just so far ahead of her it wasn't fair. She legit flunked out and had to take a bunch of hundred level courses over again in the summer, and then again the next summer. The thing was Jenny was brilliant, way smarter and more naturally gifted than the rest of us, and ultimately medalled at congregation. But she was so close to flunking out and having to move back home. It really could have gone either way for her at various points that first year.

 

To ignore circumstance and context, and pretend like they don't play a massive role in the success of people is just plain ignorant. Good is not always good enough without a little help. If Allen flames out it will be because of a variety of factors, and will depend at least partly on the circumstance he flamed out in.   

 

Excellent post. This reminds me of a John Roberts quote: 

 

“From time to time, in the years to come, I hope you will be treated unfairly, so that you will come to know the value of justice. I hope that you will suffer betrayal because that will teach you the importance of loyalty. Sorry to say, but I hope you will be lonely from time to time, so that you don't take friends for granted. I wish you bad luck again, from time to time, so that you will be conscious of the role of chance in life and understand that your success is not completely deserved and the failure of others is not completely deserved either. And when you lose, as you will from time to time, I hope every now and then, your opponent will gloat over your failure. It is a way for you to understand the importance of sportsmanship. I hope you will be ignored, so you know the importance of listening to others, and I hope you will have just enough pain to learn compassion.”

[Augie]

35 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...think that AJ certainly would have been more capable......starting the last pre-season game, he exhibited expected ring rust coming off injury for the first 3 quarters, but rebounded nicely in the 4th......knowing with CERTAINTY we were "all set" at QB, McBeane rushes to dump him, "stealing a coveted 5th round pick"......so now ith Josh being "protected" by our "rock solid" OL and Peterman waiting in the bull pen if called to close out a W, we should have ZERO worries IMO.....

 

Maybe it would have been more accurate to say AJ wasn’t going to be good enough either, but the result is the same....we are stuck in a rough spot. I tend to be more positive than negative in my view of FO and staff (as opposed to...you know...the other folks), but I’ll concede this was the biggest mess up so far, IMO. (The OLine would look better if we still had a LG and C, as was expected, but there were some surprises there.) 

[buffaloboyinATL]

Many people thought Dilfer shouldn’t have been playing either, and he won a Super Bowl. 

[GoBills808]

14 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Yea... you really disproved him there. Solid post. You made so many good points.

 

I don't agree with his last sentence either, but his post didn't deserve that kind of response.

 

But when you can't say anything meaningful, go and insult.

Self aware much? 

 

You think the Rams future hinged on Goff's mediocre rookie season? The Eagles on Wentz's? Bears w/ Trubisky? Ridiculous thought. 

 

And the fact that Darnold is getting a pass in his eyes because he's looking equally average (at best) but somehow has got 'nothing left to learn on the bench' is really meaningful to you, I suppose.

 

Oh, and he mentioned Mike Glennon as an option. And then immediately followed that up with how playing Allen has supposedly 'squandered' all the goodwill from fans that their playoff run generated. So if you needed any 'disproving' of his thoughts, and a brief scan of the comment didn't suffice, I don't know what to tell you. The entire post is just the Bad Bills narrative writ large; it's totally unoriginal, I'm tired of reading it, and if I have to poke it to pieces every time I have to read another thoughtless post like it I will. 

[HappyDays]

On 10/5/2018 at 2:19 AM, LABILLBACKER said:

The biggest mistake McB made this offseason was not acquiring a decent veteran mentor qb. And No, neither Peterman nor McCarron qualify.  Now he's got to be forced into the fire with a lousy offensive line &  wide receiver group. I also blame Daboll for bizarre play calling in the LA & GB games. 

 

Rosen's mentor is a hobbled Sam Bradford playing the worst football of his life.

 

Mayfield's mentor is Tyrod Taylor who has somehow gotten worse since last year.

 

Darnold's mentor is Josh McCown and he's playing worse than Rosen or Mayfield, in fact he's regressed in every game.

 

There is no such thing as a "great veteran mentor." You either turn out good or you don't. Many of the same fans who previously were wondering why Peterman was the starter are now complaining Allen was thrown in too early. I wish we could have embraced the tank but it's too late now. Allen will have to learn on the job. It's going to look ugly at times. Hopefully the light turns on next year.

