SI - Josh Allen, Thrown to the Wolves

[Tenhigh]

5 hours ago, BillsVet said:

Marv Levy said something long ago to the effect of if you listen to the fans, you'll wind up sitting next to them in the stands.  The writer of that article didn't consider that apparently.

 

 

This.  I was set up to fail multiple times in the military and learned better through adversity than having an easy or only slightly challenging situation.  I think Allen's been dealing with plenty of adversity, professionally speaking, since he was a kid. Getting to a D-1 school, succeeding there without a top supporting cast, and then being drafted demonstrates this. He's got a bigger challenge now, and while it's not under ideal circumstances, it's not a fait accompli that he'll fail because his predecessors did.

 

Besides, the idea that he'll fail because Manuel, Edwards, and Losman did is just Bills fans conditioned to pessimism. It's a defensive mechanism if things go wrong and we want to say we're right. I've got more faith in that kid that anyone Buffalo's drafted at QB in a long time.

I feel like I am in the upside down....

[Shaw66]

12 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

How is it nonsense if Manning, Aikman didn't start on bad teams and were just playing poorly to begin with? Aikman went 0-11 because he threw 9 TDs, 18 INTs @ a 52.9 completion percentage. 

 

Nobody is twisting the stats as they are the reality! As is the fact that Aikman was only sacked 19 times all season. That means he had time to throw all season and was simply bad at doing so or no one to throw to. No idea where you are getting stats from but the reality is that 89 year the Cowboys had 513 passing attempts vs 355 rushing attempts. It also didn't help that David Shula was his OC. During their SB years the OC was Norv Turner, Zampese with Switzer as HC. 

 

 

It's my contention that if Steve Young had stayed on that bad 2-14 1985 Tampa Bay team that he would have never amounted to anything. Much less win super bowls or be a pro bowler/all pro. His completion percentage at TB was 52.2% with 3 TDs, 8 INTs his first year in 5 games. His second season at TB he went 2-12 with a 53.7% completion percentage 8 TDs, 13 INTs. As it was it took a few years of sitting and learning behind Joe Montana with Bill Walsh as his HC before he started playing well. 

 

I'd say Steve Young is a perfect example of a good to great QB starting on a bad team and playing poorly, developing poorly. 

 

Another QB is Jim Plunkett who played for the NE Patriots on bad teams for 5 years, went to SF for two years and never won more than 7 games in 7 seasons. Went to a great Oakland Raiders team and sat for a season then went on to win two super bowls on a great Raiders team. Again it's my contention that had Plunkett stayed with that bad NE Patriots team he would have never amounted to anything, much less win two super bowls! 

 

 

First, Aikman played 11 games, attempted 293 passes and was sacked 19 times.   And you're right, he sucked.   So did their other quarterbacks.   The team sucked, too.  Offense was horrible, defense was horrible.  

 

Second, so now your point is what, that good rookies on bad teams shouldn't play until they get good coaches?    Huh?   So Allen should ask to sit until his contract runs out so he can pick a QB coach?    

 

It's very simple.  The Bills don't have a great array of talent, and they have a very good prospect at QB.   What you do with a very good prospect on a not so good team is you play him.   There is nothing to be gained by sitting him.   

[Luka]

6 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

Yet another moron saying Tyrod “lead the Bills to the playoffs.”

 

 

 

Lots of casual fans that don't actually watch the games. A box score, couple news articles, they get the gist.

[TheElectricCompany]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

 Allen will be a better QB at the beginning of his second season than Mahomes at the beginning of his. 

 

You must have hit your head on the bathroom mirror. 

Lay down and take a nap. 

 

[metzelaars_lives]

What is the debate here?  Like anything else in the world there is a spectrum of good to bad.  On the spectrum of situations to be thrust into to start one's NFL career, Patrick Mahomes has had as ideal a situation as a QB could possibly have and Josh Allen has had as not ideal a situation as any QB could possibly have.  That's just reality.  These "win one for the Gipper" speeches about never giving up and not making excuses have nothing to do with anything.  This shouldn't be controversial.  If we were the same speed and running a 100 yard sprint and I started on the 40 yard line and you started in the end zone, I would have a better chance of winning the race.  Is that controversial, or is it like, you're just gonna eat more Wheaties than me and will yourself to victory?  You people have watched Rudy one too many times I feel like. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[Augie]

6 hours ago, Clyde Smith said:

Mark Shepard is probably a TBD message board member. Ok dude, who are you on here lol?

