The Rosen Era Has Begun in Arizona

[John from Riverside]

39 minutes ago, syhuang said:

People have their own opinions on whether Cardinals have better o-line or Bills have better o-line, or which team has more starter quality offensive lineman and which team has more backup quality instead, but basically both Allen and Rosen are one of the most pressured QBs in the league. We can save each other time by just saying both team's o-line suck instead of arguing which o-line sucks a little bit more.

 

 

And the following is how quarterbacks perform under pressure. Basically both Allen and Rosen are in the bottom 5.

 

 

The amount of times that Josh has put the ball on the money on 3rd and forever to have it called back by a penalty or have it dropped is worth noting

[syhuang]

41 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

The amount of times that Josh has put the ball on the money on 3rd and forever to have it called back by a penalty or have it dropped is worth noting

 

I was just trying to say that it's pretty pointless to argue which team's o-line sucks more or use o-line as excuse on either QB's performance. As just shown, both QBs are among top 5 under pressure.

 

Regarding both QBs this season, it's pretty obvious Rosen has a more rough season like the following which I posted earlier. But again, it's way too early to tell which one will be better in the future.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by syhuang

[BeginnersMind]

6 hours ago, syhuang said:

 

I was just trying to say that it's pretty pointless to argue which team's o-line sucks more or use o-line as excuse on either QB's performance. As just shown, both QBs are among top 5 under pressure.

 

Regarding both QBs this season, it's pretty obvious Rosen has a more rough season like the following which I posted earlier. But again, it's way too early to tell which one will be better in the future.

 

 

 

 

 

Any stat where you're behind Peterman...

[26CornerBlitz]

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 12/26/2018 at 3:41 PM, C.Biscuit97 said:

its also worth pointing out that Allen averages almost 70 yards (did you mean less?) passing than Anderson/ Barkley.  Those are dime a dozen backups who were brought in the middle of the season.  Did the wrs suddenly get better? 

(For comparison, Rosen averages 30 more yards passing than Bradford; mayfield averages 140 more yards than Tyrod!; Darnold averages 90 more yards than McCown)

 

so my conclusion. Allen, while having a bad group of receivers, isn’t as good of a passer as backup/ fringe nfl QBs with the same group.  He needs to improve as a passer, which was the knock coming out of college. I hope he does.

 

Biscuit, please excuse if this is known to you and you're chosing to ignore it but...

 

It is statistically speaking, inappropriate to compare means (averages) from disparate sample sizes. 

Barkley played 1 game.  Anderson played 2.  Allen has played 11 (counting partial games).  You simply can't talk about "averaging almost 70 yards less" in a meaningful way comparing n = 1, n = 2, and n = 11.

 

It's always helpful to look at raw numbers when the dataset is small. 

 

In his 1 game, Barkley threw for 230 yards.  Anderson threw for 175 yards in 1 game, and 290 yards in another.  In his complete games, Allen has passed for 245, 196, 151, and 82 yds then (after injury) 160, 231, 206, 204, and 217 yards.  Just comparing complete games, you are looking at 188 yds (n=9, range 82-245 yds) average vs. 230 yds (n=1) vs 175 or 290 yds (n=2).  You really can not construct a good statistical argument those are different numbers in any event, but the difference is ~40 yds, not "almost 70".

 

In addition, the distribution of Allen passing yards appears to be non-random - the lower yardage games to date are before the injury.  Since we have a sound basis for believing there might be a basis for the difference (he is a rookie, and benefited from more time to watch film and learn the offense), it's worth looking at that.  204 yds, so now we're talking about a difference of ~26 yds.  Now we're talking about a dropped pass or 1-2 plays where an open WR was not seen, and it's pretty clear this may or may not have anything to do with who is or isn't "as good of a passer".

 

I personally believe, and am on the record saying, that Allen needs to improve and develop more consistency as a passer, but it's poppycock to misuse statistics as above to make a point that he's a worse passer than "backup/fringe QB" Barkley or Anderson based upon the data we have.

[IgotBILLStopay]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Biscuit, please excuse if this is known to you and you're chosing to ignore it but...

 

It is statistically speaking, inappropriate to compare means (averages) from disparate sample sizes. 

Barkley played 1 game.  Anderson played 2.  Allen has played 11 (counting partial games).  You simply can't talk about "averaging almost 70 yards less" in a meaningful way comparing n = 1, n = 2, and n = 11.

 

It's always helpful to look at raw numbers when the dataset is small. 

 

In his 1 game, Barkley threw for 230 yards.  Anderson threw for 175 yards in 1 game, and 290 yards in another.  In his complete games, Allen has passed for 245, 196, 151, and 82 yds then (after injury) 160, 231, 206, 204, and 217 yards.  Just comparing complete games, you are looking at 188 yds (n=9, range 82-245 yds) average vs. 230 yds (n=1) vs 175 or 290 yds (n=2).  You really can not construct a good statistical argument those are different numbers in any event, but the difference is ~40 yds, not "almost 70".

