Shady and the Running Backs moving forward

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

26 minutes ago, billsredneck1 said:

i like the shady/ivory combo.  they are both great at catching anywhere.

 

Agreed  and those swing passes to the flat are nice at slowing up the defense and getting Allen settled  

 

 

[Chuck Wagon]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You're welcome to your opinion, but I'm puzzled to how you'd justify it with football arguments.

 

Bell

Elliott

Gurley

David Johnson

Kamara

Fournette

Melvin Gordon

Barkley

Kareem Hunt

Joe Mixon

McCaffery

 

That's 11 names all arguably better than Shady, the top 5 clearly better than him IMO.  That's not including names like Devonta Freeman, Jordan Howard, Dalvin Cook who are closer to Shady than some here would be willing to admit.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

24 minutes ago, No Place To Hyde said:

I would view Shady and Ivory more of a compliment to each other due to one running with power and the other more finesse. Keepa a defense off balance. Murphy can run either style imo and would be a good guy to sub in for either. Plus having some return duties/special team responsibilities I'd be more leery of Murphy getting burned out late in games.

 

Ivory looked solid this week.  I wouldn't take him out.  We also seemed to execute sweeps a lot better when we had dimarco in.  He only featured on a few plays, but he seemed solid.  We wanted to attack boundaries in this one.

 

I really liked dabolls game plan in this one.  Dimarco won't feature in every week, and it really reminds me of the way NE game plans.  They will always come in with a plan that changes week to week, and focuses on the specific matchup.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

He had a few runs that were blown up, but he was able to get back to the LOS.  I felt that was important because we look terrible when we're behind the sticks.  O-line had a few solid ones, but they really have to limit the negative ones. 

 

Ivory made a few plays in the passing game, as they attacked the man coverage with lots of pre-snap motion and getting backs in 1x1s on the outside.  But in all he grabbed us the few first downs in the 2nd half we needed in this one to ice the game.  They knew we were running and we were still able to execute fairly well.  

 

I'll wait until the all-22, but I'll be surprised if I agree that the O-line had a few solid ones.

If you're meaning this drive, color me under-impressed by 12 yards on 5 carries (setting aside the false start).  Do that against a team that isn't imploding and the result is a comeback against us.

[Shaw66]

53 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Keep in mind Ivory is averaged 2.8 ypc yesterday, which is tough to do if you're consistently getting 3-4 ypc.

 

I do know what I think you mean, though, which is that Ivory was at least making positive yardage consistently.    It's not a thing to love though.  I have trouble seeing what run blocking is doing in real time on televised footage, but Imma bet that the all-22 is going to show me what it showed last week:  the run blocking sucks.  There are no holes being opened. 

 

The difference between Ivory and Shady is that Shady does what top backs do - hesitates just a bit and waits for his blockers to open holes.  Only the holes never open.

Meanwhile Ivory plunges right in full throttle and grinds out the yards with his legs, which is why -1 or no gain for Shady becomes 1-3 yds for Ivory.

 

The real issue is to try to fix the run blocking.  It's only partly guys getting beat at the point of attack, there seems to be a lot of confusion about blocking assignments.

It's also in the first two games been totally ineffective cut blocking.  I saw at least 2 ineffective cut blocks yesterday.

 

Good analysis. What you didn't say but was the real point of what you wrote is that when the holes are there, Shady hits home runs and Ivery hits singles and doubles.  

 

Loved Shady's attitude on the sideline. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

Bell

Elliott

Gurley

David Johnson

Kamara

Fournette

Melvin Gordon

Barkley

Kareem Hunt

Joe Mixon

McCaffery

 

That's 11 names all arguably better than Shady, the top 5 clearly better than him IMO.  That's not including names like Devonta Freeman, Jordan Howard, Dalvin Cook who are closer to Shady than some here would be willing to admit.

 

By what criterion, other than "I listed them"?  That's what I mean by "football argument".  Don't just list me a bunch of names, dole some gouge on your criteria and why you feel they're better

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'll wait until the all-22, but I'll be surprised if I agree that the O-line had a few solid ones.

If you're meaning this drive, color me under-impressed by 12 yards on 5 carries (setting aside the false start).  Do that against a team that isn't imploding and the result is a comeback against us.

 

Lol good point - the 2nd half was kind of a blur and i was cooking burgers for some of it and trying to watch on my ipad.  

[PeterDude]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

By what criterion, other than "I listed them"?  That's what I mean by "football argument".  Don't just list me a bunch of names, dole some gouge on your criteria and why you feel they're better

 

I would agree with the list.  There are many factors, but mainly age and talent.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Good analysis. What you didn't say but was the real point of what you wrote is that when the holes are there, Shady hits home runs and Ivery hits singles and doubles.  

Loved Shady's attitude on the sideline. 

 

Oh, heck, sometimes even when the holes aren't there.  Shady had a nice 18 yd scamper he created for himself by bouncing outside, called back by a pretty ticky-tack holding call on Miller.   Though we got to give Ivory props for his 55 yd pass play yesterday.  That was a Home Run.

 

Aside: The more time I spend watching OL run blocking, the more I'm totally puzzled by when and why refs decide to call OL holding.  I saw one play with 2 blatant holds - defenders spun around and hauled to the ground from behind - and a clear face mask.  No call.

 

3 minutes ago, PeterDude said:

I would agree with the list.  There are many factors, but mainly age and talent.

 

Saying "talent" is not a football argument.  It simply calls into question what is the evaluation criteria you are using to make that statement?

I'm sorry, putting a bunch of names on a list and saying "they're better, cuz, talent" is weak sauce.

