SI - Josh Allen, Thrown to the Wolves

[oldmanfan]

4 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Did I really need to mention more than the one the article mentions? 

 

You don't watch football enough to know how many QBs the Cleveland Browns have drafted in the first round in their history to see that *nearly all of them have ended up on the scrap heap? Really? The entire league is littered with failed QBs that went to bad teams...oldmanfan...

 

 

Was it that?  Or were they just bad?  

[Nihilarian]

Bottom line is this team needs to fix the defense so the offense isn't starting off in a hole every game. 

 

Then they need to get the run game working to help take pressure off this rookie QB, control the clock and keep the downs, distance in manageable situations.

 

The team needs to fix the offensive line because the Chargers best pass rusher didn't even play in this past game and yet couldn't even block Ingram successfully. 

 

Shady McCoy is the best play on offense and the coaches need to find ways to get him the ball in space. 

 

We all have seen some signs that Josh Allen could be "the one" who becomes that elusive franchise QB for the Buffalo Bills. And if he is the one he will still need a far better supporting cast then is currently around him. 

[Peter]

5 hours ago, No Place To Hyde said:

Well, if you draw up a situation for ANY rookie QB to come into this is not a place that screams "mold a young QB"

 

-No vet QB on roster to help in film room

-Culley the QB coach that specializes in WRs

-Daboll no track record of developing a QB

-Horrible oline in front of him

-Not good weapons around him

-Defense minded Head Coach

 

 

You may just discombobulate some on this board with your logical summary of why Josh is not in the best situation.

[metzelaars_lives]

3 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

You may just discombobulate some on this board with your logical summary of why Josh is not in the best situation.

Exactly.  Excuses are for losers.  There’s no reason Austin Peay can’t beat Alabama, they just don’t want it bad enough.  Anyone who thinks Austin Peay isn’t in an ideal situation if they go to play Alabama, isn’t successful in life.

Edited September 19, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[VW82]

Although I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that young QBs will fail in bad situations, it definitely makes it harder on them and exposes them to risks you maybe wouldn't be so concerned with in better situations. 

 

To me, Ben and Mahomes are great examples of doing it the right way. Mahomes got to sit for a year and learn and slowly win over the confidence of his teammates so that when he finally got his shot he was ready. Ben got thrown in the fire early because of injury, but the Steelers had a championship team around him and only asked him to do things he was capable of. 

 

Bills just don't have that. We're playing him too early and asking him to do things he isn't ready for. Because of this teams are able to really key him on him. Allen seems like a tough kid so he should be ok but he's liable to get hurt like this. The biggest concern is will he get so consumed with all these rushers beating him up that he starts to lower his eye level as a habit (to protect himself). Once that happens, it's over. QB PTSD. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by VW82

[metzelaars_lives]

1 minute ago, VW82 said:

Although I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that young QBs will fail in bad situations, it definitely makes it harder on them and exposes them to risks you maybe wouldn't be so concerned with in better situations. 

 

To me, Ben and Mahomes are great examples of doing it the right way. Mahomes got to sit for a year and learn and slowly win over the confidence of his teammates so that when he finally got his shot he was ready. Ben got thrown in the fire early because of injury, but the Steelers had a championship team around him and only asked him to do things he was capable of. 

 

Bills just don't have that. We're playing him too early and asking him to do things he isn't ready for. Because of this teams are able to key him on him. Allen seems like a tough kid so he should be ok but he's liable to get hurt like this. The biggest concern is will he get so consumed with all these rushers beating him up that he starts to lower his eye level as a habit (to protect himself). Once that happens, it's over. QB PTSD. 

So you’re saying Josh Allen’s situation isn’t ideal?  Oh you too must not be very successful.

[oldmanfan]

I would be more worried if he had the deer in the headlights look last week.  He didn't.  And although my eyes see differently, three other observers who see more film than I do say a good percentage of sacks were not due to poor O line play.

 

So I hope as things progress, he sees thing more clearly and gets the ball out quicker.  I say all the time: the biggest factor in a young QB succeeding is getting the game to slow down.  Hopefully it does and the offense will improve.