 

We could have a poll, but there must be some limit to how many options you can have. Maybe we can do it as a fill in the blank? 

[VW82]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I think this is nonsense.  

 

It's harder to succeed if you start for a bad team?  Yes, in that season, it's harder to succeed.  But there's no evidence that it's harder to be good in your fifth season if your first season is with a bad team.   I mentioned Steve Young, who's a good case in point.   He didn't seem to have any trouble overcoming starting his career on a bad team.  

 

Who says Allen isn't ready?   Does he look like he doesn't know what he's doing?  No.  Has he taken any serious hits?   No.   

 

There are probably 10 teams in the league whose offensive line is as bad as Buffalo's.  I don't see any teams benching their QBs because they're afraid they'll get injured.   

 

QB PTSD.  Nonsense.   Russell Wilson has been a league leader in sacks since starting as a rookie.   He hasn't been beaten up, he doesn't have PTSD, he doesn't do anything expect play great.   

 

This is all just nonsense.   Put the guy on the field and let him play.   He held his own Sunday, and there is no reason to believe that he won't improve as the season progresses.   He'll make mistakes like other rookies, he'll get hit like other quarterbacks, and he'll play football.   

 

You can say it's nonsense all you want, but there a lot of really smart football people out there who seem to think it's not. Also, common sense would suggest throwing a kid into a job before he's ready might risk his confidence (self and coworkers) if he sinks rather than swims early. That goes for any job, not just football. Perhaps you're being a little dismissive here.

 

Look at the best QBs in the NFL over the last 10 years: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Eli, Rivers...now Mahomes, Goff. They all waited to start. All success stories. Some guys like Manning and Ryan and Wilson started right away and found success, but they also won their starting jobs in camp and showed they were ready. There's no perfect, one size fits all solution but it's hard to argue with the results of the guys who weren't initially ready and waited. Also, Steve DeBerg started the first 11 games in Young's rookie year. He got to wait. 

 

Who says Allen wasn't ready? McDermott and Allen. Allen said the preseason was too fast for him after this start vs. Cinci, and McD said it by giving the job to Peterman after a three month long battle. 

 

Again, I'm not saying anything will happen. It's about risk. We're exposing Allen to increased risk that something might happen (i.e. he gets hurt, loses his confidence, team loses its confidence in him). He made some decisions in that Chargers game which exposed him to taking huge shots, particularly the keep near the endzone in the 3rd q (to say nothing of all the missed protections where rushers got free shots on him). BTW that's exactly how Wentz got injured. Being inexperienced, and naive, and trying to do just a little too much. Young players are going to make mistakes whether they're first or second year players, but it's not completely insane to suggest that perhaps guys who have waited and learned a little longer or have better talent around when they do play won't be as prone to messing up and getting hurt. 

 

The QB eye level stuff after taking a bunch of hits isn't nonsense. It's common sense.   

Edited September 19, 2018 by VW82

[Augie]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

First, Aikman played 11 games, attempted 293 passes and was sacked 19 times.   And you're right, he sucked.   So did their other quarterbacks.   The team sucked, too.  Offense was horrible, defense was horrible.  

 

Second, so now your point is what, that good rookies on bad teams shouldn't play until they get good coaches?    Huh?   So Allen should ask to sit until his contract runs out so he can pick a QB coach?    

 

It's very simple.  The Bills don't have a great array of talent, and they have a very good prospect at QB.   What you do with a very good prospect on a not so good team is you play him.   There is nothing to be gained by sitting him.   

 

Aren’t you afraid he’ll pull a Vontae Davis?

 

 

 

Too soon? 

[Nihilarian]

31 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

First, Aikman played 11 games, attempted 293 passes and was sacked 19 times.   And you're right, he sucked.   So did their other quarterbacks.   The team sucked, too.  Offense was horrible, defense was horrible.  

