THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Don't Look to Me for Answers

[MILFHUNTER#518]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is probably not a good choice of QB analogies, since Rodgers sat and learned for 3 years before starting in his 4th season.  Rivers again sat for 2 years, started his 3rd season.

 

And yes, even so, both had a couple stinkers their first year of play. 

 

Here we have a trifecta of worst possible cases: rookie QB, weak OL, weak receiving corps, and OC who is calling games like a novice.

 

 

I think that is one too many things for the rookie QB to be thinking about.  Benjamin isn't a rookie, if he stepped up he would have had position on the ball and the DB would have had to pull up or have the defenseless receiver rule zap him.  It was having the ball in his sights and nothing to stop him that had the DB charging in.

All very good points good post!?

[Shaw66]

15 hours ago, TFBillsfan said:

Thanks Shaw for the write up. As a long time Bills fan, I’ve conceded this year the Bills are a work in progress and most likely will finish with a top five draft pick. With that sad my expectations are minimal THIS year. I’m looking for a few things this season:

 

1) How is McDermott learning and growing as a head coach?

2) Are players improving and developing?

3) Can our OC put together a consistent and competitive offensive scheme?

4) Does Josh learn from his mistakes that he will make and improve at reading defenses?

 

Lastly, regarding Allen I have major concerns who is helping him develop? Who’s in the film room with him, who is talking to him on the sidelines? The lack of an experienced QB to help him is a HUGE void in my opinion. I feel this staff has put him on an island and it’s ALL on him to learn and improve with zero supporting cast.

 

 

These all are good points, and I don't think there are many good answers.  

 

I agree particularly about no veteran QB in the room.  I thought that was the whole point in acquiring McCarron. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

These all are good points, and I don't think there are many good answers.  

 

I agree particularly about no veteran QB in the room.  I thought that was the whole point in acquiring McCarron. 

 

I'm still SMH about the quoted Beane comment to whoeveritwas "McCarron wasn't who we thought he was".  Who on earth did they think he was and why, based on what?  It seems like another possible instance where their player personnel evaluation is shallow as a summer brook.

 

But the real issue is that McCarron - any QB who can count his NFL starts on one hand - qualifies as a veteran QB only from the viewpoint of years in the league.  If the plan all along was to draft Allen, why not recruit an actual veteran QB - a Fitz, a Moore, an Anderson?  Someone who has been around and seen a lot, and can help?

 

IMO (and this is just my opinion, no inside skinny to back it up) Daboll went out of his way to avoid putting anyone in the QB room who would seriously question or second guess him.  He wanted to control the vertical and the horizontal on JA's development and to be the unquestioned voice of authority.  There's something to be said for the "too many chefs spoil the broth" philosophy, but there's also a well-established point where diverse teams where different viewpoints are brought up and effectively addressed are proven to have higher function than one-man-bands (listen to DeFilippo and Reich talk about Pederson as a HC after the Superbowl, and how open he was to listening to any ideas).

 

There is probably a happy medium between the "too many cooks" and "only one driver" plan.

[Dr. Who]

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm still SMH about the quoted Beane comment to whoeveritwas "McCarron wasn't who we thought he was".  Who on earth did they think he was and why, based on what?  It seems like another possible instance where their player personnel evaluation is shallow as a summer brook.

 

But the real issue is that McCarron - any QB who can count his NFL starts on one hand - qualifies as a veteran QB only from the viewpoint of years in the league.  If the plan all along was to draft Allen, why not recruit an actual veteran QB - a Fitz, a Moore, an Anderson?  Someone who has been around and seen a lot, and can help?

 

IMO (and this is just my opinion, no inside skinny to back it up) Daboll went out of his way to avoid putting anyone in the QB room who would seriously question or second guess him.  He wanted to control the vertical and the horizontal on JA's development and to be the unquestioned voice of authority.  There's something to be said for the "too many chefs spoil the broth" philosophy, but there's also a well-established point where diverse teams where different viewpoints are brought up and effectively addressed are proven to have higher function than one-man-bands (listen to DeFilippo and Reich talk about Pederson as a HC after the Superbowl, and how open he was to listening to any ideas).

 

There is probably a happy medium between the "too many cooks" and "only one driver" plan.

Daboll may turn out to have learned from previous stints and become an excellent OC. At this point, however, he doesn't have even a mediocre NFL track record. If Andy Reid is the coach, the "one driver plan" is justified. In our case, we don't seem to have the ingredients for either approach. Our qb coach mainly coached wr, our o-line coach seems a significant step down from Kromer, our OC is a question mark. Excellent point about McCarron's thin qualifications as a veteran presence. I'd love to have Fitz as the backup/mentor, but surely Moore or Anderson is preferable to Nate Peterman.

