Alaska Darin Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Where's that bridge going? To the moon? 284422[/snapback] Knik Crossing Bridge Believe it or not, it's only going to span about 2 miles. The problem is, the tide swing is the 2nd largest is the WORLD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 23, 2005 Author Share Posted March 23, 2005 Really? So it has nothing to do with silly little things like free trade or outsourcing etc.? Tell me again how long unions have been around? Do you honestly believe that unions are the sole reason for the slow demise of our manufacturing sector? 284592[/snapback] Let's think logically, if at all possible: 1) Outsourcing---why do you think it's happening? Could it POSSIBLY be that unions drove the cost of labor in the USA through the roof, thereby making it nearly impossible for American companies to be competitive? Nah, couldn't be. 2) free trade is silly? How so? By ensuring that American consumers get th best bang for their buck? What a horrible thing!! 3) Unions have been around about 100 years too long, IMO. The golden age of American manufacturing was that period immediately before the AFL-CIO came into existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 No, it's more like disgust with the fact that unions have decimated the American manufacturing sector. 284562[/snapback] Not to mention the airline industry. But don't worry, all those union pensions will be covered by the taxpayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 The golden age of American manufacturing was that period immediately before the AFL-CIO came into existence. 284596[/snapback] Mandatory 12-hour workdays, a 6 six day work week, the exploitation of blacks and immigrants (via padrones), and children being plucked from orphanages to be forced into dangerous labor were the norm. The Knights of Labor were the first organized labor group (not including farmer co-ops). They won 8-hour workdays and protection for children via child labor laws, although it took bloodshed and occasional rioting to do so. But I'm not sure I'd call that a "golden age" of anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 23, 2005 Author Share Posted March 23, 2005 Mandatory 12-hour workdays, a 6 six day work week, the exploitation of blacks and immigrants (via padrones), and children being plucked from orphanages to be forced into dangerous labor were the norm. The Knights of Labor were the first organized labor group (not including farmer co-ops). They won 8-hour workdays and protection for children via child labor laws, although it took bloodshed and occasional rioting to do so. But I'm not sure I'd call that a "golden age" of anything... 284715[/snapback] Guess what...Our number one economic competitor uses the same tactics. Think we're going to win in that kind of a market with unions holding business back? Not a chance in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Guess what...Our number one economic competitor uses the same tactics. 284719[/snapback] To which nation are you referring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 23, 2005 Author Share Posted March 23, 2005 To which nation are you referring? 284720[/snapback] The one with over a billion inhabitants that now has global dominance in steel, plastics and computational manufacturing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 The one with over a billion inhabitants that now has global dominance in steel, plastics and computational manufacturing. 284725[/snapback] Ah, China, that's who I thought you meant, I just wanted to make sure. If the only way to compete with them is to emulate them, I'd rather not. Check it out - I worked in a union shop while in college in the mid-late 80's. The Japanese were kicking our butts, so the union officers and management officers sat down, took a very genuine, no BS look at the market and our numbers. The union called a meeting, and the membership unanimously agreed to cuts - deeper cuts than management sought. One of the reasons we did that is because senior management agreed to take salary cuts. In addition, they volunteered to cash in their options and along with their bonuses, re-invested it all into the company. The cuts have since been restored (a bunch of friends I see every September still work there), and things are relatively good there nowadays. But it takes both parties to stop their bluffing and BS'ing, knock off the finger-pointing, and take a serious look at making effective concessions for the benefit of those to whom they are responsible, namely the company and its shareholders. Blaming unions for all of the ills is convenient, but fairly myopic IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyLee Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Guess what...Our number one economic competitor uses the same tactics. Think we're going to win in that kind of a market with unions holding business back? Not a chance in hell. 284719[/snapback] So you think we should revert back to that "golden age" eh? We'll never be able to compete with nickle an hour wages, even without