 

In addition, the distribution of Allen passing yards appears to be non-random - the lower yardage games to date are before the injury.  Since we have a sound basis for believing there might be a basis for the difference (he is a rookie, and benefited from more time to watch film and learn the offense), it's worth looking at that.  204 yds, so now we're talking about a difference of ~26 yds.  Now we're talking about a dropped pass or 1-2 plays where an open WR was not seen, and it's pretty clear this may or may not have anything to do with who is or isn't "as good of a passer".

 

I personally believe, and am on the record saying, that Allen needs to improve and develop more consistency as a passer, but it's poppycock to misuse statistics as above to make a point that he's a worse passer than "backup/fringe QB" Barkley or Anderson based upon the data we have.

And those are just for passing. When you factor in Allen’s yardage on the ground, supporting cast (lack), intangibles ( the entire team responds to him) etc. , I would put him as the undisputed #2 rookie QB with a real shot at being the best of the 2018 draft class next season.

[Bing Bong]

Y'all the Cardinals offense is godawful. So is the Bills. If Allen didn't have his running threat he'd look no better than Rosen.

 

If you made me pick which QB to start against an alien race for the fate of the world I'd pick Allen.. mostly because I've watched him more, his athleticism, and Rosen's weekly Cardinals highlight tape looks godawful. Otherwise I don't think we know much of what's going on over there. If JA didn't have his freak athleticism we'd be pretty damn nervous about our Quarterback.

 

The Bills suck. But I think the Cardinals.. really. Suck. Some of that's Rosen too, he can't let players hide like Allen does playing hero ball.

 

I'm team Allen. I also think the Cards non QB offense might even be worse than ours. I know. Impossible take.

 

But I would like to take this moment to chastise those who said Rosen "looks like a girl" and wouldn't last an NFL season. Dude's an NFL Quarterback. He's tough and played behind a **** OL the whole season. Some unflattering picture of him in slim football training pads gave the awesome "he sucks. Just look at him" take. Nooo. He just flat out sucks right now as does his offense. Don't body shame! Not cool.

 

You're arguing about which tire fire burns brighter to defend 2 crappy TD/INT ratios. Do you want to take pride in the Bills team or do you want the offense to be as horrific as possible to make Allen shine brighter? Christ, Teller is a human being too folks and y'all out here stripping his dignity to make Allen look better. Let's start a thread over which offense makes their LG look worse than he is too while we're at it.

 

Y'all got a lot of growing up to do I tell ya what.

 

And that's coming from me. An alcoholic jackwagon that called himself PetermanThrew5Picks for over a year

Edited December 29, 2018 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 12/26/2018 at 4:38 PM, thebandit27 said:

 

Happy holidays to you as well

 

For Smith, he had a career-high 11 TDs in 2015, so he couldn't have been THAT bad 

 

Anyway, I think we can agree that it's unacceptable that Allen is the team's entire offense, and that it has to change if they want to be successful 

 

2014.  Torrey had 11 TD in 2014 with Bal.

2015 4 TD with SF

 

I certainly do agree with your last statement.

On 12/27/2018 at 6:46 AM, BeginnersMind said:

 

Any stat where you're behind Peterman...

 

I'm not sure that "total points" or "expected points" thing meets most people's definition of a statistic.

 

Any numerical metric where I have to read an article describing it and I still have no freakin' clue what's being measured, how, and how it's being calculated doesn't qualify.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, IgotBILLStopay said:

And those are just for passing.

 

Well, passing was the topic of discussion.

 

It seemed to be generally acknowledged that a QB that is seen as more of a threat with his legs than his arm (eg Taylor) is not the franchise QB of our Sweet Bills Dreams.  Allen is a Great Ball of Fire and fun to watch the way he scrambles, but he needs to develop more as a passing threat to become That Guy.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 12/26/2018 at 11:08 PM, NewEra said:

 

 The cardinals OL is all backups.  All of our OL are backups.  It doesn’t matter that some started the season as starters.  The cards have a HoF WR and a very promising player in Kirk.  The Bills #1 wr was cut because he was so bad.  Our #2 WR was beaten out by a guy that was cut and then brought back weeks later.  All the other guys were cut by their teams.  We have by far the worst WRs in football.  

 

It’s a tossup based on which QB you like more.  In this thread, the Rosen fanboys say the cards are worse.  Allen fans say the billls have worse.  

 

Does it always have to come down to "Fanboys" or Cultists or what have you?

I mean, people can watch football and have an opinion on OL play and WR play and stuff that's not linked to their love (or not) of a QB.

