Unnecessary Roughness Call on Tre' White ?

[zow2]

That was a terrible call.  And I love Tre White.  What an awesome player. But he’s going to be the next great Bills DB to skip away when he’s a free agent someday 

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, zow2 said:

That was a terrible call.  And I love Tre White.  What an awesome player. But he’s going to be the next great Bills DB to skip away when he’s a free agent someday 

 

Probably not.  He'll be worth re-signing.

[RaoulDuke79]

On 9/23/2018 at 5:21 PM, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

So basically no tackling. Had he not made the tackle it would have been a catch. The WR gets paid to make catches and the DB gets paid to stop him. F off NFL.

[Doc]

Just watched the play again.  In the original camera angle of the play, you can see that Tre's helmet did not contact Thielen's.  And a flag was only thrown after Thielen started whining for one.  All the replays appear to show the helmets hitting, but it's perspective.  And a tell is that Tre's helmet doesn't move when Thielen's does.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

Its sad to see them call this defenseless receiver. If this receiver is defenseless then all offensive players are defenseless at all times

[NYGPopgun10]

Anything to penalize the defense in Roger's soft league. The roughing the passer penalties are worse. There's no concept when it comes to interpretation of what should be a 15-yard penalty and what shouldn't. Clay Matthews has been victimized three times. All clean plays. May as well make it flag football. 

[NoSaint]

21 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Im a big proponent of the new helmet rule, but this was a bad call. His head was up and he didnt lead with it. There was some helmet-to-helmet contact, but given the form it was not dangerous or egregious.

 

Bad call by the refs that luckily didnt affect the outcome.

 

But as noted this isn’t the new helmet rule this is the defenseless receiver rule. 

 

Its possible docs right and it was a weird angle looking like helmets hit but when a receiver is making a catch you’ve got to go a little Lower typically. You can hit him as hard as you want there but if helmets touch it’ll be a flag the overwhelming majority of times 

12 hours ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

Its sad to see them call this defenseless receiver. If this receiver is defenseless then all offensive players are defenseless at all times

 

The guys looking at a ball with his hands out and feet off the ground. He still has one foot up as the hit arrives. He’s very limited in being able to protect himself from injury in that spot. An established runner is totally different. It wasn’t as horrific as some hits but as flags go it was generally in line with calls the last several years

[Coach Tuesday]

I think the issue is the celebrating.  Almost any time you see a player stand up and celebrate after a big hit (which White did), there's a flag thrown.  It's nonsense, the NFL has become a joke, but if I was coaching these guys I'd tell them not to make any waves after a big tackle.

 

Also, did anyone else notice in last night's game that Artie Burns' fumble-causing hit was helmet-first?  The announcers (who were awful) didn't pick up on it - should've been a flag.  Was a big turning point in the game.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Coach Tuesday

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

 

But as noted this isn’t the new helmet rule this is the defenseless receiver rule. 

 

Its possible docs right and it was a weird angle looking like helmets hit but when a receiver is making a catch you’ve got to go a little Lower typically. You can hit him as hard as you want there but if helmets touch it’ll be a flag the overwhelming majority of times 

 

The guys looking at a ball with his hands out and feet off the ground. He still has one foot up as the hit arrives. He’s very limited in being able to protect himself from injury in that spot. An established runner is totally different. It wasn’t as horrific as some hits but as flags go it was generally in line with calls the last several years

 

So he is limited in defending himself, does that mean you are not allowed to tackle?   On that play, given where the catch was relative to the first down marker, it was critical to tackle him immediately.  Is that not allowed?  What does the NFL expect the defender to do in that situation?

23 hours ago, MJS said:

 

The Kelvin Benjamin TD against the Pats last year went to review. They reversed it, getting it wrong. No, I think it will always be a part of the game.

 

That play was really close, I can see arguments both ways but given it was a TD on the field I think it should have stood.  I think people forget what things were like before replay.  There were cases where a defender went for an INT, the ball bounced on the ground during the catch which would always be reversed today.   Before replay it was left as called, an INT, possible game changing.   The NFL does get the obvious calls right (for the most part) now vs they did not before replay.  The ability to go frame by frame in HD makes the gray area calls still controversial.  But all in all, replay has improved the quality of getting calls right by a lot even though there is still a lot of controversy.

