jkeerie Posted October 4, 2018 Posted October 4, 2018 48 minutes ago, NewDayBills said: Ive had a WONDERFUL day today, but good grief, I have to be negative here for a second unfortunately. You trade a THIRD for Kelvin Benjamin YOUR GUY and even he doesn't buy in! Your own dude, c'mon man, that's alarming. What culture change? Seriously? Zay Jones had to tell him where to LINE UP. Culture change? hahahahahahaha Glad you had a great day today! It's so nice to see the sun for a change. I wouldn't be surprised if McD wasn't thinking about KB and his lack of effort, etc when he made the comment he made yesterday. I think by and large we are mostly arguing semantics with respect to culture, strategy, etc. I understand the gentleman talking about the culture from his perspective in healthcare because I was in healthcare and it was amazing the differences in "cultures" (however you want to define it) between one hospital system and the next. I get what he's saying. I think we can all agree that you need "football" people at the top of your organization. We really didn't have that when Russ Brandon (whose sins we are still paying for) was in charge. I think we have that now with Beane and McD. Those folks have to define a direction for the team...a culture, values, emphasis, strategy etc...throw in whatever terms you would like. Most importantly...or at least of equal importance to anything else...is TALENT. We had talented players (Sammy, Dareus, etc) but a collection of talented players isn't enough... Especially if you are overpaying or will soon overpay for their services...because we have the salary cap in football. I think, irrespective of culture, salary and affordability were key in the decisions to oust Sammy and Dareus in particular. So the football people in charge made a decision on an approach that for the time being will have us devoid of talent, but be healthier in the long run by freeing up cap space for the future. Talent...particularly offensively...will come next year. We hope. Someone earlier mentioned that we are finally rebuilding. This is true. How often have so many on this board said we need to "blow it up and start over." So that's what we did. Prior seasons we tried to patch things together by adding a player here, a player there, a coach here, a coach there...but never really building a cohesive team. We as fans are in different places with respect to whether we trust the current "football people" to make the right decisions in the future regarding the rebuild, player acquisition, etc...based on what we've seen to date. I get that. I think we all get that. We see teams apparently turn-it-around (worst to first) in a single season and wonder why it doesn't work that way in Buffalo. I don't think any of the turnarounds have really been in a single season. In the Rams case, for example, the talent on that team had been acquired over years...but the key piece was McVay. With that example...you see how important "scheme" and game planning is to winning. It all works together...and I think in order to have sustained success...there's something that needs to be at the basis of it...and we're arguing over what to call it. 1
billsfan89 Posted October 4, 2018 Posted October 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, Julio Hopkins said: Sammy, Cordy, and Dareus do add to a winning effort. Interestingly enough, all three teams are they play for are winning. Lotulelei is a significantly less impactful player than Dareus and it shows, same can be said for the replacements for Sammy and Cordy. I love the money argument people go with while we have one of the weakest rosters in the NFL. Especially considering guys like Robert Woods, "we can't pay for a number 2 receiver!" You are missing the argument here. No one is disputing that Sammy, Cordy, and Dareus aren't talented players and that they would help the Bills out currently. The argument is that Cordy was coming off of 2 straight injury riddled seasons and on a massive contract the Bills got a bump up in draft positioning equal to a mid second round pick. They got value and cleared salary cap space for a player who they were uncertain would play often the same thing can be said for Sammy. Dareus wasn't producing to the level of his massive contract and was causing locker room issues the Bills dumped him and took the hit getting rid of a massive deal to free up future cap space. But once again and here is the big kicker what is the Bills record if they are paying those players 40 million dollar of 2018 and 2019 cap? Are you really thinking it was a bad idea to get draft picks and free up space because the Bills might lose 2-3 more games in a season where they were never going to win more than 7 or 8 games anyway? What's the goal to have the cap space and assets to acquire to build around a young QB on a rookie contract or to win 2-3 more games in the short term? Now just because McBeane has the right philsophy doesn't mean they will execute. They already flubbed the Star signing for example but you don't get into the position to spend around a cheap QB if you hold onto players with big injury histories and contracts that will only look worse as time goes on.
vincec Posted October 4, 2018 Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, NewDayBills said: I do like Lotulelei, not a big fan of Murphy though, would have liked to get a WR with that money. Who is the LDE then? Lawson or Yarbrough?
ghostwriter Posted October 4, 2018 Posted October 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, vincec said: Who is the LDE then? Lawson or Yarbrough? It's a rebuild, either way there'd be a hole, it's just a matter of where, I guess. McDermott is supposed to be a defensive guru, shouldn't need All-Pros at every position to field a good defense.