 

Second, so now your point is what, that good rookies on bad teams shouldn't play until they get good coaches?    Huh?   So Allen should ask to sit until his contract runs out so he can pick a QB coach?    

 

It's very simple.  The Bills don't have a great array of talent, and they have a very good prospect at QB.   What you do with a very good prospect on a not so good team is you play him.   There is nothing to be gained by sitting him.   

It's not just the coaches as it's more about the supporting cast around him this year.  

 

Of all the QB prospects for this year the one QB I wanted the Bills to draft was Josh Allen, Metz wanted him also. I'm happy the Bills drafted the kid.

 

I never said Allen should sit because the alternative in Peterman is he is useless. A better question is why Peterman is still even on the roster. Why hasn't Beane brought in a veteran QB to help show Allen the ropes. 

 

My problem is I'm mad as hell at Beane that he didn't do a better job of surrounding Allen with better talent. There is still the waiver wire, trade deadline and things a GM could do to bolster the current team so Allen survives this season. I don't want to be reading at the end of the year that he sucked because he sucked from the start! 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Nihilarian

[Shaw66]

24 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

 

 

My problem is I'm mad as hell at Beane that he didn't do a better job of surrounding Allen with better talent. There is still the waiver wire, trade deadline and things a GM could do to bolster the current team so Allen survives this season. I don't want to be reading at the end of the year that he sucked because he sucked from the start! 

 

 

That's for a different thread.   

 

This thread is about Allen.

[wiskibreth]

2 hours ago, metzelaars_lives said:

I know it's in the article.  Again, he is my brother.  And yes, I can provide a link to a deadspin article from 10/5/2015 that clearly shows my brothers and their tailgating crew in the video.  In the article, it certainly sounds as if the writer hadn't seen anything like it before.  I am a pretty avid Bills fan and I can tell you that that video went viral and at the time, I hadn't seen it before.  So yes, please provide a link for evidence of table smashing prior to 10/5/2015 and you win.

Who said he wouldn't?

I'm just saying that I don't think Allen himself thinks he's being thrown tot he wolves...  so who gives a crap what a sportswriter thinks?

[Shaw66]

30 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

You can say it's nonsense all you want, but there a lot of really smart football people out there who seem to think it's not. Also, common sense would suggest throwing a kid into a job before he's ready might risk his confidence (self and coworkers) if he sinks rather than swims early. That goes for any job, not just football. Perhaps you're being a little dismissive here.

 

Look at the best QBs in the NFL over the last 10 years: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Eli, Rivers...now Mahomes, Goff. They all waited to start. All success stories. Some guys like Manning and Ryan and Wilson started right away and found success, but they also won their starting jobs in camp and showed they were ready. There's no perfect, one size fits all solution but it's hard to argue with the results of the guys who weren't initially ready and waited. Also, Steve DeBerg started the first 11 games in Young's rookie year. He got to wait. 

 

Who says Allen wasn't ready? McDermott and Allen. Allen said the preseason was too fast for him after this start vs. Cinci, and McD said it by giving the job to Peterman after a three month long battle. 

 

Again, I'm not saying anything will happen. It's about risk. We're exposing Allen to increased risk that something might happen (i.e. he gets hurt, loses his confidence, team loses its confidence in him). He made some decisions in that Chargers game which exposed him to taking huge shots, particularly the keep near the endzone in the 3rd q (to say nothing of all the missed protections where rushers got free shots on him). BTW that's exactly how Wentz got injured. Being inexperienced, and naive, and trying to do just a little too much. Young players are going to make mistakes whether they're first or second year players, but it's not completely insane to suggest that perhaps guys who have waited and learned a little longer or have better talent around when they do play won't be as prone to messing up and getting hurt. 

 

The QB eye level stuff after taking a bunch of hits isn't nonsense. It's common sense.   

First paragraph:  Ther is not one example, including Derek Carr, who people can agree had his career ruined by starting early.  

 

Second paragraph:  So Manning and Ryan and Wilson and Deshaun Watson all had success starting early,.  So what's you're point?  That Allen can't be like them?

