dickleyjones Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 10 hours ago, KD in CA said: For anyone who's worked in a complex organization (at least one that functions competently), culture is always part of the strategy. agreed. let the outrage ensue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickleyjones Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, joesixpack said: What’s your plan other than asking people who ask what other people’s plans are what their plan is? plans within plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Did he say ----- 53 individuals come together as 1 cohesive unit? If he did ...... How dare he!!! 4 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said: C'mon guys, this is code for our players suck and we are cleaning up next spring, 100 mill cap space and 10 draft picks baby !! just had to get the non culturalists out. did you mean non cultists out? Asking for a friend 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUFFALOTONE Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 19 hours ago, BillsPride12 said: Yet the Process Trumps all Patriots have had a certain culture for years regardless of the player.... they don’t fit they don’t last long. Only difference is Belichek doesn’t talk about it the players do. That’s how you know it works. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBuff423 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 18 hours ago, CountDorkula said: Can anyone identify a team that has a bad culture, great talent and loses because of it? 49ers for years Oakland for years Cowboys Giants over the last 5 years (Offensive talent, not so much Defensive) Browns.....I mean, duh? Routinely picking in the top 10, if not top 5, getting really talented players but....well, you know the rest There's just a few off the top of my head. Those teams were either Drafting high year in and year out for a while and still couldn't consistently win or like the Cowboys, had talent all over but would struggle to make it into the playoffs because of guys like Dez / R. Gregory, etc. But we only need to look at guys like J. Gordon, M. Kendricks, Ray Rice, etc. and see that if you have more than one of those types of guys and I don't mean criminals necessarily but guys whose personal issues interrupt the team focus, it is nearly impossible to sustain success. Football is so much different than baseball or hockey or the NBA where one player can change the fate of a franchise. That is possibly true of a QB, but as we see you need an Offensive line that can block, WRs / TEs that can catch and a coach who knows how to use all those tools. Culture trumping strategy is not tantamount to good culture can overcome poor talent. IMHO, it's saying that we can have all the talented players in the world, have a great game plan going in, but if you don't have the synergy and focus from every player committed to the game and not at all concerned about their personal "stats" then over the course of a year, the wins won't be there and the failure is virtually guaranteed. Moreover, Sal Capaccio put McD's full statement into context when he added how McD was responding to a question about how to go about replacing players who they cut or trade and I think what he was insinuating was that just because a guy is super talented and might be a great player, doesn't mean getting him and plugging him into a personnel gap will automatically make him successful because his fit within the culture is even *more* important to overall success. 9 hours ago, Mat68 said: As the head coach he personally controls 2 things. The culture and the strategy the team employs. To say they run contradictory is pretty crazy. To me this is one of the worst quotes I have ever heard a coach say. This year needs to turn, and the light needs to be gleaming at the end of the tunnel for him to survive the season. But he didn't say they run contradictory, he said one "trumps" as in when all things are equal, culture edges strategy in terms of team building. They can run concurrently in unison while one takes the primary lead. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) It takes the right culture , talent and coaching to succeed . It is very difficult to get all three at the same time. Changing coaches can mean different systems , need different players. I rather keep the systems simple , man coverage , 4-3 D ,power blocking for OL. jmo Edited October 4, 2018 by ALF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Damn Doug Peterson and the Eagles for NOT blowing it all up and actually winning. Blowing it all up in the name of process, strategy, culture or whatever is BS and lame excuse for not being good at your job. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 11 minutes ago, pop gun said: Damn Doug Peterson and the Eagles for NOT blowing it all up and actually winning. Blowing it all up in the name of process, strategy, culture or whatever is BS and lame excuse for not being good at your job. Did you know 2019 Cap Space 32 Philadelphia Eagles -$20,449,942.00 give it time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 I asked earlier for anyone to name a successful organization of any kind that has not established a set culture. No one has come up with one yet. Not do I suspect they will. Because successful organizations spend a lot of time on defining their culture. I also noted that McD never said that culture and things like talent are mutually exclusive. Yet you have those who just like to bark at the moon saying this must be what he meant. Which of course is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayoffsPlease Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 12 hours ago, billsfan89 said: McD was responding to a question about the depth chart and roster adjustments, so it isn't a matter of him not being focused on coaching but just responding to a question asked to him. Once you hit past the draft (esp with the draft being much later than free agency) you pretty much have the principle portions of your roster is about 95% set. There aren't many June cuts now with the post June 1st designation. The only significant additions to rosters beyond the draft are usually trades (Any good free agent is signed by that point) or the occasional cap casualty. Neither one happens often unless you are the 2017 Bills. The culture is built year long so that is always a (no pun intended) process. Overall I think that the X's and O's and general culture are a big part of in season and