Trent Dilfer: "I don't think Josh Allen should be playing"

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Just now, row_33 said:

 

I saw him win a Super Bowl, were you in a Rip van Winkle sleep that season?

 

 

 

His best play was a reception that game.

 

He was super awesome at  handing the ball to Jamal Lewis though...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

While Dilfer may see a lot of himself in Allen, there is very little the two QBs actually have in common. Dilfer was never a great QB, nor was he the foundation of the franchise (a.k.a Ray Lewis). He was just on the right team at the right time and did a job. Allen may never have half the team the Ravens did during those years. 

 

I agree with most of your post, but the above seems to be forgetting that Dilfer was, in fact, DRAFTED at #6 overall, TO BE THE FOUNDATION of the Tampa Bay Bucs franchise. Tampa Bay invested 6 years in him, before giving up and letting him move on to "the right team at the right time to do a job" in Baltimore.  And in fact, in his 4th season, he did manage some decent numbers and saw playoffs and winning records for 2 years under Dungy, before they moved on to 2nd round dud King.

 

Dilfer's point is that just maybe, if he'd been drafted into a situation where he could sit and learn behind a vet and had more of a team around him afterwards, he might have been able to fulfill the promise of his successful and record-setting college career that led to his draft status.  And he's concerned that will happen to Allen as well.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I agree with most of your post, but the above seems to be forgetting that Dilfer was, in fact, DRAFTED IN 1994 TO BE THE FOUNDATION of the Tampa Bay Bucs franchise. 

Tampa Bay invested 6 years in him, before giving up and letting him move on to "the right team at the right time to do a job".

 

Dilfer's point is that just maybe, if he'd been drafted into a situation where he could sit and learn behind a vet and had more of a team around him afterwards, he might have been able to fulfill the promise of his successful and record-setting college career that led to his draft status.  And he's concerned that will happen to Allen as well.

I think Deboll is Josh Allen's mentor....those two appear to be joined at the hip......

 

I wonder if Deboll gets legit upset when he watches offensive linemen not pick up a blitz correctly and watches his boy get smashed.......or a guy like KB and his entitled attitude not go the extra effort to help out his QB

 

Rookie QBs need help from the rest of the team especially if they are raw which Allen is......it is not fair to ask Josh Allen to elevate the play of a bad team

[ctk232]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is actually something that can be accomplished.

1) Some of the sacks are not guys getting beat, they are protection failures.  "How do they fail to see not one, but two, linebackers coming up the middle?" 

Daboll: Fix it.

2) Allen is trying too hard at times and needs to throw it away and not take a 10 yd loss.  He knows this.  He says this.  Hopefully he learns this.

3) I don't know about more conservative, but different gameplan, more appropriate for down and distance and with clear checkdowns all the time, Yes.

 

1) Daboll needs to step up and prove he's still an OC of NFL caliber. That being said, what exactly does he have to work with? A rookie QB, an average yet porous OL, handless receivers, an aging East/West RB, and a broken TE in Clay. Let's have the Daboll criticism start next year. That being said, Daboll could use this year to really help Allen along. We all know teams will blitz on 3rd down until we demonstrate we can pick it up - so plan for that, have the playcall in early, let Allen get to the line and see the defense. Give him 2 short hot routes on either side of the line and let him diagnose and execute. 

2) Agreed - you think he's letting the pressure of starting and being QB1 get to him a little? I think he'll learn this eventually, but I see a kid so desperate to prove himself and wants to win so badly that he'll make these in the moment mistakes. But yes, hopefully he learns.

3) See 1 - we all know teams will blitz the bejesus out of Allen until he beats it. So give him playcalls and packages that let him do that. Hell, develop a whole new offensive blitz prevent package if you have to. But this is something that can be prepared ahead of time and developed in practices.

[Gigs]

If Allen doesn’t pan out Beane isn’t getting a 2nd chance, we get a new GM and HC and new vision and another purge for their own players. Incompetency, like not having any contingent plan at QB, will set us back another 6 years after Beane finally gets the boot. 

 

Or maybe Allen bucks the trend and becomes a franchise QB...which isn’t something that happens ever in these cases, but you never know. Personally I would’ve built off of a playoff appearance instead of blowing up the team and failing to replace starters correctly. I’m about to be 31, maybe I should go woo the Pegulas and be the next young gun GM? I promise y’all I won’t devoid the team of talent because I’d rather win than look presentable while I’m losing. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

39 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

1) Daboll needs to step up and prove he's still an OC of NFL caliber. That being said, what exactly does he have to work with? A rookie QB, an average yet porous OL, handless receivers, an aging East/West RB, and a broken TE in Clay. Let's have the Daboll criticism start next year.