[HOUSE]

I saw this yesterday. The Article is loaded with half truths

Makes it sound like Buffalo just went crazy then dumped everyone

Josh Allen is thrown to the wolves  yet Sam Darnord isn't?

Players are retiring just to escape a bungling organization? yea right....

 

Look, the Bills do deserve some criticism  but the article is something for the Twilight zone.

[Shaw66]

28 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I've already made the case that both Aikman and Manning were on teams with far better than average offensive lines as each were only sacked 19 times, 22 times in their rookie seasons.

 

Steve Young was sacked 22 in four games in 85 and was battered around with 47 sacks in 14 games in 86. Young never did play a full season for Tampa Bay and had veteran QB Steve DeBerg to lean on for those back to back 2-14 seasons. Young then went to SF where he was coached by arguably the brightest offensive mind the league has ever known in Bill Walsh. Plus, like with Aaron Rodgers sitting behind Brett Favre for years while learning. Young sat behind Joe Montana for 5 seasons before starting in SF. 

 

 

 

This is more or less nonsense.   First, you asked that someone name good QBs who started their careers on bad teams.  I named three, and Bob Griese is another.  There are 26 modern era QBs in the Hall of Fame, and FOUR of them started on bad teams.   Statistically, that's about what you'd expect, about 15%.

 

Then you try to twist the stats to prove that somehow those guys didn't play on bad teams.   Aikman played on the worst offense in the league, and you say it was different because he played behind a good offensive line.   How good could that line have been if they were the worst offense in the league?   And, yes, he was sacked only 19 times.   Why?  Because he only attempted 293 passes.  Prorate that to 500 passes, what a most QBs throw in a serious, and he has 30 sacks or more.  

 

There simply is no evidence that starting as a rookie on a bad team impairs the development of QBs.    

 

Is this situation perfect?   No.   Allen would be better off with a better line (so would Eli Manning), a better QB coach, a better receiving corps, better this, better that.  None of it really matters.   He's on the field and he's learning, and that's better for him than being on the bench.  

16 minutes ago, VW82 said:

Although I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that young QBs will fail in bad situations, it definitely makes it harder on them and exposes them to risks you maybe wouldn't be so concerned with in better situations. 

 

To me, Ben and Mahomes are great examples of doing it the right way. Mahomes got to sit for a year and learn and slowly win over the confidence of his teammates so that when he finally got his shot he was ready. Ben got thrown in the fire early because of injury, but the Steelers had a championship team around him and only asked him to do things he was capable of. 

 

Bills just don't have that. We're playing him too early and asking him to do things he isn't ready for. Because of this teams are able to really key him on him. Allen seems like a tough kid so he should be ok but he's liable to get hurt like this. The biggest concern is will he get so consumed with all these rushers beating him up that he starts to lower his eye level as a habit (to protect himself). Once that happens, it's over. QB PTSD. 

I think this is nonsense.  

 

It's harder to succeed if you start for a bad team?  Yes, in that season, it's harder to succeed.  But there's no evidence that it's harder to be good in your fifth season if your first season is with a bad team.   I mentioned Steve Young, who's a good case in point.   He didn't seem to have any trouble overcoming starting his career on a bad team.  

 

Who says Allen isn't ready?   Does he look like he doesn't know what he's doing?  No.  Has he taken any serious hits?   No.   

 

There are probably 10 teams in the league whose offensive line is as bad as Buffalo's.  I don't see any teams benching their QBs because they're afraid they'll get injured.   

 

QB PTSD.  Nonsense.   Russell Wilson has been a league leader in sacks since starting as a rookie.   He hasn't been beaten up, he doesn't have PTSD, he doesn't do anything expect play great.   

 

This is all just nonsense.   Put the guy on the field and let him play.   He held his own Sunday, and there is no reason to believe that he won't improve as the season progresses.   He'll make mistakes like other rookies, he'll get hit like other quarterbacks, and he'll play football.   

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Link?

So who has had a more ideal situation to walk into to start their NFL career- Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen?  If you answer Mahomes, you are necessarily not a successful person?  OK.

 

I could care less about ideal situations.