[That_Guy]

they should put pressure sensors throughout the uniform and when they register an impact that's greater than the predetermined threshold on the player of interest that's getting hit (QB, WR, TE, etc) it sends an electric shock to the hitting player's cup.  no flag, no yardage or replaying downs, just a jolt to the balls of the hitter.  that'll stop hard hits real quick.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

I still believe the easiest way to eliminate these huge dangerous hits is to shrink the equipment, get rid of the helmets shrink the shoulder pads. 

[Real McClappy]

9 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

I still believe the easiest way to eliminate these huge dangerous hits is to shrink the equipment, get rid of the helmets shrink the shoulder pads. 

Screw it just go to midgets.

 

This defenseless WR call is killer for text book tackling and how players were always told to play. This basically is a turnover granted by the refs back to Minny. 

 

The unnecessary roughness calls on QB's are a huge problem right now in the league destroying the game. When QB's that are benefitting from the calls are calling BS the league needs to listen but are not at this point.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24789422/ben-roethlisberger-pittsburgh-steelers-questions-rash-roughing-passer-flags

[JESSEFEFFER]

The player has possession with his arms down and the ball tucked.  The contact was initially shoulder to shoulder then slightly shoulder to helmet after the whiplash action of the initial hit.  The catch was right at the stick and its a first down if the receiver is allowed to just  lunge forward as he would have done if he had a little more time.   Tre did everything he needed to do to prevent the first down.

 

Receivers that leap and do not catch the ball were always the textbook definition of defenseless.  I think of the Tatum hit on Darryl Stingley.  In those days DBs looked to make those hits just to send a message and plant the element of fear in  a WR's heart.  The NFL needed to get those kinds of hits out of the game.  Receivers with the ball tucked and trying to get a first down are not any kind of defenseless.    Sorry to see defenders getting penalized and fined for doing their job well.  Unnecessary roughness vs.necessary roughness as was stated earlier.

[NoSaint]

14 hours ago, mattynh said:

 

So he is limited in defending himself, does that mean you are not allowed to tackle?   On that play, given where the catch was relative to the first down marker, it was critical to tackle him immediately.  Is that not allowed?  What does the NFL expect the defender to do in that situation?

 

 

I feel like I’ve addressed this very directly several times.

 

yes. Yes you can tackle him. You can hit him incredibly hard even. But if your helmet hits his helmet in that span of completing the catch it’s likely a flag. 

[Lfod]

Tre White is amazing. I will take the flag.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Lfod

[Domdab99]

as well all know, this was a bad, bad call.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

On 9/24/2018 at 9:29 AM, mattynh said:

So basically there is not aggressively tackling a guy to stop him from getting a first down anymore.   If a guy catches it before the sticks and his momentum is going forward you just have to let him have the first down.

 

Unless you can take his knees out. 

On 9/24/2018 at 9:30 AM, R Y G A R said:

They should let qualified ex-NFL players be referees. I think they would seriously do a very good job. They would see that for what it was, a great football play. Same thing on the Clay Matthews' sacks. Like Steve Smith, he'd be perfect and he wouldn't take $%@! from anyone ?.

Steve smith would call pass interference every single play!

 

Biased 

[Ol Dirty B]

It's the league trying to save face. It is a bad call either explanation.

[Rochesterfan]

On 9/23/2018 at 5:40 PM, mannc said:

I disagree with your premise that phantom, garbage calls like this are an inevitable part of the game.  They can be largely gotten rid of by expanding instant replay.

 

 

Just like the fumble when JA clearly was shuttling the ball to the WR on a shuttle pass.

 

Replay does very little and I doubt either the Tre White or the Matthews call gets overturned. 

 

They are staying with the call call on the field as much as possible.  

 

The would use the excuse their helmets hit - therefore confirmed.  Matthews did land on the QB - Confirmed. 

 

Even if the calls are wrong.

20 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

Screw it just go to midgets.

 

This defenseless WR call is killer for text book tackling and how players were always told to play. This basically is a turnover granted by the refs back to Minny. 