 

I'm sorry, I can't do that.  I'm seeing too much of what looks weird to me in the playcalling.  And by weird, I mean "situationally inappropriate and not designed for success given our personnel"

 

A pretty unambiguous example would be our 2nd series against Green Bay on the 6 yard line.  2nd and 10 [edit: I'm mistaken, this was 1st and 10], max protect, called a play where (Sal C thinks) the first read was a slant to Benjamin on the 8 yd line.  There was a deeper route to Zay Jones that I thought *should* be the first read, but it took 3 sec for Zay to finish his route and get open - which he did - and Allen never looked that way and threw before Zay made his break.  In what galaxy does it make sense to use max protect for a play where the first read is a slant with a 2 yard gain on 2nd and 10?  It's not like Benjamin is "Mr Cut on Dime YAC".

 

Then on 3rd and 10....4 WR, only one had a route past the sticks.  All guys well covered, and it's not clear whether Allen threw it away, or tried for a throw where only his WR had a play on it but it sailed a bit on him.  His best shot was to Holmes for about 5.  This would be a great play to call ..... on 1st or 2nd down maybe, if it works you move the chains, if it doesn't you gain 5-7 yards and earn more 3rd down options.

 

I could go through the game like that.

 

I don't think I'm the only one who sees this.

 

 

[John from Riverside]

11 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

What does that have to do with Dilfers comments? 

Nothing specifically....it was just me thinking out loud

[ctk232]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I agree with most of your post, but the above seems to be forgetting that Dilfer was, in fact, DRAFTED at #6 overall, TO BE THE FOUNDATION of the Tampa Bay Bucs franchise. Tampa Bay invested 6 years in him, before giving up and letting him move on to "the right team at the right time to do a job" in Baltimore.  And in fact, in his 4th season, he did manage some decent numbers and saw playoffs and winning records for 2 years under Dungy, before they moved on to 2nd round dud King.

 

Dilfer's point is that just maybe, if he'd been drafted into a situation where he could sit and learn behind a vet and had more of a team around him afterwards, he might have been able to fulfill the promise of his successful and record-setting college career that led to his draft status.  And he's concerned that will happen to Allen as well.

 

That's a very valid point - and certainly provides parallels to how I'm seeing Allen's first year unfold so far. I would still be cautious to credit Dilfer's success more so to his performance considering the coaches and team around him. But I would be curious how Allen's inherent traits and ability change his early development and experience from Dilfer's. Not that I'd like to witness any such experiment on our potential future of the franchise...  

 

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm sorry, I can't do that.  I'm seeing too much of what looks weird to me in the playcalling.  And by weird, I mean "situationally inappropriate and not designed for success given our personnel"

 

A pretty unambiguous example would be our 2nd series against Green Bay on the 6 yard line.  2nd and 10, max protect, called a play where (Sal C thinks) the first read was a slant to Benjamin on the 8 yd line.  There was a deeper route to Zay Jones that I thought *should* be the first read, but it took 3 sec for Zay to finish his route - too long in that situation - and Allen never looked that way.  In what galaxy does it make sense to use max protect for a play where the first read is a slant with a 2 yard gain on 2nd and 10?  It's not like Benjamin is "Mr Cut on Dime YAC".

 

Then on 3rd and 10....4 WR, only one had a route past the sticks.  All guys well covered, and it's not clear whether Allen threw it away, or tried for a throw where only his WR had a play on it but it sailed a bit on him.  His best shot was to Holmes for about 5.  This would be a great play to call ..... on 1st or 2nd down maybe, if it works you move the chains, if it doesn't you gain 5-7 yards and earn more 3rd down options.

 

I could go through the game like that.

 

I don't think I'm the only one who sees this.

 

 

He's had very questionable play calls at times, specifically in agreement with the two examples you provide. I've also seen examples of some great playcalling (mostly from the Minnesota game) thinking about the 5 yd slant to KB off rightside pressure (dropped albeit), and the Croom TD with an optioned Ivory to the flat. Daboll still very much needs to prove himself in the NFL, but how much he feels he has to compensate at present for max protect in situations where it doesn't call for it might be symptomatic of a larger offense issue with lack of options/ability.