 

Third paragraph:  When McD and Allen say Allen isn't ready, they mean they'd like for him to have learned more before he started.   NO ONE is ready when they start in their first couple of years.   

 

Fourth paragraph:  This stuff about him getting hurt is indeed nonsense.  Allen didn't take any more hits or expose himself in ways that other quarterbacks don't.   He's just playing football.  His offensive line isn't great, but he isn't getting hit more than a lot of other QBs.  

 

So agasin I ask, what's your point.  Are you saying that if you're the HC, you wouldn't play Allen?   

[metzelaars_lives]

8 minutes ago, wiskibreth said:

I'm just saying that I don't think Allen himself thinks he's being thrown tot he wolves...  so who gives a crap what a sportswriter thinks?

And the Bills think they can beat the Vikings on Sunday.  Me and the sportwriters think they won't.  Do you think they will?

Edited September 19, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[wiskibreth]

12 minutes ago, metzelaars_lives said:

And the Bills think they can beat the Vikings on Sunday.  Me and the sportwriters think they won't.  Do you think they will?

I certainly hope they think that way, and they probably won't win, but I'll still root for 'em anyway. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by wiskibreth

[HuSeYiN_NYC]

We can read and write til our eyes and fingers hurt but the only reality is what we see on Sundays and what I saw on Sunday was improvement. It was not a good game obviously but Allen played better than he did in week 1.

 

Let's see if he learns from his mistakes against the Vikings. Tough position to be in but I get the sense that Allen isn't "thrown to the wolves", rather I would call it, best way to learn.

 

If he shows improvement with this horrible O-line and WR group, just imagine what he will do with a better line and receivers. 

 

I don't know much about the ins and outs of footwork and release and blah blah blah. All i know is recognizing character, toughness and heart and Allen has all that. I'm pulling for him to succeed. I DO wish they could have a veteran QB presence for him but even if they don't, i get the feeling that he's smart enough to learn without one (with the current coaches showing and teaching him in the film room).

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Just so many things.  It was Manuel's first game.  And you are throwing out all sorts of straw men everywhere.  Who said Josh Allen wouldn't have "asked for" this opportunity?  I'm sure he's very excited.  Who said Allen won't have an opportunity over the course of his career to prove whether or not he is a franchise QB?  Who said anything that contradicts your whole motivational poster statement about succeeding?  Look, this doesn't have to be a debate: apples to apples, who has been put in a more ideal situation to succeed, Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen?  It's a pretty straightforward question.  Who has a better chance of winning more games, Mike McCarthy or whoever the Cardinals coach is?  This tough guy, "no excuses" talk is hysterical.  Why can't you just acknowledge reality?

WHO SAID THAT?!?  STOP WITH THE STRAW MAN BS!!

 

Straw man you’re the one who started argueing with me.  And you’ve puked straw all over this thread...  

 

No coaching? there are 27 gaddam coaches on the Bills staff. 

 

no online?- there are a bunch of them I checked the roster. he had lots of time to throw several times. He needs to also learn how to call out protection and get the ball out faster. 

 

 WRs that can’t Separate? - look at the cover 1 analysis, guys are open all over the place. 

 

Allen also has the luxury of zero expectations for this team meanwhile the chiefs are expected to close by end for a Super Bowl.  How’s mahomes gonna deal with the standard andy Reid team implosion coming before mid season? 

 

Allen will go to canton if he has it in him. But it’s up to him. 

[Charles Romes]

7 hours ago, No Place To Hyde said:

Well, if you draw up a situation for ANY rookie QB to come into this is not a place that screams "mold a young QB"

 

-No vet QB on roster to help in film room

-Culley the QB coach that specializes in WRs

-Daboll no track record of developing a QB

-Horrible oline in front of him

-Not good weapons around him

-Defense minded Head Coach

 

I do think however Allen is going to be a good one. One thing I think works in his favor is he's playing the Chargers, Vikings and other top defenses right away. Getting his feet wet against a tsunami so to speak.

 

2nd half of the year I can really see him slow the game down against the "middle of the pack" defenses and start to shine.