off-season decision making so I don't think that him answering a question about the roster means he isn't focused on the X's and O's. Bolded parts comprise a totally fair point. I stand corrected and withdraw my comment about McD's priorities. At this point of the season I consider the question to be a strange question. Once the question was asked though, I still find the answer more than a little curious. In the context of past statements "Culture" seems to be nearly synonymous with "trust the process". Again, in context of past statements and actions, it seems as though McD really is saying that the players buying in to the process and working hard is more important than the strategy of assembling a roster where players complement each other skill wise. If that is what he believes, I think there is legitimate discussion about whether or not that belief is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtbag Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 clapping also trumps strategy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 24 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: Did you know 2019 Cap Space 32 Philadelphia Eagles -$20,449,942.00 give it time Did you know the Eagles were a middling .500 team, made a couple of moves, added a few key pieces and won a Super Bowl. Imagine they did all that without purging their roster of all their good young players. IDK, but I dont think they needed $90m in cap space to get it done, and more so they have a couple of our retreads they did it with and we had a couple of their guys we couldn't get it done with. McBeans team better get better real soon or, IMO they will be looking for work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trogdor Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 17 hours ago, BigBuff423 said: Um, Zay is in his second year with a Rookie QB and a poor Offensive line. Additionally, I didn't realize McD and Beane didn't Draft Tre White, or Dawkins, or Milano or Edmunds (who is growing with every game), or T. Johnson (who is also getting better with each game)..? So, yeah, it's only first and second year players, but they're all showing real signs of promise and um, it's only the first quarter of their second year...? Is that point lost on you? Additionally, Beane wasn't part of the first Draft and yet McD did a pretty solid job all things considered. He helped guide the first Draft with the aforementioned players and acquired real Draft capital for the year when they were going to take their QB AND they got him. Whether Allen becomes the Franchise QB we're all hoping for remains to be seen, but they did get their guy (as best they could with all factors considered). So, no I didn't disprove my own point, you just refuse to acknowledge the other Draft picks they did make that have been good thus far. Beane didn't draft White or Dawkins and Johnson looks like maybe a CB3. Your argument seems to be based around "well they could be good in the future", so how can you possibly get to "pretty good" without any actual results? Why is it all of a sudden that people think a rookie head coach just up and ran the draft last year? Last year was a pretty typical Whaley draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 7 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said: Bolded parts comprise a totally fair point. I stand corrected and withdraw my comment about McD's priorities. At this point of the season I consider the question to be a strange question. Once the question was asked though, I still find the answer more than a little curious. In the context of past statements "Culture" seems to be nearly synonymous with "trust the process". Again, in context of past statements and actions, it seems as though McD really is saying that the players buying in to the process and working hard is more important than the strategy of assembling a roster where players complement each other skill wise. If that is what he believes, I think there is legitimate discussion about whether or not that belief is true. I don't think he's saying that. Some are thinking he is saying that talent and culture are mutually exclusive. He said nothing of the kind. He said culture trumps strategy. Not that strategy is trivial, but that to have a consistently successful team you need to establish a culture wherein football is the priority. Attention to detail, making sure you're watching film, that sort of thing is how I interpret his words. and that ultimately that is necessary to make sure you carry out your strategy to maximum effect. I pointed out earlier, and will do so here, that if you look at successful franchises in different sports you see that having a specific culture and mindset is associated with success. In basketball you look at guys like Jordan and Bird. They were dedicated to a winning culture, worked harder than any other guy on the team at practice, demanded excellence from their teammates. Very successful teams. The Canadiens back in the day under Toe Blake. They had a culture that demanded the same, and they dominated hockey for well over a decade. The Niners with Montana and Rice. Talented guys but dedicated to a culture promulgated by Walsh. There are many examples of this. YOua ctually want talented guys like this that establish a winning culture, not guys who defy a winning culture. McD has a vision of how to build a successful team, and culture is an important part of that. I would argue it is for any organization. Does it mean you ignore talent or strategy? of course not. But if you have a talented person who is disruptive of the culture, ultimately it doesn't help the team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, pop gun said: [1] Did you know the Eagles were a middling .500 team, made a couple of moves, added a few key pieces and won a Super Bowl. Imagine they did all that without purging their roster of all their good young players. [2] IDK, but I dont think they needed $90m in cap space to get it done, and more so they have a couple of our retreads they did it with and we had a couple of their guys we couldn't get it done with. McBeans team better get better real soon or, IMO they will be looking for work. [1] Yes, I do. But now the Iggles have to dump at minimum ~$30 mil just to have rookie cap space of ~$10 Mil. [2] They have the ability to draft and get FA's and $ to do so. Its nice to know and hope they spend wisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayoffsPlease Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 