 

Where I have a bone to pick with Daboll, and the WR corps as well, are the typical routes we are running, but especially on downs when we know pressure is coming. We see very little separation, and especially to your point of Zay taking three extra seconds to complete his route. Even with his strong arm, it would make sense that Allen could appreciate and develop more from a focus on 5-10 yard passes emphasizing quick reads and releases.

 

While I doubt McD has oversight on offensive playcalling, I wonder how much of what we're seeing is Daboll attempting to respond to our current personnel, and how much is simply just his playcalling style...

46 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

At this point AJM would simply be the guy taking the punishment so Josh would not have to till this offense got its crap together.....it wouldnt even be about wins

If all you want is a punching bag, Peterman is the cheaper option then still. Especially if wins don't matter

[Peter]

24 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm sorry, I can't do that.  I'm seeing too much of what looks weird to me in the playcalling.  And by weird, I mean "situationally inappropriate and not designed for success given our personnel"

 

 

 

 

 

That is very depressing given that situational football and match ups are supposed to be his strengths. 

 

P.S.  I am beginning to wonder whether his joining the Bills was his decision to come back home etc. (as I believed and continue to believe at least for now) or was he motivated by any perceived insecurity working for Nick Saban.

[Reed83HOF]

12 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

I disagree with us not having a choice though. We could sign any number of veterans and let them take the beat down (something we should've done this offseason anyway). Hell, we could've kept McCarron if we didn't even want that. And as much as I don't think Peterman offers us any great chance to win, you made this whole offseason about EARNING the starting spot, said Peterman EARNED it, then yanked him after a half for what? Throwing 2 picks & not moving the offense? Well Allen's done that in a couple games now too, it was kind of easy to see that was going to happen 1 way or another MONTHS AGO.

If the season is lost, if the offense is going to suck no matter what, if our QB is going to get sacked like crazy, if regardless of who we put behind center is going to throw a bunch of picks, why can't you throw in any other warm body instead of the guy who NEEDED to sit, learn and develop, instead of take an epic beatdown every week? Man, I'd rather watch Kaepernick kneel every 3rd & long on the field than watch our rookie mindlessly spin-move to his blindside, right into an oncoming rusher who knocks his block off time & time again! I just feel so aggravated that with an awful O-line, awful WR's, no veteran QB, and no plan-B, we take the one QB out of the group that is least likely to succeed in that situation...

And it's especially upsetting when you read back at Allen's pre-draft breakdowns, where his biggest gifts are his physical attributes but his most glaring weaknesses signal "NEEDS TO DEVELOP & SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVE" if he's ever to have an even semi-decent chance of succeeding in the league. How many QB's have the Bills successfully developed in the modern era in their entire history!?!? They didn't even develop Jim Kelly from the start...as he played 2 years of pro football before even suiting up for the Bills. Sure wasn't Todd Collins, Alex Van Pelt, JP Losman, EJ Manuel, Jeff Tuel, Rob Johnson, Trent Edwards... Different coaching staffs, different personnel, I know. It's just hard to see us succeeding in that regard where others could not. I really, REALLY hope we do though.

 

I will pile on and say that the FO failed to help this kid. We did have some money to spend this year and we dumped it into the defense. Let's face everyone knew we were going after a QB and we did absolutely nothing to to improve that side of the ball. Going in with Peterman was an awful idea and once AJ was traded we should have signed a vet. Richie had his breakdown and retired, Wood had to call it a career and we didn't attempt to address any holes there. While I like the aggressiveness to address the QB position and LB position - the way the FO constructed this team for this season concerns me. A LOT.  

[Figster]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

At this point AJM would simply be the guy taking the punishment so Josh would not have to till this offense got its crap together.....it wouldnt even be about wins

I respectfully disagree, while it may have been one teams 3rds against another A J McCarron showed an ability to turn the tide in his last preseason game IMO.

[nedboy7]

Allen’s QB coach is a wide receivers coach. His offensive coordinator has no history of developing young quarterbacks whatsoever. They gave Allen no veteran starter, or backup, like, say, Sam Darnold of the Jets has to watch or to talk to on the sidelines. The one veteran they did bring in never really started, and they all but immediately passed him onto another team for a fifth-round draft pick.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

13 hours ago, Success said:

I’m very torn on this. For starters, we don’t have a choice.

 

The selfish part of me wants to just see him play, now.  I also like the idea that he’ll have a lot of game experience when they can finally surround him with talent, so he’ll be ready and we won’t have to go through the usual growing pains.

