Coach Tuesday Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Ah, OK, thanks for clarifying. I think I get you now. For me, I would say it's a potential example of the "sunk costs fallacy". McBeane had a plan involving clearing cap, pruning dead wood off the roster, and building around the key pieces of a LT, QB, MLB, and shutdown corner. They made playoffs by a fluke last year with a talent-depleted roster, and this year's plan was to stick it out through some growing pains with the new pieces and add talent next year. I think we all agree that was the plan? Your argument is, let them finish their plan, add talent next year in draft and FA, see where that goes, and then judge. We have sunk a lot of investment in these guys and their plan, right? My point (and this isn't what I'm arguing for, just my guess at what might happen) is that the above is predicated on the display of an appropriate level of football competence given the talent we have. The coaches need to be able to protect the investment in their key-piece QB one way or the other. They need to craft play designs that work with the talent we have and make situationally appropriate playcalls. And they need to show the ability to get the most out of the team on a consistent basis. If they do, fine, stay the course, steady as she goes or as you say, give them a "chance to execute" If they don't, it's just like any business investment where businessmen evaluate the performance of an asset and say "yeah, we will lose our sunk costs, but we don't see evidence that this investment is in the right hands to be turned around" It's saying "you don't get a chance to execute 'cuz we don't see enough evidence that you can execute." Thank you. This is where I'm at. There are serious red flags. Put them on notice (I'm sure that has happened), give them a chance to fix it, and if the problems persist, cut bait. It's not about losing - it's about how they're losing, and how they're failing to protect their investment at QB. 1
bills11 Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 Culture is definitely important ...if you have a winning culture things fall in to place as far of performance on the field. But there has to be a balance you can have the best culture but if you don't have talented players your team won't win. And at times I'm confused about how they judge players ...Kelvin Benjamin is deemed a process guy since they traded for him yet he's arrogant abd other things that seemingly don't fit the culture they want to build yet they jettisoned more talented players because they didn't fit their vision .
PlayoffsPlease Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 1 hour ago, joesixpack said: And you'll be able to cast that judgement before it even has a chance to come to fruition? You should use your websters to look up the word "if". If you learn that word, the other post will come to fruition for you today. 4 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said: To be fair, when your starting quarterbacks in both units (MLB is considered the QB of the defense) are rookies, you can consider yourself young. And I’d be curious to know how many teams have more combined first and second year players on their 53-man rosters. Because of the salary cap, and because of the advantages of rookie contracts most teams have just as many rookie contract players as the bills. The age distribution in the NFL is very narrow. Because of the cap and rookie contracts no teams are old and no teams are young. Because of dead cap, the Bills roster is cheap, not young. Silly but simple example. The bears could fit in Khalil Mack. the Bills could fit in Star L. 3 hours ago, Philo Beddoe said: They believe they have their QB, MLB, LT, CB1 in place as well as a few other talented young players contributing (for example Milano, Johnson, Phillips). A lot of talent is still needed, so yes there will be significant turnover next year. Until then we have to deal with the growing pains of young talent. Dawkins is pretty unproven as the long term answer at LT, as is Allen at QB. There is a real possibility that Edmunds and White are the only current players on the roster four seasons from now. 1 hour ago, oldmanfan said: I know of no successful organizations that do not have a successful culture. When he says culture trumps strategy it means you can have the best plays called, best coaching, etc. but if guys aren't committed to work and improvement it won't mean much. I note some here saying he does not want talent. That is nowhere to be found in his statement. His and Beane's jobs are to bring talent in and mold it into a successful team. But if the talent is not part of a broader success mindset and culture the talent will not be as successful as it should be. Read the bolded part. You have hit on the concept, almost. The point of McDermotts comment is to say his and his staffs coaching (strategy) are just fine. And that the problem lies elsewhere. There is nothing in his press conference to suggest any failures of the current culture are actually his fault (after two full off-seasons to establish said culture). This is all about shifting blame. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 47 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said: Arizona is the worst team in the league right now..by a mile I actually don't agree, but I'm interested in why you say that.
Gray Beard Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 “The Patriot Way” is a culture. Win and then the players buy in. “I don’t want to be the weak link” 1
PlayoffsPlease Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) It seems like a big part of establishing a "winning" culture actually requires winning games, which the team had a good start on last year. Nothing in McDs comments or actions suggests that a "winning" culture is the short term goal. I sincerely think his priority are players buying into a culture of "trusting the process" Players primary goal is to earn personal success and wealth, and they have a precious few short years to achieve this goal. Many players are year to year. It seems to me that if players are not put into a position to succeed personally pretty quickly, they may lose interest in the culture pretty quickly. Maybe this makes these players bad people, I think it just makes them human people that want personal success. I think a good coach needs to make each player feel like they are being put in a good position. Edited October 3, 2018 by PlayoffsPlease 1
TheFunPolice Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 McDermott should call the offensive plays for the next game... How much worse can it get? I know I would immediately be interested!