I find this topic to be quite interesting. My personal opinion is that people who are not good at achieving objective results like to find subjective ways to define success. These people also tend to be good at finding excuses on why they can't achieve measurable success. In the NFL objective success is wins and losses. The most important measure of this is the gross numbers of wins and losses. Over time, you can claim some amount of success if the trend line year to year of wins is improving. The Bills current path seems to be a downward trend. The famous , you have to take a step back in order to go forward. This is sometimes true. By the end of the 2019 season, fans should have a pretty good idea if McBeane is taking the Bills forward, or if they are just meandering around grasping at straws. is the Bills go 4-12 this year and 5-11 next year, I personally will not be wanting to hear about how much progress has been made on establishing a culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said: I find this topic to be quite interesting. My personal opinion is that people who are not good at achieving objective results like to find subjective ways to define success. These people also tend to be good at finding excuses on why they can't achieve measurable success. In the NFL objective success is wins and losses. The most important measure of this is the gross numbers of wins and losses. Over time, you can claim some amount of success if the trend line year to year of wins is improving. The Bills current path seems to be a downward trend. The famous , you have to take a step back in order to go forward. This is sometimes true. By the end of the 2019 season, fans should have a pretty good idea if McBeane is taking the Bills forward, or if they are just meandering around grasping at straws. is the Bills go 4-12 this year and 5-11 next year, I personally will not be wanting to hear about how much progress has been made on establishing a culture. Good point. They have a ton of draft picks and the ability to go out and get several FAs with the cap space they cleared. The success or failure of these decisions, as well as ones already made such as Allen, will ultimately determine their fate. They will of course look for talent, but also guys they see as a fit within the organization. From that perspective, is that any different than any HR department in any company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: [1] Yes, I do. But now the Iggles have to dump at minimum ~$30 mil just to have rookie cap space of ~$10 Mil. [2] They have the ability to draft and get FA's and $ to do so. Its nice to know and hope they spend wisely. If the Bills could win one Super Bowl I could care less what their cap implications would be the next year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 minute ago, pop gun said: If the Bills could win one Super Bowl I could care less what their cap implications would be the next year. That's because you're a fan and not the HC or GM. They want to be playing for one, or in contention for one, every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayoffsPlease Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I don't think he's saying that. Some are thinking he is saying that talent and culture are mutually exclusive. He said nothing of the kind. He said culture trumps strategy. Not that strategy is trivial, but that to have a consistently successful team you need to establish a culture wherein football is the priority. Attention to detail, making sure you're watching film, that sort of thing is how I interpret his words. and that ultimately that is necessary to make sure you carry out your strategy to maximum effect. I pointed out earlier, and will do so here, that if you look at successful franchises in different sports you see that having a specific culture and mindset is associated with success. In basketball you look at guys like Jordan and Bird. They were dedicated to a winning culture, worked harder than any other guy on the team at practice, demanded excellence from their teammates. Very successful teams. The Canadiens back in the day under Toe Blake. They had a culture that demanded the same, and they dominated hockey for well over a decade. The Niners with Montana and Rice. Talented guys but dedicated to a culture promulgated by Walsh. There are many examples of this. YOua ctually want talented guys like this that establish a winning culture, not guys who defy a winning culture. McD has a vision of how to build a successful team, and culture is an important part of that. I would argue it is for any organization. Does it mean you ignore talent or strategy? of course not. But if you have a talented person who is disruptive of the culture, ultimately it doesn't help the team. 1) McD said culture is more important than strategy. 2) This means something is more important that strategy 3) at no point did i say or suggest McD trivialized strategy. 4) I put forward my understanding of what he meant by "culture" which I stand by. It means something. Feel free to provide your own explanation of what culture means in the context of what the Bills are doing 5) I stated that roster building strategy involves finding complimentary players. I am going to give an expanded definition of roster building strategy. 5a. Adding players whose skills sets complement each other. examples. The Redskins hogs and John Riggins. perfect complement. Tom Brady and Wes Welker/Julian Edelman perfect compliment. Drew Brees and Jimmy Graham. Perfect compliment. 5b. determining what positions should have the biggest investment in salary cap. past mistakes include having your highest paid player be a DT. 5.c. estimating the values of draft picks compared against each other. for example. Is the #4 overall pick more valuable than two later first round picks. This changes from draft to draft. One strategy is focused more on identifying special players. The alternative strategy means having more numbers of players. 5.d Salary distribution strategy. Am I better off with a super high priced Khalil Mack, supplemented with two rookie salaries, or would I be better off with 3 10 million players on defense. Different strategies. Both could work. 6)McD's plain words say that whatever culture means, it is more important than roster building strategy. I personally disagree. Edited October 4, 2018 by PlayoffsPlease Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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