billsfan89 Posted October 4, 2018 Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, NewDayBills said: I think Lotulelei's contract is fair, I may be in the minority there but 10m per year for high end run stuffer is palatable. Were there better options? Perhaps, but I saw Damon Harrison get a similar contract so I know what Star got is not as over the top as fans make it out to be. Should have overpaid John Brown to come here with Murphy's money. The thing is I don't see Star as being an elite run stuffer. He is good in that role but not elite like Snacks. At least from what I saw/see and what the word on him was in Carolina. I think Star at 7-8 million AAV is an overpay you could live with but his cap number next year is 11.5 million, which is horrendous (His number this season is 6.5 which explains the bump despite AAV.) Johnathan Hankins comes to mind as a player the team could have signed for sub 3 million and probably would have done a job not too far off from what Star has produced. They then would have had even more cap space next year and maybe could have paid some more to get a WR.
dickleyjones Posted October 4, 2018 Posted October 4, 2018 3 hours ago, Wroughting said: So you're saying that strategy trumps culture, which is what exactly? no i'm saying that culture is a part of strategy. there is no trumping involved.
NoSaint Posted October 4, 2018 Posted October 4, 2018 58 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: The thing is I don't see Star as being an elite run stuffer. He is good in that role but not elite like Snacks. At least from what I saw/see and what the word on him was in Carolina. I think Star at 7-8 million AAV is an overpay you could live with but his cap number next year is 11.5 million, which is horrendous (His number this season is 6.5 which explains the bump despite AAV.) Johnathan Hankins comes to mind as a player the team could have signed for sub 3 million and probably would have done a job not too far off from what Star has produced. They then would have had even more cap space next year and maybe could have paid some more to get a WR. And frankly even if paying dareus like a pass rusher but he’s underperforming and he’s heavy and just a run stuffer... the dead money plus star is a fortune compared to just keeping an underachiever who is still ok, just not special 1 1
billsfan89 Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, NoSaint said: And frankly even if paying dareus like a pass rusher but he’s underperforming and he’s heavy and just a run stuffer... the dead money plus star is a fortune compared to just keeping an underachiever who is still ok, just not special The only issue with Dareus that is a X-factor is was he an issue with the coaches and in the locker room? Now that doesn't excuse the massive overpay for Star to do the same role but the off-field issues with Dareus make the trade a bit more reasonable as it dumped a lot of salary in 2019 and it got rid of a malcontent. But I feel like the production Star is providing while not useless is something that could have been attained for much cheaper. Edited October 5, 2018 by billsfan89
NoSaint Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 Right, I get that but if we dump the savings straight into the cheaper option- suddenly the cap hit is the same as keeping dareus and frankly even if he’s a pain to manage he’s better than the $3m guy even on his worst days and comes with upside. we decided rather than managing the situation, to simultaneously shed talent and increase spending. Dareus better have been openly mocking coaches in meetings for that to be the answer.
ghostwriter Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, billsfan89 said: The thing is I don't see Star as being an elite run stuffer. He is good in that role but not elite like Snacks. At least from what I saw/see and what the word on him was in Carolina. I think Star at 7-8 million AAV is an overpay you could live with but his cap number next year is 11.5 million, which is horrendous (His number this season is 6.5 which explains the bump despite AAV.) Johnathan Hankins comes to mind as a player the team could have signed for sub 3 million and probably would have done a job not too far off from what Star has produced. They then would have had even more cap space next year and maybe could have paid some more to get a WR. You're absolutely free to your opinion, we'll just have to politely, civilly and respectfully disagree. Lotulelei has been excellent for Kyle Williams and Tre Edmunds. This guy is worth it IMO. He will be a veteran leader in that locker room when Kyle is gone and an excellent player next to Harrison Phillips. Once Kyle is gone we won't have much money at all tied up at DT and unlike Kelvin Benjamin, Star has bought into the process. Edited October 5, 2018 by NewDayBills 1
billsfan89 Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 7 minutes ago, NewDayBills said: You're absolutely free to your opinion, we'll just have to politely, civilly and respectfully disagree. Lotulelei has been excellent for Kyle Williams and Tre Edmunds. This guy is worth it IMO. He will be a veteran leader in that locker room when Kyle is gone and an excellent player next to Philip Harrison. Once Kyle is gone we won't have much money at all tied up at DT and unlike Kelvin Benjamin, Star has bought into the process. I hope you are right, I think Star is productive and maybe there is more to his game than meets the eye but I just don't see the Bills rushing defense as being dominant nor do I see Star being the center of gravity to the defense like a guy like Snacks is. But I do think he is productive and I think people calling Star a complete waste are way off. I think our assessment of his value is just different.
ghostwriter Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 1 minute ago, billsfan89 said: I hope you are right, I think Star is productive and maybe there is more to his game than meets the eye but I just don't see the Bills rushing defense as being dominant nor do I see Star being the center of gravity to the defense like a guy like Snacks is. But I do think he is productive and I think people calling Star a complete waste are way off. I think our assessment of his value is just different. The guy is a load, really scary dude IMO. Few plays I noticed him explode into the backfield, he didn't get the sack or tackle but it opened up other guys to make a play. Snacks was a damn good football player, better at run D than Star but not as explosive. I think Star can pass rush better than Snacks ever could, won't be a 10 sack guy but I think he has some ability there.