 

The unnecessary roughness calls on QB's are a huge problem right now in the league destroying the game. When QB's that are benefitting from the calls are calling BS the league needs to listen but are not at this point.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/24789422/ben-roethlisberger-pittsburgh-steelers-questions-rash-roughing-passer-flags

 

Yet overall league viewership numbers are up - may kill long term, but right now the league has more viewers than ever and QBs are healthy.

[Matt_In_NH]

9 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

I feel like I’ve addressed this very directly several times.

 

yes. Yes you can tackle him. You can hit him incredibly hard even. But if your helmet hits his helmet in that span of completing the catch it’s likely a flag. 

 

Since you seem to be an expert lets have a discussion based on the rule.  The rule is unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player as the NFL tweeted, not the new helmet to helmet deal.  I dont see how that rule applies to this play.

 

Here is the content of the the rule with the link below.  Lets pay special attention to the bolded and especially the bolded and underlined Note 1. 

 

First you are talking about helmet to helmet contact, the rule has a note that says "Note 1: The provisions of (b) do not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or helmet in the course of a conventional tackle or block on an opponent."  I am not sure what (b) is referring to but this clearly says incidental contact by mask or helmet is NOT prohibited, isn't that what happened here?

 

The rule talks about a player initiating "unnecessary contact" against a player in a defenseless position.  I would describe White's contact a necessary, not unnecessary.  He needed (it was necessary) to tackle the receiver and prevent a first down.  The first section defines a defenseless posture, lets agree that the receiver was defenseless, by paragraph 1.2.

 

Then we have to go to section 2 which defines the prohibited contact against a defenseless player.   Section 2.1 talks about "foricibly hitting" the players head.    No way I think that happened, the heads touched, not forcibly.  Section 2.2 talks about lowering the head, that does not apply, White clearly had his head to the side to prevent forcible head to head contact.  Section 2.3 talks about launching himself.  Both of Whites feet come off the turn as he is finishing the tackle but he did not "launch".  What part of section 2 did White violate?

 

It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture.

1. Players in a defenseless posture are:
   1. A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass (passing posture)
   2. A receiver attempting to catch a pass who has not had time to clearly become a runner. If the player is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player
   3. The intended receiver of a pass in the action during and immediately following an interception or potential interception. If the player is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player.

      Note: Violations of this provision will be enforced after the interception, and the intercepting team will maintain possession.

   4. A runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped
   5. A kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air
   6. A player on the ground
   7. A kicker/punter during the kick or during the return (Also see Article 6(h) for additional restrictions against a kicker/punter)
   8. A quarterback at any time after a change of possession (Also see Article 9(f) for additional restrictions against a quarterback after a change of possession)
   9. A player who receives a “blindside” block when the path of the offensive blocker is toward or parallel to his own end line.
   10. A player who is protected from an illegal crackback block (see Article 2)
   11. The offensive player who attempts a snap during a Field Goal attempt or a Try Kick
2. Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:
   1. forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, even if the initial contact is lower than the player’s neck, and regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenselessplayer by encircling or grasping him
   2. lowering the head and making forcible contact with the crown or ”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the defenselessplayer’s body
   3. illegally launching into a defenseless opponent. It is an illegal launch if a player (i) leaves both feet prior to contact to spring forward and upward into his opponent, and (ii) uses any part of his helmet to initiate forcible contact against any part of his opponent’s body. (This does not apply to contact against a runner, unless the runner is still considered to be a defenseless player, as defined in Article 7.)

Note 1: The provisions of (b) do not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or helmet in the course of a conventional tackle or block on an opponent.

Note 2: A player who initiates contact against a defenseless opponent is responsible for avoiding an illegal act. This includes illegal contact that may occur during the process of attempting to dislodge the ball from an opponent. A standard of strict liability applies for any contact against a defenselessopponent, even if the opponent is an airborne player who is returning to the ground or whose body position is otherwise in motion, and irrespective of any acts by the defenseless opponent, such as ducking his head or curling up his body in anticipation of contact.

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/defenseless-player/

 

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by mattynh