Owners with Conservative/Defensive Minded Coaches have some SOUL SEARCHING to do.

[Wayne Arnold]

1 minute ago, CookieG said:

 

McDermott hired Beane, not the other way around.

 

That's how the power structure is with these two.

 

And that's why this organization has zero chance of achieving success in the form of championships.

 

The Pegulas gave McDermott 'Belichick Power' before he ever coached his first game. Inexplicable. 

[reddogblitz]

Not buying it. A good HC is a good HC.

 

Marv was a special teams coach for crying out loud and his team had a great offense. Tom Landry was hired with a heavy D pedigree (player/DC for champion Giants) yet now is viewed as one of the greatest offensive minds in football history. Same could be said of Bill Bellyache except for the history part.

 

A good coach on either side of the football HAS to have an intimate knowledge at the other side.

 

Is Pete Carroll an offensive or defensive coach? I have no idea. What about Coach Moron? Tomlin?  They're just good Head Coaches.

 

Defense is not going anywhere.  I've been hearing this offense only stuff for at least 30 years.

Edited October 13, 2018 by reddogblitz

[Logic]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

The game in 2001 and 2011 when those 2 QBs became starters has evolved considerably.  The RTP and PI penalties principally affect how defenses can take on a passing offense. In NE, Belichick didn't need Brady to be much more than efficient those first couple years until he developed. And Newton is a totally different player who actually had some offensive talent around him as a rookie and 2nd year player, especially their OL.  

 

McCoach, like most defensive guys, went defense heavy his first 2 off-season and now the offense stinks. He has no one to blame but himself for going the opposite way to success.  

 

I'll be happy to have this discussion when offensive juggernauts start winning championships left and right. 

The Eagles won the Super Bowl last year, yes. They also had a great defense.

Like I said, when these offensive juggernauts start winning games in January, we can talk. We've seen offensive flavor-of-the-week teams come and go over the years, and it's always the same story: they tear through the league in the regular season, then come playoff time, a quality defensive team stops them in their tracks. It happened to the Rams last year. It happened to the Kelly Bills, oh, ya know, four Super Bowls in a row.

Also, hiring an offensive minded head coach is not an automatic guarantee of success. How is Frank Reich's team doing right now? Adam Gase? Kyle Shanahan?

Aside from the logical fallacy of assuming that hiring an offensive minded head coach is the only way to go in today's NFL, there's also this: The Bills DID bring in an innovative, fresh-from-the-college-ranks and from Belichick's coaching staff, modern offense-calling coordinator. His name is Brian Daboll. Is he the HEAD coach? No. Does that matter?

The whole idea that the only way to have success in today's NFL is to hire an offensive guru as a head coach is nonsense to me. A good coach is a good coach, period. It doesn't matter what his background is.



 

1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

And that's why this organization has zero chance of achieving success in the form of championships.

 

The Pegulas gave McDermott 'Belichick Power' before he ever coached his first game. Inexplicable. 

You were much more fun as Johnny Flynn.

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

I'll be happy to have this discussion when offensive juggernauts start winning championships left and right. 

The Eagles won the Super Bowl last year, yes. They also had a great defense.

Like I said, when these offensive juggernauts start winning games in January, we can talk. We've seen offensive flavor-of-the-week teams come and go over the years, and it's always the same story: they tear through the league in the regular season, then come playoff time, a quality defensive team stops them in their tracks. It happened to the Rams last year. It happened to the Kelly Bills, oh, ya know, four Super Bowls in a row.

Also, hiring an offensive minded head coach is not an automatic guarantee of success. How is Frank Reich's team doing right now? Adam Gase? Kyle Shanahan?

Aside from the logical fallacy of assuming that hiring an offensive minded head coach is the only way to go in today's NFL, there's also this: The Bills DID bring in an innovative, fresh-from-the-college-ranks and from Belichick's coaching staff, modern offense-calling coordinator. His name is Brian Daboll. Is he the HEAD coach? No. Does that matter?

The whole idea that the only way to have success in today's NFL is to hire an offensive guru as a head coach is nonsense to me. A good coach is a good coach, period. It doesn't matter what his background is.