 

If Mahomes is gonna be good, he will be. If he’s gonna be bad, he will be. And we don’t know yet. EJ manuals best game is arguably the second one he ever played. 

 

The point that was being made counteracting the article is successful people look for reasons they are going to succeed and unsuccessful people look for reasons they are going to fail.   

 

Josh Allen isn’t and shouldn’t be a victim of circumstance and his best chance of succeeding isn’t thinking he is. 

 

He’s the starting QB for one of 32 professional football teams- what more of an opportunity can you ask for? 

[Big Turk]

5 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

This is baloney. QB's that go to bad teams usually end up on the scrap heap and the some that do succeed like Peyton Manning, Troy Aikman didn't go to teams as bad as the current Buffalo Bills. Manning was only sacked 22 times his first year at Indy and Aikman was only sacked 19 times at Dallas. Meanwhile Allen has already been sacked 8 times in a game and a half. 

 

While David Carr was sacked 79 times and referred to as a tackling dummy...the Bills QBs are on a pace to beat that number with 88 as Josh with 8, Peterman with 3 in a little over a half. 

 

The article mentions Manning but doesn't say he was only sacked 22 times because he also had some decent talent on his offensive line to protect him. He also had Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison on that team. It was Manning learning the ropes with a 56.7 completion percentage and with 26 TDs, 28 Ints. 

 

As for Aikman his offensive line was arguably the very best the NFL has ever seen with LT Mark Tuinei 15 years with Dallas, LG Nate Newton 13 years with Dallas, Center Tom Raftery 14 years with Dallas, RG Crawford Kerr 6 years with Dallas, RT Kevin Cogan 7 years with Dallas, 14 in the NFL. Aikman learning the NFL ropes  9 TDs, 18 INTs with a 52.9 completion percentage. 

 

**What's interesting to me is the same year the team drafted Aikman #1 overall they also drafted OG Steve Wisniewski with the 29th pick (second round) and center Mark Stepnoski with the #57th pick (3rd round). So, it looks like the Cowboys FO went out of their way to make sure that pick at QB was well protected. 

 

 

Like I said, you throw a rookie QB on a bad team that can't protect him and he usually ends up on the scrap heap. If Allen even survives this season it will be a miracle. 

 

Lol...some people are built to overcome adversity and some aren't. You apparently are not hence your woe is me thinking.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

59 minutes ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Yeah it's super easy.  You don't need coaching, an offensive line, a defense, weapons to create separation- all you need is that "can do" attitude and you'll be successful.

 

Good point- he should just quit now. There are way too many reasons he will fail to even bother trying. 

[starrymessenger]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

There is a very wide range of opinions about how extensive these issues are. Regardless, whatever happened to any other QB in history is irrelevant. Each athlete is unique, as is each situation that athlete is in at any given moment. IMHO, if he has the qualities (physical and mental) necessary to succeed in the NFL, then he will. 

 

Analysts were divided in their opinions as to whether his problems could be coached out of him. Quite a few were of the view that some issues I.e. accuracy were not correctable. Others felt that with proper coaching and grooming they could improve. As far as I am aware all of the credible analysts were universally and unequivocally of the opinion that Josh was a very raw prospect, maybe a diamond in the rough to be sure, but  very much in need of work on his basic fundamentals re throwing mechanics, footwork etc...in addition to the many things that all rookie QBs need to absorb before transitioning to the pro game. All of this was moreover plainly evident from his WYO tape.

So I would ask you again, what rookie QB as unrefined as Josh Allen starting for a team as bad as the Bills has succeeded. Don't say Peyton. Don't say Aikman. Maybe there is one, but off the top I don't see it. 

Now, you say that every athlete is unique. But some stand out more than others that way. IMO Allen is pretty much in a class by himself. My personal opinion is that he looks to be a bona fide prodigy as far as his basic physical and mental skillset is concerned. He is a much better prospect than other strong armed and physically gifted QBs like Locker or Boller. That is why I continue to see him as a good prospect with a chance to succeed. But if he does get there all the credit will be his, not the Bills, who have done nothing to help him. And he will indeed prove that he was unique and probably without any obvious comparables.