 

But he’s really getting beat up out there, and a lot of this isn’t fair to him.

^^^^^^ This. A lot of us probably felt the same way at the end of camp that the prudent thing would be to have AJ/Nate combo play out the string for this year until the roster would be in a position to actually be competitive around Josh. Then after Nate fell flat and with AJ gone, what exactly were we to do? The selfish part of me also wanted to see him play now too. But definitely have my worries with his health, confidence issues, etc.

Edited October 5, 2018 by NoHuddleKelly12

[SoCoBills]

Trent is wrong and he is the one who said exactly why he’s wrong when he said that Josh is strong both physically & mentally. 

 

Josh doesn’t seem like the type of kid who, if he doesn’t have instant success will lose confidence and be permanently ruined. He’s tough. He can handle failure. 

 

 

Next. 

[Peter]

1 minute ago, SoCoBills said:

Trent is wrong and he is the one who said exactly why he’s wrong when he said that Josh is strong both physically & mentally. 

 

Josh doesn’t seem like the type of kid who, if he doesn’t have instant success will lose confidence and be permanently ruined. He’s tough. He can handle failure. 

 

 

Next. 

 

We certainly are going to find out whether he can handle "failure" because that is the situation that McBeane have foisted upon him.  The kid is an engaging guy, and I really would like him to succeed.  Our brain trust did him absolutely NO favors though.

 

I am not as optimistic as you.  I think that it could really hurt his development and confidence - not to mention his health.  I also am not looking forward to him and the offense being serenaded with boos as the Sabres were just last night in the first freaking game of the season.  Buffalo sports fans seem to have very little patience right now.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

58 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

[daboll]

He's had very questionable play calls at times, specifically in agreement with the two examples you provide. (...) how much he feels he has to compensate at present for max protect in situations where it doesn't call for it might be symptomatic of a larger offense issue with lack of options/ability.

 

Where I have a bone to pick with Daboll, and the WR corps as well, are the typical routes we are running, but especially on downs when we know pressure is coming. We see very little separation, and especially to your point of Zay taking three extra seconds to complete his route. Even with his strong arm, it would make sense that Allen could appreciate and develop more from a focus on 5-10 yard passes emphasizing quick reads and releases.

 

Daboll IMO called a much better game vs. Minn.  that allowed Allen to have some success early.

 

Where I have a bone to pick with Daboll is that he seems to get too cute.  He reminds me of Vizzini in the Iocaine scene from Princess Bride

He tries to layer plans within plans within plans, which would be great if everyone were reading from the same script, but instead they've just poisoned both cups and are ready to drink from either.

 

It's not that the max protect is being called in a situation that doesn't call for it.  Our backs to the goal line with an iffy OL and a run game that can't get off the ground, max protect is fine.   The reason Zay took 3 seconds to run his route was not because he's a bad WR who can't get separation and is taking extra time...he might have been jammed a bit releasing off the line, but primarily it's because his route was timed to accommodate a play fake, and to be longer than needed to move the sticks, out to the 24 yd line. 

 

So here we have a fancy-pants play, featuring a play fake, then trying to get the D to bite on a longer pass, when the goal is a quick slant.  It's Rube Goldberg - so many moving parts designed to perform a simple task in an indirect and overly complicated fashion - and the GB defense is not fooled at all.  Once it's clear it's a playfake, Allen is looking for Benjamin all the way, and the D is looking at Allen, so they're looking at Benjamin all the way.   

 

Now see here is where I honestly hate to blather on because Lord knows I'm no expert, but part of what bothers me is that I feel Daboll isn't working in harmony with how decent NFL defenses actually play.  Someone who knows more could articulate this better.  A disciplined D that bites or partly bites on the run, is not going to switch that off and chase after Zay.   It doesn't make sense (IMO) to think that they would.  They're going to maintain their gap discipline,  trust their safeties to do their job, and follow the QB's eyes to Benjamin then jump on the slant.  So if the route were designed so it could go to Zay in 2 sec, and Benjamin were the decoy, it seems like it could work better - provided Allen could sell it.  It just doesn't seem like a design to really work with an actual NFL defense.  It seems like something you come up with at 2 am talking to yourself and a more assertive HC hits with a red pencil.

 

I dunno maybe I'm just all full of it.  But the problem is certainly not that our WR are always covered like blankets or that our OL can't block.  They aren't and they can, within bounds.  And it's not that the GB D doesn't have a soft underbelly, they do.  Erik Turner at Cover1 wrote a piece about it, and in fact later in the game, Daboll used some of the same concepts Erik brought up and they worked.