 

We're talking past each other. I never said there are "guarantees" to hiring an offensive type for a HC, only pointed out that strategically, rebuilds where defense is prioritized over offense is not going to work or will take much longer for the team to become successful.  And who is declaring success as winning a SB? I prefer the qualification as making the playoffs, of which only 12 teams can each season.  Those teams by seed are identified with their offensive yards gained and defensive yards allowed in parentheses.  Their playoff record is also provided. 

 

6. ATL (8, 9) 1-1    BUF (29, 26) 0-1

5. CAR (19, 7) 0-1 TEN (23, 13) 1-1

4. NO (2, 17) 1-1     KC (5, 28) 0-1

3.  LAR (10, 19) 0-1 JAX (6, 2) 2-1

2. MIN (11, 1) 1-1  NE (1, 29) 2-1

1. PHI (7, 3) 3-0     PIT (3, 5) 0-1

 

Nine of the top 11 offenses in yards gained advanced to the playoffs last year and won 10 combined playoff games.  That's not to say they didn't have good defenses, only that you'd better have a top offense to make the playoffs.  I see 4 teams ranking in the bottom half of the league (NO, LAR, KC, and NE) that were pretty good without a top defense.   

 

Still, this isn't so much about a W-L record, it's the strategic decisions before the season begins.  A defensive based HC more often than not goes defense upon entering a rebuild.  It's what they know. It's what DJ, even Nix (to transition to a 30 front), and now McCoach have done.  Those examples do not prove a defensive minded HC will fail or an OC oriented guy will succeed. It's how they value personnel and their former side of the ball as compared to the modern NFL.  

Edited October 13, 2018 by BillsVet

[BUFFALOKIE]

I like good defense. Generally speaking, I like watching a defense dominate a game. A good defense is priority 1 in my book.

 

But, if you have **** on offense, who cannot capitalize on even a mediocre defensive perfomance, your team still loses more often than not.

 

So, I dont know what is better: A great defense with average to piss-poor offense? Or the reverse? Methinks it does not matter. To have a good team, at least one side of ball has to be average or better, while the other side is good or great.

 

Disclaimer: I am considering abandoning this drunk post. Not very articulate...3.2.1...duck it. I love you man!

[Billsfan1972]

4 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

The game in 2001 and 2011 when those 2 QBs became starters has evolved considerably.  The RTP and PI penalties principally affect how defenses can take on a passing offense. In NE, Belichick didn't need Brady to be much more than efficient those first couple years until he developed. And Newton is a totally different player who actually had some offensive talent around him as a rookie and 2nd year player, especially their OL.  

 

McCoach, like most defensive guys, went defense heavy his first 2 off-season and now the offense stinks. He has no one to blame but himself for going the opposite way to success.  

 

Bang on.....  So damn simple and 20+ teams in the NFL realize that and are built that way......

[Logic]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

We're talking past each other. I never said there are "guarantees" to hiring an offensive type for a HC, only pointed out that strategically, rebuilds where defense is prioritized over offense is not going to work or will take much longer for the team to become successful.  And who is declaring success as winning a SB? I prefer the qualification as making the playoffs, of which only 12 teams can each season.  Those teams by seed are identified with their offensive yards gained and defensive yards allowed in parentheses.  Their playoff record is also provided. 

 

6. ATL (8, 9) 1-1    BUF (29, 26) 0-1

5. CAR (19, 7) 0-1 TEN (23, 13) 1-1

4. NO (2, 17) 1-1     KC (5, 28) 0-1

3.  LAR (10, 19) 0-1 JAX (6, 2) 2-1

2. MIN (11, 1) 1-1  NE (1, 29) 2-1

1. PHI (7, 3) 3-0     PIT (3, 5) 0-1

 

Nine of the top 11 offenses in yards gained advanced to the playoffs last year and won 10 combined playoff games.  That's not to say they didn't have good defenses, only that you'd better have a top offense to make the playoffs.  I see 4 teams ranking in the bottom half of the league (NO, LAR, KC, and NE) that were pretty good without a top defense.   

 

Still, this isn't so much about a W-L record, it's the strategic decisions before the season begins.  A defensive based HC more often than not goes defense upon entering a rebuild.  It's what they know. It's what DJ, even Nix (to transition to a 30 front), and now McCoach have done.  Those examples do not prove a defensive minded HC will fail or an OC oriented guy will succeed. It's how they value personnel and their former side of the ball as compared to the modern NFL.  