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

Daboll may turn out to have learned from previous stints and become an excellent OC. At this point, however, he doesn't have even a mediocre NFL track record. If Andy Reid is the coach, the "one driver plan" is justified. In our case, we don't seem to have the ingredients for either approach. Our qb coach mainly coached wr, our o-line coach seems a significant step down from Kromer, our OC is a question mark. Excellent point about McCarron's thin qualifications as a veteran presence. I'd love to have Fitz as the backup/mentor, but surely Moore or Anderson is preferable to Nate Peterman.

The "veteran presence" in the QB room is a train that's already left the station.   There isn't one there now, unlikely one will be there for the rest of the season.  The value of the veteran presence next season will be substantially less.   Next season Allen will already have the playing experience of a lot of journeymen.  He's just going to have to stumble along as well as he can for the time being.  

 

Looking for a comeback this Sunday.   I hope Allen can get back on track.  

[BadLandsMeanie]

Thanks Shaw.

 

Good write up as I am accustomed to. I learn about what happened from your posts.

 

I'm barely watching the games because I don't want to spend 3 hours watching that.

 

But when I have been looking at the TV I am not seeing much enthusiasm from the players some or even most of the time.

 

 

[Shaw66]

18 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Thanks Shaw.

 

Good write up as I am accustomed to. I learn about what happened from your posts.

 

I'm barely watching the games because I don't want to spend 3 hours watching that.

 

But when I have been looking at the TV I am not seeing much enthusiasm from the players some or even most of the time.

 

 

Meanie, that's a really good comment.  Everything about the game Sunday screamed no energy.  No intensity.   There never was a moment where you thought "okay, here we go."   

[BadLandsMeanie]

6 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Meanie, that's a really good comment.  Everything about the game Sunday screamed no energy.  No intensity.   There never was a moment where you thought "okay, here we go."   

Thanks. I had a thought. What do I know? But I had a thought.

 

McDermott is very system and process oriented as we know. 

In line with that, the Bills have built more and more of a cocoon around the players. Less interaction with the fans and more focus and control being the object.

If you view it as a process it makes perfect sense. More time focused on learning and practicing and efficiency.

 

Camp is an easy example. It is a hindrance to go to and from Fisher. The facilities are less state of the art for quick viewing and analysis of film etc.

They have to go because Kim Pegula makes them go.

But they cut the time span in half. They cut back on autograph time etc because they have work to do. They move to fields out of fans' in the grandstands view as needed, which was needed quite a bit

And they do little to none of the "show - off" kind of practicing that was done in the past.

 

Pre-McD, they would have some showy simulated game-ish types of practices under the lights at night. With fan packed grandstands with plenty of "oohs" and "ahhs"

 

So they cut out all that. And again it makes very good sense from an industrial productivity kind of process viewpoint.

 

But they also lose part of the player experience. 

 

Players would look over at the packed granstands full of cheering or sometimes jeering fans, and think "These people are crazy. This is a practice. We are practicing out here"

 

They don't meet the fans. They don't get to know us. Not really. Not like when you see that the 80 year old lady with her oxygen tank is in the stands again today.

 

To watch you practice.

 

Who knows? I'm just guessing.

 

But when I see the team playing listlessly,  I wonder if it's because they haven't connected with the fans.

 

And when Vontae Davis asks himself, "Why am I doing this?" and he doesn't know, and then gets in his car leaves, I wonder if it's because he hasn't connected with the fans.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BillsFan130]

On 10/1/2018 at 3:47 PM, nucci said:

I watched so many teams roll up 400 yards of offense and scoring 30-40 points....exciting finishes to so many games yet we score 0.

It really is mind boggling how an offence in 2018 can get shut out. It is unacceptable 

[Shaw66]

9 hours ago, billsfan11 said:

It really is mind boggling how an offence in 2018 can get shut out. It is unacceptable 

It's a fair point.  So far this season NFL games are looking like college games, and it's pretty tough to get shut out in college.  

[GreggTX]

We're rebuilding. If you're getting all upset about it, I think that's on you. This is how rebuilds usually work. You bite the bullet for a year or 2 and hopefully emerge stronger than before. Time will tell, but right now I'm just waiting it out until FA starts.

[BillsFan130]

33 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

It's a fair point.  So far this season NFL games are looking like college games, and it's pretty tough to get shut out in college.  

Yep. And in 2 out of 4 games, the Bills have gotten 0 and 3 points. Pathetic 

[BillsFan130]

27 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

We're rebuilding. If you're getting all upset about it, I think that's on you. This is how rebuilds usually work. You bite the bullet for a year or 2 and hopefully emerge stronger than before. Time will tell, but right now I'm just waiting it out until FA starts.