 

It's so frustrating because you're absolutely right, sometimes Daboll designs and calls great plays.  But other times - boy howdy.

[ctk232]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Daboll IMO called a much better game vs. Minn.  that allowed Allen to have some success early.

 

Where I have a bone to pick with Daboll is that he seems to get too cute.  He reminds me of Vizzini in the Iocaine scene from Princess Bride

He tries to layer plans within plans within plans, which would be great if everyone were reading from the same script, but instead they've just poisoned both cups and are ready to drink from either.

 

It's not that the max protect is being called in a situation that doesn't call for it.  Our backs to the goal line with an iffy OL and a run game that can't get off the ground, max protect is fine.   The reason Zay took 3 seconds to run his route was not because he's a bad WR who can't get separation and is taking extra time...he might have been jammed a bit releasing off the line, but primarily it's because his route was timed to accommodate a play fake, and to be longer than needed to move the sticks, out to the 24 yd line. 

 

So here we have a fancy-pants play, featuring a play fake, then trying to get the D to bite on a longer pass, when the goal is a quick slant.  It's Rube Goldberg - so many moving parts designed to perform a simple task in an indirect and overly complicated fashion - and the GB defense is not fooled at all.  Once it's clear it's a playfake, Allen is looking for Benjamin all the way, and the D is looking at Allen, so they're looking at Benjamin all the way.   

 

Now see here is where I honestly hate to blather on because Lord knows I'm no expert, but part of what bothers me is that I feel Daboll isn't working in harmony with how decent NFL defenses actually play.  Someone who knows more could articulate this better.  A disciplined D that bites or partly bites on the run, is not going to switch that off and chase after Zay.   It doesn't make sense (IMO) to think that they would.  They're going to maintain their gap discipline,  trust their safeties to do their job, and follow the QB's eyes to Benjamin then jump on the slant.  So if the route were designed so it could go to Zay in 2 sec, and Benjamin were the decoy, it seems like it could work better - provided Allen could sell it.  It just doesn't seem like a design to really work with an actual NFL defense.  It seems like something you come up with at 2 am talking to yourself.

 

I dunno maybe I'm just all full of it.  But the problem is certainly not that our WR are always covered like blankets or that our OL can't block.  They aren't and they can, within bounds.  And it's not that the GB D doesn't have a soft underbelly, they do.  Erik Turner at Cover1 wrote a piece about it, and in fact later in the game, Daboll used some of the same concepts Erik brought up and they worked.

 

It's so frustrating because you're absolutely right, sometimes Daboll designs and calls great plays.  But other times - boy howdy.

That actually put to words my own confusion with him...I hadn't given it much thought beyond the occasional head-scratcher of a play call, mostly due to the fact that I'm too focused on the actual play of our OL or WR, or on watching Allen at all times. But specific to the decoy play, I see what you're saying, and it's absolutely true. Daboll may in fact be playing into his schemes too much, and we're all left sitting here saying "Inconceivable!" The issue becomes this combination of overly-layered play calls with Allen's lack of NFL level exposure and understanding of the game.

 

But it is maddening, because sometimes it works, and when it does, it works well. The one thing I also wonder whether Allen would benefit from would be pre-snap motions helping him to read and setup defenses at times. Just by virtue of seeing the Pats do this every season, manipulating defenses pre-snap can equally help counter pressures and blitzes as much as identifying protections and calling assignments can. I've seen it employed a few times so far, but dare I say even just motioning backs out of the backfield a couple times could go a long way. Even though we need them for protecting Allen...

 

I need to read that article still - Erik always has great insight to x's and o's that I appreciate reading more than most 99% of sports media like ESPN.

[ghostwriter]

I think an All Pro center is the quickest thing that can turn this offense around. We need a mean SOB anchoring that line, losing Eric Wood killed us. Unless AJ Green or Julio Jones is available, I want the meanest center or LG we can find with that 1st pick.

[CaptnCoke11]

14 hours ago, QB Bills said:

Ughhh.. Shut up dilfer. Good is good.

 

If Allen flames out then he just wasn't good enough. 

Ehh I’ll take his word.. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

7 hours ago, H2o said:

This is the same guy who said David Fales had "all the tools" and is a "franchise QB"..... Yeah, Trent Dilfer. 

Same guy we posted quotes from all offseason praising Allen.