 

 

-No vet QB on roster to help in film room

-Culley the QB coach that specializes in WRs

-Daboll no track record of developing a QB

-Horrible oline in front of him

-Not good weapons around him

-Defense minded Head Coach

 

 

 

When you look at everything he's up against it kind of remarkable that he has looked as decent as he has!  

[metzelaars_lives]

9 minutes ago, wiskibreth said:

I certainly hope they think that way, and they probably won't win, but I'll still root for 'em anyway. 

Ok well I certainly don’t think Josh Allen is treating this opportunity like he’s being thrown to the wolves, but he is, and I’m definitely rooting for him anyway.

[VW82]

27 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

First paragraph:  Ther is not one example, including Derek Carr, who people can agree had his career ruined by starting early.  

 

Second paragraph:  So Manning and Ryan and Wilson and Deshaun Watson all had success starting early,.  So what's you're point?  That Allen can't be like them?

 

Third paragraph:  When McD and Allen say Allen isn't ready, they mean they'd like for him to have learned more before he started.   NO ONE is ready when they start in their first couple of years.   

 

Fourth paragraph:  This stuff about him getting hurt is indeed nonsense.  Allen didn't take any more hits or expose himself in ways that other quarterbacks don't.   He's just playing football.  His offensive line isn't great, but he isn't getting hit more than a lot of other QBs.  

 

So agasin I ask, what's your point.  Are you saying that if you're the HC, you wouldn't play Allen?   

 

I think it's unfair to compare Allen to Manning and Ryan and Wilson, all of whom showed they were better prepared to start coming into their rookie seasons. I also think it's unfair to compare him to guys like Cam or Watson who had better athletic ability to help them overcome the steep learning curve of being an NFL QB. 

 

We just fundamentally disagree on the fourth paragraph, I guess. Again, I think when you're so green that you can't diagnose the rush pre-snap or get through your progressions on time it's going to expose you to more hits. Also, putting him in a bunch of read options where he feels the need to keep and make a play (because it's not going so well when he drops back to pass) is also exposing him to a higher risk of injury. He's a big kid and a better athlete than I thought, but I'm not sure that's the best way to develop him. 

 

At this stage, we have to play Allen. That road got crossed the moment McD announced he was starting. We dropped the ball not coming into camp with a better QB situation which would have allowed him more time to learn. I think those first 6-8 weeks are invaluable for a rookie QB to see how a vet prepares, game plans, debriefs, corrects for the next week, etc. But yeah, they shouldn't change anything now. It would be a tough vote of no confidence. Have to just hope he overcomes the tough spot he's been put in. Despite the tone of my posts, I'm rooting for him.

Edited September 19, 2018 by VW82

[Shaw66]

28 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

I think it's unfair to compare Allen to Manning and Ryan and Wilson, all of whom showed they were better prepared to start coming into their rookie seasons. I also think it's unfair to compare him to guys like Cam or Watson who had better athletic ability to help them overcome the steep learning curve of being an NFL QB. 

 

 

I'm not comparing Allen to anyone.   I've been arguing against the idea that starting Allen now might ruin or harm his development or something.   The people I named weren't ruined by starting early in their careers.  

 

And why not compare him to Newton and Watson?   He's already shown comparable size, arm strength, running ability and ability to avoid sacks and take hits.   

 

Fundamentally, I think I'm here arguing with people because I think Allen's already demonstrated Hall of Fame potential.   He isn't playing like a Hall of Famer, but most Hall of Famers didn't play like it in their rookie seasons.   But size, arm strength, instincts in the pocket, leadership, character, he's checking all the boxes.   So I just don't get why people are moaning and groaning about the current situation.   

 

I went to the game Sunday thinking the Bills probably would lose.   I didn't care.   I wanted to see Allen, and I wasn't at all disappointed.   He looks nothing any of the failed QBs of the past 15 years.   He's better than all of them in all respects, except that he doesn't have more courage than FItz.   Equal maybe, but not more.   I'm excited about him and excited he's playing.   I think by midseason the media and everyone else will be taking notice of him.   And I think that the Bills will be much better on offense then than they are now.   QB is the one guy who can make everyone else better, and as Allen gets his feet wet I think he's going to do just that.    I think everyone will be surprised how much better the Bills receivers look in November.