unions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 23, 2005 Author Share Posted March 23, 2005 Ah, China, that's who I thought you meant, I just wanted to make sure. If the only way to compete with them is to emulate them, I'd rather not. Check it out - I worked in a union shop while in college in the mid-late 80's. The Japanese were kicking our butts, so the union officers and management officers sat down, took a very genuine, no BS look at the market and our numbers. The union called a meeting, and the membership unanimously agreed to cuts - deeper cuts than management sought. One of the reasons we did that is because senior management agreed to take salary cuts. In addition, they volunteered to cash in their options and along with their bonuses, re-invested it all into the company. The cuts have since been restored (a bunch of friends I see every September still work there), and things are relatively good there nowadays. But it takes both parties to stop their bluffing and BS'ing, knock off the finger-pointing, and take a serious look at making effective concessions for the benefit of those to whom they are responsible, namely the company and its shareholders. Blaming unions for all of the ills is convenient, but fairly myopic IMO. 284742[/snapback] Labor costs are paramount in product pricing. While what your union did was quite noble, I'll guarantee there aren't a whole lot of other unions out there clamoring to do the same. The fact remains: entire US industries were destroyed due to high labor costs. Businesses are in business to make money, not to pay employees wages. If they can improve their profit margins by moving operations to China or Mexico, they will do so, it's common-sense. Want examples ofindustries in which this has happened? Look at Steel, Textiles or virtually any other commodity manufacturing business. And, BTW, competition with a capitalist and democratic Japan is one thing. Competing with a fully-mobilized corporate-communist state in China is a whole 'nother animal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Ah, China, that's who I thought you meant, I just wanted to make sure. If the only way to compete with them is to emulate them, I'd rather not. Check it out - I worked in a union shop while in college in the mid-late 80's. The Japanese were kicking our butts, so the union officers and management officers sat down, took a very genuine, no BS look at the market and our numbers. The union called a meeting, and the membership unanimously agreed to cuts - deeper cuts than management sought. One of the reasons we did that is because senior management agreed to take salary cuts. In addition, they volunteered to cash in their options and along with their bonuses, re-invested it all into the company. The cuts have since been restored (a bunch of friends I see every September still work there), and things are relatively good there nowadays. But it takes both parties to stop their bluffing and BS'ing, knock off the finger-pointing, and take a serious look at making effective concessions for the benefit of those to whom they are responsible, namely the company and its shareholders. Blaming unions for all of the ills is convenient, but fairly myopic IMO. 284742[/snapback] Good post. Unions have their problems, the executives have their problems. Tarring one side and giving the other a pass is very short-sighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 23, 2005 Author Share Posted March 23, 2005 Good post. Unions have their problems, the executives have their problems. Tarring one side and giving the other a pass is very short-sighted. 284757[/snapback] Is management partly to blame? Absolutely. But among the top expenses for businesses in the US is labor costs. Without a government prop in the forms of subsidies or tarriffs, US manufacturers will never be able to compete with lower-cost Latin American or Asian operations. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 So what's your point? That the root of all evil is the fact that some people are doing well? That people who invent and create and succeed don't deserve the rewards that come with the risk of failure? Gee, we'd all be so much better off if Thomas Edison and Albert Einstein had taken union jobs to lock in their $35/hour plus benefits. 284530[/snapback] Oh yes, because there are SO MANY Einsteins and Edisons out there ...DOH!. Those people are few and far between and make life better for the rest of us. They are WELL COMPENSATED (bill Gates, Michael Dell, etc) for their innovation,risk taking, and ingenuity. But MOST PEOPLE are not Bill Gates. By Your thinking, no one but the intellectual elite deserves any shot at a good living. Such a society cannot and does not exist. But the fact is that the richest 1% of Americans control a hugely disproportionate share of the wealth-the largest in US history and newsflash...it's growing every year. The Middle class that is the backbone of our society is shrinking every year. Now raise your hand and tell me you think that is a good thing. This fact disproves the anti-union rant. If companies are "going broke" why are the super-rich