BringBackOrton Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, NoSaint said: Right, I get that but if we dump the savings straight into the cheaper option- suddenly the cap hit is the same as keeping dareus and frankly even if he’s a pain to manage he’s better than the $3m guy even on his worst days and comes with upside. we decided rather than managing the situation, to simultaneously shed talent and increase spending. Dareus better have been openly mocking coaches in meetings for that to be the answer. I'm not sure McD hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to building a locker room and culture. He hasn't gotten rid of anyone with character concerns without evidence. Sometimes relationships are broken beyond repair. I have no doubt that McD gave Dareus (and Watkins) fair shots. They simply thought themselves too big of stars to be moved. You can second-guess those decisions by coaches at every level. If a coach thinks a player is undermining his team, I have no problem with him jettisoning them even with some short-term pain in the process. Edited October 5, 2018 by BringBackOrton
ghostwriter Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 Just now, BringBackOrton said: I'm not sure McD hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to building a locker room and culture. He hasn't gotten rid of anyone with character concerns without evidence. Sometimes relationships are broken beyond repair. I have no doubt that McD gave Dareus (and Watkins) fair shots. They simply thought themselves too big of stars to be moved. I question some of the moves too, but as a fan, I think they deserve a fairshake. This year does not count, you got a rookie QB, he needs to grow. I need to see how they develop Allen in year 2. If Allen regresses, Beane and McD should be gone. This year absolutely 100% does not matter to me though, I'm not expecting anything, but if they do finish strong, I mean who wouldn't want that?
BringBackOrton Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, NewDayBills said: I question some of the moves too, but as a fan, I think they deserve a fairshake. This year does not count, you got a rookie QB, he needs to grow. I need to see how they develop Allen in year 2. If Allen regresses, Beane and McD should be gone. This year absolutely 100% does not matter to me though, I'm not expecting anything, but if they do finish strong, I mean who wouldn't want that? I have no problem with getting rid of bad, overpaid apples. I DO have a problem with cutting your best WR 4 days before your rookie QB makes his first start. Every move must be judged on its own merits. Some are plain bad decisions. Tons of coaches make bad decisions. Good coaches make more good than bad.
ghostwriter Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 Just now, BringBackOrton said: I have no problem with getting rid of bad, overpaid apples. I DO have a problem with cutting your best WR 4 days before your rookie QB makes his first start. Every move must be judged on its own merits. Some are plain bad decisions. Tons of coaches make bad decisions. Good coaches make more good than bad. Truth, brother. But to me, McDermott got us to the playoffs year 1, he's earned my patience and respect for that. I'm not happy about the bare cupboard on offense, but once again, we'll see what happens. If Allen regresses, no matter what the reason is, fire all of them. You need a QB in this league to have sustainable success, that's my bottom line.
BringBackOrton Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 Just now, NewDayBills said: Truth, brother. But to me, McDermott got us to the playoffs year 1, he's earned my patience and respect for that. I'm not happy about the bare cupboard on offense, but once again, we'll see what happens. If Allen regresses, no matter what the reason is, fire all of them. You need a QB in this league to have sustainable success, that's my bottom line. All I hope is that we are one day saying, "That idiot McDermott should have never done that! He might've cost us our 3rd Super Bowl for what?"
PlayoffsPlease Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 What players on the Bills epitomize the "Culture" we are supposed to be building?
ghostwriter Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 9 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said: What players on the Bills epitomize the "Culture" we are supposed to be building? Allen, Edmunds, Star, Phillips, Kyle Williams, Dion Dawkins, Hyde, Poyer, Milano, Tre White.
Rock-A-Bye Beasley Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, NoSaint said: Right, I get that but if we dump the savings straight into the cheaper option- suddenly the cap hit is the same as keeping dareus and frankly even if he’s a pain to manage he’s better than the $3m guy even on his worst days and comes with upside. we decided rather than managing the situation, to simultaneously shed talent and increase spending. Dareus better have been openly mocking coaches in meetings for that to be the answer. My cousin and I have a running joke that Dareus was traded because during team prayer he was worshipping Satan.
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