Edited October 6, 2018 by HappyDays

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 10/4/2018 at 11:55 PM, VW82 said:

 

This is such a frustrating line of thinking to me. 

 

Quick story from my youth: I went to university with this girl "Jenny" (her Canadian name) who was from rural China. We were in a bunch of classes together first year. She spoke English well enough to understand what was going on but still struggled badly. The rest of us were just so far ahead of her it wasn't fair. She legit flunked out and had to take a bunch of hundred level courses over again in the summer, and then again the next summer. The thing was Jenny was brilliant, way smarter and more naturally gifted than the rest of us, and ultimately medalled at congregation. But she was so close to flunking out and having to move back home. It really could have gone either way for her at various points that first year.

 

To ignore circumstance and context, and pretend like they don't play a massive role in the success of people is just plain ignorant. Good is not always good enough without a little help. If Allen flames out it will be because of a variety of factors, and will depend at least partly on the circumstance he flamed out in.   

 

Excellent post and with surprising parallels.

 

Josh Allen is struggling with the same things all rookie QB struggle with: the speed of the pro game, the fact that he's now competing against the top few percent of every college football program, the complexity of NFL defenses, the complexity of Daboll's plays, just as 'Jenny' struggled with the things every college freshman struggles with - the fact that she's now in school with students selected from the top few percent of each high school class, the fact that the pace of each class is faster, the understanding required is deeper, and there are more distractions.

 

Meanwhile Allen has an extra handicap - learning to throw with better technique to improve his accuracy and his ability to make short/intermediate throws on roll-outs or in the backfield.  It's something he has to work on extra every day, just as Jenny had to work extra to understand the language and improve her mastery, in addition to the normal college work all the rest of you put in.

 

The Bills could be doing a lot more to help Allen out.

[HappyDays]

On 10/5/2018 at 9:45 AM, the skycap said:

This is why I'm still pissed they traded away AJ McCarron!! This kid and team needed/need a vet QB. Someone who has won games in this league.

 

Everyone has forgotten how terrible he looked in the last preseason game. That was one of the worst QB performances I've ever seen. I'm still shocked we got a 5th rounder for him and it's looking like a pretty high 5th rounder. In the range of where that pick will be, this regime has taken Matt Milano and Taron Johnson. I would take either of those players over anything McCarron would offer us this year.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Everyone has forgotten how terrible he looked in the last preseason game. That was one of the worst QB performances I've ever seen. I'm still shocked we got a 5th rounder for him and it's looking like a pretty high 5th rounder. In the range of where that pick will be, this regime has taken Matt Milano and Taron Johnson. I would take either of those players over anything McCarron would offer us this year.

Thus far it seems like a majority of the people upset at the FO were hoping for AJ McCarron to be a Bills QB. I've also read Mike Glennon today. Because either of those guys would definitely have saved this season. Obviously.

[HappyDays]

20 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Thus far it seems like a majority of the people upset at the FO were hoping for AJ McCarron to be a Bills QB. I've also read Mike Glennon today. Because either of those guys would definitely have saved this season. Obviously.

 

There's a lot of hand wringing over this mythical veteran mentor that would save Josh Allen's development. All after exactly one game where the whole offense looked like crap. This past week has felt like a whole season. I'm trying to remember how Bills fans made it through the 3 consecutive blowouts last year without burning New Era to the ground.

[John from Riverside]

On 10/5/2018 at 7:52 AM, Peter said:

McBeane have not done Josh any favors at all.  Indeed, given the huge investment in assets we gave up to get him and the fact that he is raw, it is shocking what they have done (and not done) with this offense.

 

I was not a huge fan of drafting him, but now that we have him and he seems to be such a great kid, I would have liked McBeane to have maximized Josh's opportunity for success or positive development. 

 

I think that McBeane have failed Josh.

 

P.S. They also traded the one guy who knows the playbook and could have stepped in to avoid throwing Josh into the fire with substandard talent around him.

The team was not ready for Josh Allen to start that is pretty obvious

 

The only thing we can hope for now is that the team actually improves over the course of the season and we can see who should be kept/released next year as they start really fillingout the roster.

 

Your seeing some guys who definately do not deserve to be here like Kelvin Benjamin.....guys that give minimal effort and talk talk like they just need to keep grinding.

 

I would not mind seieng KB actually deactivated for a game so they can show him that he is in fact "not grinding"