I expect if I cared enough to do a deep dive into it, I could come up with one, but from my POV I think both QB are struggling with crap offensive support.  Fitz fading badly (alas) .  Kirk got IR'd in early Dec. 

 

It's kind of like arguing which stinks worse, dog poo or cat poo?  Opinions vary, but everyone surely agrees that they both stink.

 

 

 

 

[NewEra]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Does it always have to come down to "Fanboys" or Cultists or what have you?

I mean, people can watch football and have an opinion on OL play and WR play and stuff that's not linked to their love (or not) of a QB.

I expect if I cared enough to do a deep dive into it, I could come up with one, but from my POV I think both QB are struggling with crap offensive support.  Fitz fading badly (alas) .  Kirk got IR'd in early Dec. 

 

It's kind of like arguing which stinks worse, dog poo or cat poo?  Opinions vary, but everyone surely agrees that they both stink.

 

 

 

 

Which is what I said previously in this very thread.  Yet, some(one) refuses to acknowledge this being the case and has to call out every person that refuses his notion that the cardinals have the worst offensive supporting cast in the league.  

 

My opinion:  Fanboys dispute the same topic in the same thread over and over and over and over with multiple posters stating the same thing over and over and over.  

 

My apologies for calling someone pathetic multiple times.  It won’t happen again.  

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

42 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Which is what I said previously in this very thread.  Yet, some(one) refuses to acknowledge this being the case and has to call out every person that refuses his notion that the cardinals have the worst offensive supporting cast in the league.  

 

People do vary in how persistent and repetitive they are in promoting their opinions.  I probably err on the "overly persistent" side myself.   I try to offer new evidence or a different twist on an argument each time, but I know I get frustrated sometimes and just snark.

 

 

[Seventeen]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, passing was the topic of discussion.

 

It seemed to be generally acknowledged that a QB that is seen as more of a threat with his legs than his arm (eg Taylor) is not the franchise QB of our Sweet Bills Dreams.  Allen is a Great Ball of Fire and fun to watch the way he scrambles, but he needs to develop more as a passing threat to become That Guy.

 

Give him a cadre of good receivers and we'll see. I don't think Allen will sit around all off-season and do nothing a la Manziel. I think he'll be watching tape, working out and trying to improve his passing, maybe with Jordan Palmer again. 

[Norcalbillsfan]

On 12/26/2018 at 8:29 PM, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Not correct at all where they are down seven offensive lineman with all replacements playing in addition to a few WRs. 

Yes the Cardinals lost their  entire o line, but according to football outsiders that do in depth statistics, the Cardinals o line that are pretty much second stringers are performing better than the bills starters. And statistacly David Johnson (other than injury) has been much better than shady the past few seasons. And obviously Larry is better than any than any bills receivers and Christian Kirk has out performed almost all bills receivers in yards. Not saying the Cardinals are a bunch of all pros but the bills have maybe the least talent on offense in the NFL. 

According to football outsiders statistics as of 12/25

QB= Bills > Cardinals

RB = Bills<Cardinals

WR= Bills<Cardinals

TE = Bills>Cardinals ( croom, not clay)

Oline= Bills<Cardinals

Offense overall= Bills #31> Cardinals #32 (Josh Allen's rushing has saved the bills rushing stats)

[Doc]

Arizona has worse tight ends? Is that possible? 

[bobobonators]

Rosen is hot garbage. 

[GimmeSomeProcess]

Again, Allen’s comes up with another dynamic game. Sure it’s unconventional but he’s shown glimpses of being difference maker. Let’s see what ole Josh “sure his game sucked but did you see that one throw” Rosen can do 

[aceman_16]

I will ONLY add this... predraft "everyone" was saying that Rosen was "NFL ready" and "step in on day one and look the most polished." I think it has been the opposite of the QBs chosen in that draft. Rosen has looked like a major work in progress.

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, GimmeSomeProcess said:

Again, Allen’s comes up with another dynamic game. Sure it’s unconventional but he’s shown glimpses of being difference maker. Let’s see what ole Josh “sure his game sucked but did you see that one throw” Rosen can do 

And while marveling at Rosen's throw in which he got to take a nap in the pocket the same folks will obsess over every bad Allen throw.  Like today where even though he had less bad throws then TD's, there are people who are sure that those poor throws mean he's a bust!  Hey, ignore at all those TD's - that's a mirage what you need to be paying attention to is that pass that flew over the receivers head.  Yea, that's the ticket!  

 

Look I get it's way to early to toss Rosen under the bus.  Other QB's had struggled as much a he has only to have exceptional NFL careers.  And for sure he's playing on a dumpster fire of an offense.  But last April if you kept the QB's identity's hidden and laid out how their seasons went very few people would have picked the right QB to match the won/loss and offensive stats that each actually had.   

[thenorthremembers]

Allen accounted for five tds today.  Anyone who thinks he was bad needs to get a grip.