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 16 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said: It seems like a big part of establishing a "winning" culture actually requires winning games, which the team had a good start on last year. Nothing in McDs comments or actions suggests that a "winning" culture is the short term goal. I sincerely think his priority are players buying into a culture of "trusting the process" Players primary goal is to earn personal success and wealth, and they have a precious few short years to achieve this goal. Many players are year to year. It seems to me that if players are not put into a position to succeed personally pretty quickly, they may lose interest in the culture pretty quickly. Maybe this makes these players bad people, I think it just makes them human people that want personal success. I think a good coach needs to make each player feel like they are being put in a good position. This is a really good point. There are some talented players in the league who love football and would do anything to play football, but there are also many talented players who are playing football as a means to the end of financial security for themselves and their families - and probably most players have elements of both. Which way they slide culturally depends upon context - or as you say, whether or not they feel they're in a position to succeed, either personally, or as part of a successful team. To use an example, consider when we traded a 3rd rounder for Kelvin Benjamin last year. Beane, who knew him in Carolina of course, said all kinds of positive things about him, his effort, his teammates would love him, his coaches would love him, " "When he's covered, he's still open. He'll win the contested balls and he's a very strong competitor." I don't think that matches what we've seen and what McDermott has said about Benjamin recently. Which would imply that Benjamin's "cultural contribution" depended upon the context of the coaching and team around him. In Carolina, while the team was successful, he was all-in. Here, where the offense isn't looking so good, not so much. I think most of the successful coaches do just as you say - make each player feel like he (the coach) is personally invested in fostering that player's success.
FLFan Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 5 hours ago, billsfan_34 said: You have to be kidding me Sean! Strategy is the backbone of football- every week is a game of chess- looks like we are playing checkers. Ive lost my faith in this guy now. In the larger context of building a team, which is what he was talking about, building a winning culture is the most important thing in my view, while many seem to disagree. Week to to week strategy of how to beat a particular team, in a given week, is not what he was talking about. That's is actually tactical, not strategic, in the larger context. 2 2
billsfan_34 Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 7 minutes ago, FLFan said: In the larger context of building a team, which is what he was talking about, building a winning culture is the most important thing in my view, while many seem to disagree. Week to to week strategy of how to beat a particular team, in a given week, is not what he was talking about. That's is actually tactical, not strategic, in the larger context. Great point
PlayoffsPlease Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: This is a really good point. There are some talented players in the league who love football and would do anything to play football, but there are also many talented players who are playing football as a means to the end of financial security for themselves and their families - and probably most players have elements of both. Which way they slide culturally depends upon context - or as you say, whether or not they feel they're in a position to succeed, either personally, or as part of a successful team. To use an example, consider when we traded a 3rd rounder for Kelvin Benjamin last year. Beane, who knew him in Carolina of course, said all kinds of positive things about him, his effort, his teammates would love him, his coaches would love him, " "When he's covered, he's still open. He'll win the contested balls and he's a very strong competitor." I don't think that matches what we've seen and what McDermott has said about Benjamin recently. Which would imply that Benjamin's "cultural contribution" depended upon the context of the coaching and team around him. In Carolina, while the team was successful, he was all-in. Here, where the offense isn't looking so good, not so much. I think most of the successful coaches do just as you say - make each player feel like he (the coach) is personally invested in fostering that player's success. Personally, I hear "Culture Trumps Strategy" as being opposite of that.