Some big red flags.

 

1. Do you trust Daboll go develop Allen?

2. Do you think Allen can iron out his flaws to Becoming a franchise QB?

3. Their O line is just pathetic 

4. They don’t have 1 playmaker 

5. Worst receivers in football 

6. They have been blown out 3 out of 4 games.

 

So while I agree with you that it’s s rebuild, I don’t think anyone thought it would be this ugly. Including Beane and McD.

[GreggTX]

Our OL will look very different in 2019 and they did know about Wood and Incognito. WR  and OL will be addressed when we have the resources to do it (which we didn't have in this past offseason). I see no justification for judging Daboll when you've just finished pointing out that he needs more talent. As far as Allen is concerned, no one can say where his ceiling is this soon, so why pass judgement on his 'developer' before you see the results. As far as the rest of these complaints are concerned, we're rebuilding. We unloaded several overpaid underachievers and we're eating their dead money. Honestly, I don't mind waiting for the rebuild to finish half as much as all the whining.

18 minutes ago, billsfan11 said:

Some big red flags.

 

1. Do you trust Daboll go develop Allen?

2. Do you think Allen can iron out his flaws to Becoming a franchise QB?

3. Their O line is just pathetic 

4. They don’t have 1 playmaker 

5. Worst receivers in football 

6. They have been blown out 3 out of 4 games.

 

So while I agree with you that it’s s rebuild, I don’t think anyone thought it would be this ugly. Including Beane and McD.

I didn't expect it to be this ugly either, but I've seen worse. At least we'll have the resources to address all of these issues in 2019. Just relax and take it in stride. If we are still having most of these problems next year, then I will join the chorus of boos, but not this soon. Not before we have sufficient cap space to deal with this.

[BillsFan130]

19 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

Our OL will look very different in 2019 and they did know about Wood and Incognito. WR  and OL will be addressed when we have the resources to do it (which we didn't have in this past offseason). I see no justification for judging Daboll when you've just finished pointing out that he needs more talent. As far as Allen is concerned, no one can say where his ceiling is this soon, so why pass judgement on his 'developer' before you see the results. As far as the rest of these complaints are concerned, we're rebuilding. We unloaded several overpaid underachievers and we're eating their dead money. Honestly, I don't mind waiting for the rebuild to finish half as much as all the whining.

I didn't expect it to be this ugly either, but I've seen worse. At least we'll have the resources to address all of these issues in 2019. Just relax and take it in stride. If we are still having most of these problems next year, then I will join the chorus of boos, but not this soon. Not before we have sufficient cap space to deal with this.

Well I guess another concern is how is Beane going to spend the money lol.

 

I certainly haven’t been too impressed with his free agent signings so far

[Ayjent]

48 minutes ago, billsfan11 said:

Well I guess another concern is how is Beane going to spend the money lol.

 

I certainly haven’t been too impressed with his free agent signings so far

Free Agent signings from other teams usually mean you are getting the guys that the former team didn't think was worth the money of keeping around.  Not always but a good percentage of the time.  Moreover, in terms of spending money wisely, Free Agents are the worst bang for the buck and a significant part of the mess Beane/McDermott inherited with the cap.  If you think they are going to avoid some of the same issues with potential dead cap issues, then you should set your expectations that they aren't going to be signing the best of bunch of FAs.  Coveted guys want big guaranteed money.  So the cap thing to me is really a bit of a red herring - it helps you have flexibility to spend money, but its not like the issues they just found their way out from under will be avoidable, it will just be their personnel and cap decisions that they are saddled with and not someone else's.

 

The better way to spend money is to keep the young talent you drafted and covet, not much to worry about for at least a couple of years there, unless you think Benjamin is a keeper.  They need to stock up in the draft and I really didn't understand the plan this year - draft your QB, but neglect the Offense around him, especially a failure to make sure you have a stable, proven option at QB (they still have that opportunity but have been curiously silent in trying to shore that up).

Edited October 3, 2018 by Ayjent

[Ayjent]

Shaw,

 

Good post.

 

What I'm most curious about is what the GM and Coaching staff realistically thought that they would be able to do with the personnel they had and through the decisions they made.  I've heard people give their opinions on this board and take statements and come up with between the lines reasoning, e.g., they know they are rebuilding, they didn't expect to improve this year and are taking their medicine. 

 

While I don't know if that is the case this year, I do know that Beane and McDermott expressly addressed that stuff last year by telling us their larger plan, stay competitive while remaking the team.  I wasn't a big fan of the moves they made last year before the season, but the results were way better than most of us expected.  I honestly think they thought they were going to improve more this year, building off of last years success while churning the roster more to their liking.  I think they underestimated the value of the QB position and the talent level they had at that position.  The guys they chose to go forward with this year proves that.  The same can be said of the WR and OL.    I think they saw a stable situation for a young pair of QBs coming off of a playoff appearance and thought that they wouldn't be any worse than last year.

