Julio Hopkins Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: What are you trying to say about him being the anti- McD? You think McVay hasn't established a culture for his team? I highly doubt that. As for fans worrying about their cap situation and lack of picks, the've gone all in on winning this year or next year. Then their team will get broken up, when they have to pay Goff and others. And we'll see what happens to them then. I liked Sammy, wish he were still here. But not at 15 million a year. He's done nothing to support that. And with the Chiefs in 4 games so far he has 14 catches for 176 yards and 1 TD. That's just not enough production to merit the huge contract. No, I think McVay understands how to build a winning team. While McDermott's plan is essentially replace the previous regime's guys with my own guys. You can keep preaching culture, but forgive me if I call bull **** when guys like Kelvin Benjamin are on the roster. That's fine if you don't think Sammy is worth his contract, I'm gonna go with Andy Reid. We'll see what happens in two years, I personally believe McDermott will be gone after the 2020 season. That said, I'm interested in what McVay/Snead do when Goff's contract is up.
Cripple Creek Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 9 hours ago, NoSaint said: Bright side: I think we might’ve given him a big free agent deal if we didn’t trade for him. He easily could’ve been a FA target next year but I think we let him walk now You think? I hope that decision was made as Benjamin bitched out of multiple games.
Bing Bong Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 9 hours ago, NoSaint said: A solid corner with a 2 year 1.8m contract is legit the type of things dreams should be made of for an nfl team. Instead, we almost paid Gaines/vontae a combined 2 year 6.8m toss that $5m at a line upgrade, and the dareus/Starr savings at a WR (which also would’ve avoided the Coleman dead money) the ripples are always interesting to contemplate You didn't know any cap screw ups are all Whaley's fault huh? A non-process GM is the worst cap management GM you can ask for. 1
zonabb Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 This is the week I officially am throwing in the towel on McD. Gave him the benefit of the doubt for a season plus. I am a huge believer in good people and building around intelligence but I am laughing at this statement for its idiocy and ignorance. I was willing to put up with the monotone pressers because I don't care how he responds to their questions because as far as I am concerned they are owned nothing and neither are we. When was the last time we had a an open-questions weekly press conference from a private business in WNY other than the Bills? But watching this team's bad football (execution), bad scheme and coaching, and bad talent, I can honestly say they've lost me. What he is saying when he says "culture" is about people and talent. I agree wholeheartedly that you don't fill your team with idiots and a-holes who put themselves before the team. But as a coach and leader, you should be able to deal with a few wayward and talented souls as long as you're a good leader and people either respect or follow you. And it appears to me their aversion to non-process guys has lead them to believe, falsely, that they ca win with culture alone, and that is the dumbest thing I've heard a coach stammer here in a long time. He is right about one thing, his strategy as a coach seems to take a backseat to all else. This is some bad talent playing a bad scheme on offense. It's the least progressive and creative football in the league. And Allen unfortunately is down with the ship for me too. Like the kid but all the culture in the world won't make this year a learning opportunity for him because he does not have the talent around him to actually learn and improve. And I think in all honesty, losing Eric Wood is the biggest loss for Allen's development. Titans 27-7 5 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Plenty of good coaches only pick players who fit their scheme. Belichick, for instance. Ah. But are you talking Belichick*** now, or Belichick*** when he took over Carroll's 8-8 Patriots and led them to 5-11 his first year? I think if you cared to look carefully at the roster of the Pats back in those years and how they played, you'll find that Belichick indeed changed his scheme to fit the young players he had. All the pruning he did was of older guys. If he brought in new guys, sure, they fit his scheme. 2 decades later sure, he picks players who fit his scheme. Why shouldn't he? That's the luxury you earn through 2 decades of success, where FA want to come to you and play for a proven winner. A more persuasive analogy would be to look at what coaches and GMs who have recently turned teams around have done. Jaguars for example, or if that one is too painful, Rams or Eagles.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 11 hours ago, NoSaint said: Heck, Sammy would still be in his option year, just like benjamin. So a little more there as Sammy was top 10 in the draft, but dareus instead of starr would’ve saved substantially. We would have more cap space I believe, without a formal double check. Don’t make the Sammy trade, and you likely don’t do the Darby trade - which again gives us a better player and cheap. Wed be down a 2nd round pick overall but have more cap and more talent. Could use a different pick for the allen trade and spend the cap space on a good vet to replace the missing draft pick (or have picked mahomes) I accept there are differing opinions on some of these guys but this narrative floating around that there was absolutely no option for beane to run a different course irks me. Bright side: I think we might’ve given him a big free agent deal if we didn’t trade for him. He