Quality response.

I entered the thread late, and it may have been erroneous on my part to address my post to you specifically. Based on your response, I now have a clearer picture of your stance (as opposed to the stance of the OP), and I don't disagree with it for the most part.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Logic

[Chris66]

8 hours ago, stuvian said:

Belichick is a defensive coach. What more needs to be said?

No he isnt. BB knows both.  Thats his offense they have been running for the past 15 years. All those offensive tweaks is all BB the guy is truly a football savant. Probably the last coach you will see that can gameplan both sides of the ball.

 

Over 1100 yards were posted in the superbowl last year with only one punt. I would say offense is trending a bit. Add that the rules now severely limit what a d can do.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Chris66

[Straight Hucklebuck]

On 10/2/2018 at 3:03 PM, Direhard Fan said:

No receivers.  No line.  Never planned on Allen being the guy this year.  What did you expect?   Loaded for next year with cap and picks.  Plan or not?  

“Never planned on Allen being the guy this year” - That’s a blind spot on this FO and Coaching staff. 

 

They thought Nate Peterman was a starting NFL QB with Kelvin Benjamin, Zay Jones and Jeremy Kerley as WRs. Then they cut Kerley and Ruben Foster/Ray Ray McCloud was moved up the depth chart. 

 

They trotted out practice squad level talent to try and compete on Sundays and are becoming impatient with the results. The Bills did this to themselves. 

[TigerJ]

John Fox and Jeff Fisher were fossils among NFL coaches.  They were both very conservative in their approach, and even though their pedigree was defense, they insisted the offense their coordinators called reflected their antiquated philosophies.  Daboll ran a pretty safe offense last week, but I think that was because they thought they could and it would protect Josh Allen.  I don't think it is necessarily in his (or McDermott's) DNA to be conservative and play it safe all the time.  If it is, the OP is probably right, and it's only a matter of time before the fans and the Pegulas get tired of it.

[Mat68]

On 10/2/2018 at 3:12 PM, racketmaster said:

Good post. It appears that good defensive coordinators will become similar to the current running back, replaceable. 

-The NFL is about offense and defense and special teams are becoming less important as a result of rule changes. Expect this trend to continue as more rules that make game “safer” will help offense more than defense.

 

And if that is the case, it would be wiser for an organization to hitch their wagon to an offensive “genius” rather than the defensive guru. Even if it is for the purpose of continuity. Players that fit the system will be developed and groomed over time and the system will remain in tact because the offensive leader will not leave the organization after any amount of success. That offensive coach will have plenty of defensive minds to choose from and the defensive side of the ball will not be as important anyway. 

 

On the other hand, if an organization tied themselves to a defensive coach, then there could be less continuity and talent on that side of the coaching staff. For example, if Dabol actually became a good coordinator he would be poached by another team. McDermott would either fill the position from the outside and risk losing continuity on the most important side of the ball or promote from within and risk not getting the most talented candidate for the most important side of the ball. 

 

It does not mean a defensive coach cannot work out, it just seems like they will have more challenges keeping top level coaching talent on the most important side of the ball.

This is where I give Bill Belichick alot of credit. He has been able to run the same offense with multiple Co Ordinators in his NE tenure.  He had as much a hand in the growth of Brady as anyone.  Seems most of the time HC with defensive backgrounds want an offense that supports his unit.  Conservative, heavy run depended and their offense lack aggressivness and creativity.  

[Happy]

2 hours ago, Chris66 said:

No he isnt. BB knows both.  Thats his offense they have been running for the past 15 years. All those offensive tweaks is all BB the guy is truly a football savant. Probably the last coach you will see that can gameplan both sides of the ball.

 

Over 1100 yards were posted in the superbowl last year with only one punt. I would say offense is trending a bit. Add that the rules now severely limit what a d can do.

 

Thanks for pointing this out, and I agree BB knows both.  For someone who started as Parcell's DC in NYG, BB has done an amazing job with NE's offense while still fielding a very good to good enough defense.  In addition, BB has the "finish them off" mentality where he will not let up until all the time on the clock has expired.  McDermott needs to follow this philosophy since it is proven to win championships, rather than play conservative, even with a large lead.  McDermott is light years behind BB as a coach since McD knows little about offense and can't even get an OC and position coach hire right.  It pains me to say this, but as of week 6, this is the case.