Sky Diver Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 It’s tough to convince the video game generation of the importance of culture. The can’t separate Madden from reality. 3
PlayoffsPlease Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 7 minutes ago, FLFan said: In the larger context of building a team, which is what he was talking about, building a winning culture is the most important thing in my view, while many seem to disagree. Week to to week strategy of how to beat a particular team, in a given week, is not what he was talking about. That's is actually tactical, not strategic, in the larger context. The line between tactics and strategy maybe be blurred. But in football, most people would say the game plan is strategy, while play calling and tackling techniques or qb spin to the blindside are tactics. The 2018 Bills team is "built". The roster is complete, the coaching staff is complete. Where the Bills stand today is 1)strategy and 2) execution of that strategy. That really is it. We know Mcd is saying 1)strategy is not the main problem. So we can conclude that the players execution of that strategy is not up to snuff. And by saying "culture" he is providing further insight that the execution is bad because the players are not trying, or not buying into the strategy. 2 minutes ago, Sky Diver said: It’s tough to convince the video game generation of the importance of culture. The can’t separate Madden from reality. I am not trying to be combative, but what can be built by losing in blow outs? Some weird concept of sticking together through adversity until the inevitable winning that results from trusting the process occurs? I am pretty sure "Winning culture" is a consequence of winning, not a reason losing teams begin winning. Darth Vader became the head coach of the Patriots in 2000. They won the conference championships in 2001, 2003 and 2004. Did the "winning culture happen in one year" or did the Patriots have better coaching strategy and talent in 2001 than their opponents? 2
billsfan89 Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 6 hours ago, Philo Beddoe said: I don't believe he is saying strategy isn't important, just that a good culture - a WINNING culture - can overcome strategy flaws or personnel differences within a game. Take a look at the Pats*...plug in player X, Y, Z who may not be the most talented and they still roll along because they have had a sustained system and winning culture. That's where McDermott wants the Bills to be, IMO. The context of the quote is odd too. The question seemed to be asking what is your strategy in figuring out the roster and depth chart. And in that respect culture is huge and important. This isn't and X's and O's question more of a philsophy question. In that context the quote makes more sense. 1
PlayoffsPlease Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, billsfan89 said: The context of the quote is odd too. The question seemed to be asking what is your strategy in figuring out the roster and depth chart. And in that respect culture is huge and important. This isn't and X's and O's question more of a philsophy question. In that context the quote makes more sense. Real question. When is the roster and culture built? year round. During the offseason, or during the season? Personally i think roster building is pretty much done in august, and the personalities that are on your team them collectively define the culture, so I am not sure that sure much of that changes during the season. Since we are in week 4, I am hoping our coaches can come up with some better strategy to develop are QB. And maybe more be competitive. Not seeing it so far. It discourages me that in-season our head coach is focused on "process" and "culture" . I want him to be focused on "coaching"
jkeerie Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: The context of the quote is odd too. The question seemed to be asking what is your strategy in figuring out the roster and depth chart. And in that respect culture is huge and important. This isn't and X's and O's question more of a philsophy question. In that context the quote makes more sense. This makes sense. It goes back to "talent plus habits, you've got something." He didn't reference individual players, but it wouldn't surprise me that he was thinking of Benjamin when he said what he said. If part of the strategy is to start Benjamin because he's your number one WR, but KB isn't playing like he's even trying (i.e. he hasn't bought into the culture and hasn't developed the right habits), the strategy will fail. All it takes is one person to screw things up. Didn't McDermott say that in one of the Bills Imbedded episodes? If KB doesn't start on Sunday, we will understand more of what McD meant. Edited October 3, 2018 by jkeerie
NoSaint Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 Unless his culture is “we put great players in a position to succeed” it’s a terrible quote. God awful. 1
bobobonators Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 In sports, winning above all else. You cant build sustainable culture without winning. Its a fact. All efforts need to be focused on winning; not building a choir group on Sundays. How do you build winners: 1. Talent, talent, talent; 2. Coaching; 3. Shared Vision/strategy. Culture is nothing without talent, not the other way around. It applies to all walks of life. You can be the most honorable person in the world, but at the end of the day you need talent to succeed in an ultra-competitive field. Someone who is below average at math can never be a mathematician, no matter what their study habits are. Someone who is not good in the sciences will never make it through medical school. Someone who cant physically pass an FBI pt test cant be an agent no matter how honorable that person really is. Most importantly, someone who cant block a 300lb DT (our entire Oline); someone who cant run fast and catch a football (our entire WR group), will never consistently win in the NFL bc they lack the talent to do so no matter what culture theyre entrenched in. Rant over. LAMP 1 2
NoSaint Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 37 minutes ago, Sky Diver said: It’s tough to convince the video game generation of the importance of culture. The can’t separate Madden from reality. The problem is the injury free loves to play football and is more talented guy is the most expensive player. We all have a salary cap. So either you take risks on personality, on injury or roll with a less talented player. There’s a balance to be had and talent has to be weighted most heavily. 2 minutes ago, bobobonators said: In sports, winning above all else. You cant build sustainable culture without winning. Its a fact. All efforts need to be focused on winning; not building a choir group on Sundays. How do you build winners: 1. Talent, talent, talent; 2. Coaching; 3. Shared Vision/strategy. Culture is nothing without talent, not the other way around. It applies to all walks of life. You can be the most honorable person in the world, but at the end of the day you need talent to succeed in an ultra-competitive field. Someone who is below average at math can never be a mathematician, no matter what their study habits are. Someone who is not good in the sciences will never make it through medical school. Someone who cant physically pass an FBI pt test cant be an agent no matter how honorable that person really is. Most importantly, someone who cant block a 300lb DT (our entire Oline); someone who cant run fast and catch a football (our entire WR group), will never consistently win in the NFL bc they lack the talent to do so no matter what culture theyre entrenched in. Rant over. LAMP Nailed it. The rest all matters but talent is by far the biggest.
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