easily could’ve been a FA target next year but I think we let him walk now Sammy would be more expensive than Benjamin - his option was $13M as I recall. So $4.5M difference - huh, the dead money on Coleman knocks that down to a wash. But overall, your point is sound. It's not that Sammy was "too expensive", objectively; we could have picked up his option, which might only have made him more attractive in a trade (see Benjamin, Kelvin). But let's say the objective talent e v a l was he wasn't a fit here. That's not a problem as a one-player e v a l. The problem is that we let walk or traded away substantial WR talent, and totally failed to adequately replace it. I don't think that was the plan. I think that McDermott and Beane felt that Boldin, Matthews, Thompson, then Holmes, Benjamin >= Watkins, Woods, Goodwin There are several points here: 1) questions about the current staff's ability to accurately assess offensive talent, as well as a player's mental state/commitment to the team & game (Boldin, Davis etc) 2) Benjamin came in to rave reviews from Beane about how the coaches and teammates would love him, his attitude, his work ethic. Either this is a case of inability to accurately assess a guy or............context matters, and it's sort of futile to try to change a culture by bringing in "right-minded process guys". Just maybe, when you move "right minded process guys" into a situation where they don't feel their team has a fighting chance to win, they check out. 2
Straight Hucklebuck Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) On 10/4/2018 at 5:23 AM, PIZ said: Anyone in management should understand this quote. You cannot have a successful strategy if your team members don't buy into your culture. It never worked for my teams and I've been doing it for 18 years. One bad team member can destroy your culture and in turn, destroy your strategy going forward. My own theory is culture and leadership are overrated. The main goal for everyone is making money. For me to make money I have to show up and get results. You either have it or you don’t. Leadership and culture are overrated. Edited October 5, 2018 by Straight Hucklebuck 2
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 ...at what point do we get beyond all of these labels, concepts, warm 'n fuzzy feel goods, or any other God forsaken distractions and get back to playing football?.....
SoTier Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 23 hours ago, oldmanfan said: McVay built such a great bridge with Sammy they kept him for one year and weren't interested in resigning him. Dareus has like 9 tackles in 4 games this year. Gordon has played one game in NE and that means Belichick has built a bridge? Watch that"bridge" crumble if and when Gordon screws up again. Oh, and Milano? Defensive player of the week two weeks ago. I think a lot of teams would be happy to have him. Finally, cap space. They made a commitment to get out from under contracts that were weighing down the team. Dareus being the prime example. You don't give a huge contract to a guy half assing it through games. Point 1: McVay tried to re-sign Watkins but KC offered more. Point 2: One good game against a flat team doesn't make a career. Milano is nothing special, and I'll stand by my statement that he might not make the rosters of many NFL teams. Point 3: The poster I questioned claimed that Pegula insisted on cutting cap commitments by the end of 2018. I don't believe that's true in any form. As I said, maybe Pegula wanted them to cut the amount the Bills actually spent on player salaries in 2018 and going forward, but that's not the same thing as "fixing the cap situation", whatever that means. 20 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Ah. But are you talking Belichick*** now, or Belichick*** when he took over Carroll's 8-8 Patriots and led them to 5-11 his first year? I think if you cared to look carefully at the roster of the Pats back in those years and how they played, you'll find that Belichick indeed changed his scheme to fit the young players he had. All the pruning he did was of older guys. If he brought in new guys, sure, they fit his scheme. 2 decades later sure, he picks players who fit his scheme. Why shouldn't he? That's the luxury you earn through 2 decades of success, where FA want to come to you and play for a proven winner. A more persuasive analogy would be to look at what coaches and GMs who have recently turned teams around have done. Jaguars for example, or if that one is too painful, Rams or Eagles. , Except that the Jags, Rams and Eagles new HCs all kept their teams' best players and built around them, so that would be the opposite of McDermott and Beane. Hell, Marrone even replaced Bortles as his starting QB during 2017 preseason IIRC in order to put him on notice to get his act together -- and he did. And Dareus doesn't seem to have any trouble fitting into the Jags' "culture".
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 4:07 AM, Ol Dirty B said: ScottLaw do we ignore those? Yes. Yes we do.
PlayoffsPlease Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 I have enjoyed this thread but now am channeling my inner Al Davis and merging culture and strategy into a single concept. jus Win Baby 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 23 minutes ago, SoTier said: Except that the Jags, Rams and Eagles new HCs all kept their teams' best players and built around them, so that would be the opposite of McDermott and Beane. Hell, Marrone even replaced Bortles as his starting QB during 2017 preseason IIRC in order to put him on notice to get his act together -- and he did. And Dareus doesn't seem to have any trouble fitting into the Jags' "culture". Yes, exactly. That's my point to the contention I was responding to, that all great coaches choose players to fit their scheme.