[Stank_Nasty]

11 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

Bell

Elliott

Gurley

David Johnson

Kamara

Fournette

Melvin Gordon

Barkley

Kareem Hunt

Joe Mixon

McCaffery

 

That's 11 names all arguably better than Shady, the top 5 clearly better than him IMO.  That's not including names like Devonta Freeman, Jordan Howard, Dalvin Cook who are closer to Shady than some here would be willing to admit.

so after the last 2 seasons of ranking 5th and 4th in scrimmage yds amongst backs he's all of a sudden worse than 11 guys after a short 2 games behind one of the worst lines in the nfl?

 

this is complete garbage. 

[Jerome007]

I have been saying for a while now to use Shady that way (as mentioned in original post). AND use some sets with both him and Ivory present, keep the defenses guessing!

 

Daboll actually used Ivory yesterday exactly as we suggest he'd use Shady so good progress. In the fist half. Second was more straight ahead pounding, and that what was needed.

 

I really loved the playcalling in the first half. At last! And it showed "zip it" type of plays is better suited for Allen's skills and mindset than "cute" plays. It was a good idea to use'em but now Daboll should know better how to use his star QB to cater to his strong points and limit his weaknesses.

 

And since TEs are plentiful and RBs a strength, use more sets as the Bears are doing. Not rocket science!

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, heck, sometimes even when the holes aren't there.  Shady had a nice 18 yd scamper he created for himself by bouncing outside, called back by a pretty ticky-tack holding call on Miller.   Though we got to give Ivory props for his 55 yd pass play yesterday.  That was a Home Run.

 

Aside: The more time I spend watching OL run blocking, the more I'm totally puzzled by when and why refs decide to call OL holding.  I saw one play with 2 blatant holds - defenders spun around and hauled to the ground from behind - and a clear face mask.  No call.

 

 

Saying "talent" is not a football argument.  It simply calls into question what is the evaluation criteria you are using to make that statement?

I'm sorry, putting a bunch of names on a list and saying "they're better, cuz, talent" is weak sauce.

 

Ivory made a nice play to get open on a scramble drill.  Our receivers need to improve on that aspect to help allen.

[Chuck Wagon]

17 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

so after the last 2 seasons of ranking 5th and 4th in scrimmage yds amongst backs he's all of a sudden worse than 11 guys after a short 2 games behind one of the worst lines in the nfl?

 

this is complete garbage. 

 

That's fine.  You are entitled to your opinion.  I'm entitled to mine.  History says take a ~24 year old RB who has shown success in the league over a 30 year old one.  Is it the line or is it Shady reaching the point where he's slowing down in his career? It will be tough to get an accurate read on that this year.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, Jerome007 said:

I have been saying for a while now to use Shady that way (as mentioned in original post). AND use some sets with both him and Ivory present, keep the defenses guessing!

 

Daboll actually used Ivory yesterday exactly as we suggest he'd use Shady so good progress. In the fist half. Second was more straight ahead pounding, and that what was needed.

 

I really loved the playcalling in the first half. At last! And it showed "zip it" type of plays is better suited for Allen's skills and mindset than "cute" plays. It was a good idea to use'em but now Daboll should know better how to use his star QB to cater to his strong points and limit his weaknesses.

 

And since TEs are plentiful and RBs a strength, use more sets as the Bears are doing. Not rocket science!

 

Yeah - i love that pistol set with backs on both sides and someone like ivory behind allen.  So many ways to attack with it.  If they load up heavy in the box you can motion shady wide and create a mismatch.  You can run triple option, straight speed option, RPOs, whatever you want really.  

[WhoTom]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Keep in mind Ivory is averaged 2.8 ypc yesterday, which is tough to do if you're consistently getting 3-4 ypc.

 

I do know what I think you mean, though, which is that Ivory was at least making positive yardage consistently.    It's not a thing to love though.  I have trouble seeing what run blocking is doing in real time on televised footage, but Imma bet that the all-22 is going to show me what it showed last week:  the run blocking sucks.  There are no holes being opened. 

 

The difference between Ivory and Shady is that Shady does what top backs do - hesitates just a bit and waits for his blockers to open holes.  Only the holes never open.

Meanwhile Ivory plunges right in full throttle and grinds out the yards with his legs, which is why -1 or no gain for Shady becomes 1-3 yds for Ivory.

 

The real issue is to try to fix the run blocking.  It's only partly guys getting beat at the point of attack, there seems to be a lot of confusion about blocking assignments.

It's also in the first two games been totally ineffective cut blocking.  I saw at least 2 ineffective cut blocks yesterday.

 

 

I agree, and that's a good reason to use Shady in the passing game.

 

One more reason: Shady has better hands than our #1 WR.

 

 

 

[RyanC883]

I love this idea.  Also, Shady has better hands than most of our WR's and TE's.  Our O-line is not good for a back like Shady, so get him in space and use him more lined-up wide.  15 targets a game.  

[1st&ten]

1 hour ago, Chuck Wagon said:

Shady + 4th round pick

for

Le'Veon + 6th round pick

 

 

Bell wants mega bucks----the highest paid running back in the NFL----the Bills are still working their way out of cap problems.

[Freddie's Dead]

I'm all for our RB's moving forward, and not moving backward like Reggie Bush.  

[Chuck Wagon]

30 minutes ago, 1st&ten said:

 

Bell wants mega bucks----the highest paid running back in the NFL----the Bills are still working their way out of cap problems.

 

I've got some oceanfront property here in Columbus to sell you....

 

They'll have the second most cap room in the league next season and 3 key expensive positions (QB / LT / CB) on very cheap deals.  Need to add talent at some point.

[ColoradoBills]

We will soon see how Daboll uses Shady going forward.

It might be as simple as when the safeties play up we see less of Shady.

When the safeties play back we see more of Shady.