[Luka]

McDermott is a great coach. But his loyalties will be the end of him. He's gotta learn this is a business and you stay in business by winning. And you've got to be business enough to admit when a guy isn't working out, even when it's "your guy." Benjamin, Casitllo and Peterman come to mind. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Luka

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

....doubtful.........doesn't make a ton of sense...........

 

Ranking 10 NFL head coaches most likely to be fired this season

 

1 day ago

 

5. Sean McDermott, Buffalo Bills (2-3)

 

Considering the Bills have scored only 63 points in five games versus giving away 118, two wins for McDermott should be considered a miracle. The Bills are horrendous on offense and somehow managed upset victories against the Minnesota Vikings and Tennessee Titans in Weeks 3 and 5. Though, sandwiched between was a gross 0-22 shutout by the Green Bay Packers.

The saving grace for McDermott may be the fact that he coached the Bills into the playoffs in 2017 — ending a 17-year postseason drought. But that was not before McDermott botched the handling of Tyrod Taylor and delivered that whole Nathan Peterman five-interception nightmare. If the Bills trade away LeSean McCoy, their outlook for 2018 is even more bleak. Keeping McDermott around will be a tough sell should the Bills finish last in the AFC East.

 

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/ranking_10_nfl_head_coaches_most_likely_to_be_fired_this_season/s1_12680_27499151

 

[Wagon Circler]

MCderms has quietly built one of the best defenses in the league. Not interested in firing him regardless of our record this year. By default, they committed to a rookie an who is bad. The rest of the year is about hoping he improves. Don't even want to fire Beans even if he blew the Allen pick. Let's give him a 2nd draft and a ton of money and see what happens.

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

Spending the vast majority of your money and attention on the defense in the 2018 version of the NFL is !@#$ing laughable. McDermott and Beane are dinosaurs, and in two years the Bills will have missed out on a couple more franchise QBs and will clean house again. It's astounding that a franchise could be this inept for so long. At least he checks the tape. 

 

You don't have sustained success by building an expensive defense. The only way you sustain any success is by finding an elite passer because this is a passing league. I don't give a flying !@#$ if the defense is the best in football, it doesn't matter if you can't score. 

[Helpmenow]

19 hours ago, Luka said:

McDermott is a great coach. But his loyalties will be the end of him. He's gotta learn this is a business and you stay in business by winning. And you've got to be business enough to admit when a guy isn't working out, even when it's "your guy." Benjamin, Casitllo and Peterman come to mind. 

Why do you think McDermott is a great coach.

[MAJBobby]

The reality is McD has until the end of 2019. His seat will be hot at the end of this year and he better have a turn around on Offense in 2019 or he will (should be) gone 

[Luka]

1 hour ago, Helpmenow said:

Why do you think McDermott is a great coach.

 

I mean, look at the results from last year. A lesser coach and that's a 5-11 team. And this year, the change in the defense is unprecedented, from getting absolutely destroyed for 6 quarters to probably top 5 in the league. But as I said, his loyalties get him into trouble. Benjamin shouldn't be here, Peterman shouldn't be here. He makes big decisions based on those types of things and it gets him into trouble.

1 hour ago, Wagon Circler said:

MCderms has quietly built one of the best defenses in the league. Not interested in firing him regardless of our record this year. By default, they committed to a rookie an who is bad. The rest of the year is about hoping he improves. Don't even want to fire Beans even if he blew the Allen pick. Let's give him a 2nd draft and a ton of money and see what happens.

 

Yea everyone in LA thought the Rams blew the Goff pick too. Then they go out, rebuild the line and get a considerable amount of weapons for him to throw too and suddenly he's good. I wonder if Woods or Kupp told Goff "no" when he was looking for extra reps before a game. We've got an aging McCoy, Clay and....

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

Add Steve Wilks to the group after tonight!

 

Cardinals, Jets, Buffalo, Browns.

 

All teams need to seriously consider bringing in the Youngest, Brightest, Offensive Minded Cosches in the NFL to protect each teams MAJOR QB Investment and start to play ball in the Modern NFL.