GreatComeback Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Yes, exactly. That's my point to the contention I was responding to, that all great coaches choose players to fit their scheme. People need to give Beane and McDermott some time. It’s unfair to judge them so soon. Let’s see what happens on year 3 after they have the chance to spend $100 million in Free Agency.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 6:14 AM, oldmanfan said: McVay built such a great bridge with Sammy they kept him for one year and weren't interested in resigning him. Dareus has like 9 tackles in 4 games this year. Gordon has played one game in NE and that means Belichick has built a bridge? Watch that"bridge" crumble if and when Gordon screws up again. Oh, and Milano? Defensive player of the week two weeks ago. I think a lot of teams would be happy to have him. Finally, cap space. They made a commitment to get out from under contracts that were weighing down the team. Dareus being the prime example. You don't give a huge contract to a guy half assing it through games. You do realize that NTs don't prove their value by making tackles, right? (the actual number is 17 I think) I think the fair question raised is "why was MD half-assing it through games here, while right now he's playing 65% of the snaps on one of the best defenses in the NFL?" I believe that the situation with McDermott had likely deteriorated enough that they decided their best alternative to move him, but again, that begs the question "why"? Culture is not this fixed and immutable structure that you plonk players into. The players make the culture and the players change in response to it. The same guy who is rave reviews for his hard work and effort in Situation 1 can turn to dross in Situation 2. Go reread what Beane had to say about Benjamin when we brought him in, and compare to what we see now. 2
ProcessTruster Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 On 10/3/2018 at 11:58 AM, Soda Popinski said: It's pretty evident we can't win with the lack of talent on this roster. I'm going t wait and see what he and Beane do this offseason. If they get linemen and wrs, improve the defense and get rid of Peterman in favor of an actual QB at backup them I'm still trusting the process. But the process better start protecting the QB better and catching the ball. agree. but the Oline and WRs this year will pretty much be what they are. once the $50M dead cap anvil is taken off their backs, you'll see the right players come on board next year, plus 10 draft picks. Ralph, Doug W and Rex did a good job of bringing this franchise completely to its knees. T-T-P.
PromoTheRobot Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 16 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...at what point do we get beyond all of these labels, concepts, warm 'n fuzzy feel goods, or any other God forsaken distractions and get back to playing football?..... 2019 hopefully. 1
ProcessTruster Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 16 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: ...at what point do we get beyond all of these labels, concepts, warm 'n fuzzy feel goods, or any other God forsaken distractions and get back to playing football?..... 2019. this year is just a big long training and tryout camp. $50m in dead cap space will do that 1
oldmanfan Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 59 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: You do realize that NTs don't prove their value by making tackles, right? (the actual number is 17 I think) I think the fair question raised is "why was MD half-assing it through games here, while right now he's playing 65% of the snaps on one of the best defenses in the NFL?" I believe that the situation with McDermott had likely deteriorated enough that they decided their best alternative to move him, but again, that begs the question "why"? Culture is not this fixed and immutable structure that you plonk players into. The players make the culture and the players change in response to it. The same guy who is rave reviews for his hard work and effort in Situation 1 can turn to dross in Situation 2. Go reread what Beane had to say about Benjamin when we brought him in, and compare to what we see now. Leaders define the culture. Employees decide to embrace the culture or not. Those who don't leave. Those who do stay. They tried to get Dareus on board. From Marrone through McD ever coach did, and he kept fighting it. Maybe Coughlin and Marrone (on his second tour of duty with Dareus) finally got it through his head that you either buy in and straighten up or your career is over.
GreatComeback Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: You do realize that NTs don't prove their value by making tackles, right? (the actual number is 17 I think) I think the fair question raised is "why was MD half-assing it through games here, while right now he's playing 65% of the snaps on one of the best defenses in the NFL?" I believe that the situation with McDermott had likely deteriorated enough that they decided their best alternative to move him, but again, that begs the question "why"? Culture is not this fixed and immutable structure that you plonk players into. The players make the culture and the players change in response to it. The same guy who is rave reviews for his hard work and effort in Situation 1 can turn to dross in Situation 2. Go reread what Beane had to say about Benjamin when we brought him in, and compare to what we see now. From all reports and from trusted players like Eric Wood and Kyle Williams there is a good culture in place. Moving on from Marcel and Sammy were certainly the right moves for many reasons. The Bills signed Marcel when he was a top DT and his play deteriorated since 2015. By the way your argument about him doesn’t hold value either. For his contract, he should be playing more than 65% of the snaps. He’s just not worth his deal. Many fans have no clue what it takes to build a successful NFL franchise. I think it’s time to give these guys a break. 1 hour ago, ProcessTruster said: agree. but the Oline and WRs this year will pretty much be what they are. once the $50M dead cap anvil is taken off their backs, you'll see the right players come on board next year, plus 10 draft picks. Ralph, Doug W and Rex did a good job of bringing this franchise completely to its knees. T-T-P. I agree with you. The second guessing of the Bills fan base is off the charts
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