 

I look at it this way, do you really ever want to get worse from one year to the next?  Especially in year 2 of your tenure?  You usually want an upward or even trend not a downward one.  I don't know if we'll ever truly know what they expected, but I'm guessing the Pegulas do.

[GreggTX]

3 hours ago, billsfan11 said:

Well I guess another concern is how is Beane going to spend the money lol.

 

I certainly haven’t been too impressed with his free agent signings so far

Agreed, but he hasn't really had the funds due to all that dead money. I don't know what to make of T Murphy yet because he's just now seeing his first action since that nasty injury. He certainly looked good before that injury. Lotulelei, I'm not sure of either. If he's consistently drawing double teams and collapsing the pocket then I'm OK with him. I'd have to watch him more closely. At any rate, I'm pretty sure Beane will be after more expensive FA's next Spring. Again, we'll just have to wait and see. Next year's roster shakeup could be more dramatic than last year's

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Ayjent said:

Shaw,

 

Good post.

 

What I'm most curious about is what the GM and Coaching staff realistically thought that they would be able to do with the personnel they had and through the decisions they made.  I've heard people give their opinions on this board and take statements and come up with between the lines reasoning, e.g., they know they are rebuilding, they didn't expect to improve this year and are taking their medicine. 

 

While I don't know if that is the case this year, I do know that Beane and McDermott expressly addressed that stuff last year by telling us their larger plan, stay competitive while remaking the team.  I wasn't a big fan of the moves they made last year before the season, but the results were way better than most of us expected.  I honestly think they thought they were going to improve more this year, building off of last years success while churning the roster more to their liking.  I think they underestimated the value of the QB position and the talent level they had at that position.  The guys they chose to go forward with this year proves that.  The same can be said of the WR and OL.    I think they saw a stable situation for a young pair of QBs coming off of a playoff appearance and thought that they wouldn't be any worse than last year.

 

I look at it this way, do you really ever want to get worse from one year to the next?  Especially in year 2 of your tenure?  You usually want an upward or even trend not a downward one.  I don't know if we'll ever truly know what they expected, but I'm guessing the Pegulas do.

Here's what's bothering me:

 

I believe this game is more about coaching than talent.   Most teams have ordinary talent at most positions, and I think that's what the Bils have.  It's coaching that makes the difference.  

 

I believe ordinary talent properly coached will play competitive football in this league.  The Bills offense doesn't look competitive, and I'm beginning to worry that the coaching is substandard.   McDermott is now on his second offensive coordinator, and we've seen one a quarter seasons of failing offense.  The offensive line had the entire off-season to learn their jobs, and they don't seem to know what they're doing.   The receivers are doing very little, and I think that reflects directly on play design and play calling.  

 

Improving talent should take a well coached team from average to above average.   You shouldn't need to improve talent to play respectable football. 

 

I didn't worry about it so much last season - it was the first season for McDermott.  But I'm worrying about it now.   

[Ayjent]

On 10/3/2018 at 2:39 PM, Shaw66 said:

Here's what's bothering me:

 

I believe this game is more about coaching than talent.   Most teams have ordinary talent at most positions, and I think that's what the Bils have.  It's coaching that makes the difference.  

 

I believe ordinary talent properly coached will play competitive football in this league.  The Bills offense doesn't look competitive, and I'm beginning to worry that the coaching is substandard.   McDermott is now on his second offensive coordinator, and we've seen one a quarter seasons of failing offense.  The offensive line had the entire off-season to learn their jobs, and they don't seem to know what they're doing.   The receivers are doing very little, and I think that reflects directly on play design and play calling.  

 

Improving talent should take a well coached team from average to above average.   You shouldn't need to improve talent to play respectable football. 

 

I didn't worry about it so much last season - it was the first season for McDermott.  But I'm worrying about it now.   

I thinks it’s a combination of the talent and coaching. I think they are substandard in both on Offense and pretty good in places with talent and have average coaching that can be pretty good at times on D.  This is the standard issue uneven team that has plagued the Bills for years, they rarely have both units at a caliber that compliments consistent winning.   

 

I think the Bills were more talented last year and I don’t think Daboll is worse than Dennison, but their OL coach has not changed and neither have the results up front, they’ve gotten worse because of talent (talent this regime has had two years to address).  So the coaching does matter, but these are run of the mill coaches that have their scheme and don’t coach to their personnel’s strengths.  That is the hallmark of good coaching.