continuing to get richer? Because benefits and pay to average middle class workers is shrinking. Largely due to the demise of unions. Those without unions are now angry at those with. Exactly what the elite want. Get them fighting amongst themselves and they'll ignore the real problem. The Money is out there. Greed is a productive human trait to a point. When it overwhelms to the point that enough is never enough, well that's the demise of civilization as we know it. By your logic, everyone should be an entrepreneur. That obviously is not realistic. Is everyone on this board a multi millionaire, or do they just like to "pretend" that they are? What have you invented today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 23, 2005 Author Share Posted March 23, 2005 By your logic, everyone should be an entrepreneur. That obviously is not realistic. 284824[/snapback] Why not? Today it's easier than ever to be an entrepeneur. Did you know that the lion's share of our economy is driven by small businesses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Oh yes, because there are SO MANY Einsteins and Edisons out there ...DOH!. Those people are few and far between and make life better for the rest of us. They are WELL COMPENSATED (bill Gates, Michael Dell, etc) for their innovation,risk taking, and ingenuity. But MOST PEOPLE are not Bill Gates. By Your thinking, no one but the intellectual elite deserves any shot at a good living. Such a society cannot and does not exist. But the fact is that the richest 1% of Americans control a hugely disproportionate share of the wealth-the largest in US history and newsflash...it's growing every year. The Middle class that is the backbone of our society is shrinking every year. Now raise your hand and tell me you think that is a good thing. This fact disproves the anti-union rant. If companies are "going broke" why are the super-rich continuing to get richer? Because benefits and pay to average middle class workers is shrinking. Largely due to the demise of unions. Those without unions are now angry at those with. Exactly what the elite want. Get them fighting amongst themselves and they'll ignore the real problem. The Money is out there. Greed is a productive human trait to a point. When it overwhelms to the point that enough is never enough, well that's the demise of civilization as we know it. By your logic, everyone should be an entrepreneur. That obviously is not realistic. Is everyone on this board a multi millionaire, or do they just like to "pretend" that they are? What have you invented today? 284824[/snapback] There is a lot of truth in what you say. The United States as we know it will not survive without a healthy middle-class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Because benefits and pay to average middle class workers is shrinking. Largely due to the demise of unions. 284824[/snapback] That's actually only one small factor. But don't let that get in the way of your "pro-union" rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 The Middle class that is the backbone of our society is shrinking every year. Now raise your hand and tell me you think that is a good thing. This fact disproves the anti-union rant. If companies are "going broke" why are the super-rich continuing to get richer? Because benefits and pay to average middle class workers is shrinking. Largely due to the demise of unions. Those without unions are now angry at those with. Exactly what the elite want. Get them fighting amongst themselves and they'll ignore the real problem. The Money is out there. Greed is a productive human trait to a point. 284824[/snapback] The Elite? Seriously, are you a communist? The demise of unions probably has more to do with the fact that it makes no sense to do business with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 You can make 28 bucks an hour turning bolts if you are in a union??? That's just under what I make, and I have two science degrees, one is a graduate degree. I'm going to shoot my guidance councilor........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 What "Alaska rebate?" Have I been missing something I should have been getting? 283758[/snapback] Wrong word I suppose. Is there not money, that is given to every Alaskan do to the pipeline each and every year? Tax free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Wrong word I suppose. Is there not money, that is given to every Alaskan do to the pipeline each and every year? Tax free? 285278[/snapback] Tax free? Nope. I get a 1099 every year to pay taxes on. The Permanent Fund Dividend is the royalties paid to Alaskan citizens for the right to our resources. Currently the fund is worth over $30,000,000,000.00. The dividend is the annual payout of the income the fund generates based on a complicated formula. It fluctuates every year. It has been as high as $1963.86 per qualified citizen (meaning a family of 4 would get a deposit of nearly $8K). It's one of the shining examples of government by the people, for the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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