Edited September 19, 2018 by starrymessenger

[TheElectricCompany]

23 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

If Mahomes is gonna be good, he will be. If he’s gonna be bad, he will be. And we don’t know yet. EJ manuals best game is arguably the second one he ever played. 

 

The point that was being made counteracting the article is successful people look for reasons they are going to succeed and unsuccessful people look for reasons they are going to fail.   

 

Josh Allen isn’t and shouldn’t be a victim of circumstance and his best chance of succeeding isn’t thinking he is. 

 

He’s the starting QB for one of 32 professional football teams- what more of an opportunity can you ask for? 

 

Whatever his ceiling is, Mahomes will hit it MUCH faster with the environment created in Kansas City. 

That environment will be damn near impossible to replicate, but they have truly done everything possible to make sure he'll be a star.  

Allen will also grow in his role, but he'll plateau and stall out until we get additional support around him. 

Let's stop with the Dale Carnegie bull ****. This not about how "driven" someone is to succeed, that will only take you so far in a talent filled league.

If you want to be an elite QB, you need other positions to show up and help you out. 

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by TheElectricCompany

[Nihilarian]

42 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This is more or less nonsense.   First, you asked that someone name good QBs who started their careers on bad teams.  I named three, and Bob Griese is another.  There are 26 modern era QBs in the Hall of Fame, and FOUR of them started on bad teams.   Statistically, that's about what you'd expect, about 15%.

 

Then you try to twist the stats to prove that somehow those guys didn't play on bad teams.   Aikman played on the worst offense in the league, and you say it was different because he played behind a good offensive line.   How good could that line have been if they were the worst offense in the league?   And, yes, he was sacked only 19 times.   Why?  Because he only attempted 293 passes.  Prorate that to 500 passes, what a most QBs throw in a serious, and he has 30 sacks or more.  

 

There simply is no evidence that starting as a rookie on a bad team impairs the development of QBs.    

 

Is this situation perfect?   No.   Allen would be better off with a better line (so would Eli Manning), a better QB coach, a better receiving corps, better this, better that.  None of it really matters.   He's on the field and he's learning, and that's better for him than being on the bench.  

How is it nonsense if Manning, Aikman didn't start on bad teams and were just playing poorly to begin with? Aikman went 0-11 because he threw 9 TDs, 18 INTs @ a 52.9 completion percentage. 

 

Nobody is twisting the stats as they are the reality! As is the fact that Aikman was only sacked 19 times all season. That means he had time to throw all season and was simply bad at doing so or no one to throw to. No idea where you are getting stats from but the reality is that 89 year the Cowboys had 513 passing attempts vs 355 rushing attempts. It also didn't help that David Shula was his OC. During their SB years the OC was Norv Turner, Zampese with Switzer as HC. 

 

 

It's my contention that if Steve Young had stayed on that bad 2-14 1985 Tampa Bay team that he would have never amounted to anything. Much less win super bowls or be a pro bowler/all pro. His completion percentage at TB was 52.2% with 3 TDs, 8 INTs his first year in 5 games. His second season at TB he went 2-12 with a 53.7% completion percentage 8 TDs, 13 INTs. As it was it took a few years of sitting and learning behind Joe Montana with Bill Walsh as his HC before he started playing well. 

 

I'd say Steve Young is a perfect example of a good to great QB starting on a bad team and playing poorly, developing poorly. 

 

Another QB is Jim Plunkett who played for the NE Patriots on bad teams for 5 years, went to SF for two years and never won more than 7 games in 7 seasons. Went to a great Oakland Raiders team and sat for a season then went on to win two super bowls on a great Raiders team. Again it's my contention that had Plunkett stayed with that bad NE Patriots team he would have never amounted to anything, much less win two super bowls! 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Nihilarian

[Big Turk]

18 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Good point- he should just quit now. There are way too many reasons he will fail to even bother trying. 

Exactly...in 25 years he can be Uncle Rico...

 

"If I just would have had a better OLine and some good receivers we could have won the Super Bowl..."

[Nihilarian]

7 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

Let's stop with the Dale Carnegie bull ****. This not about how "driven" someone is to succeed. If you want to be an elite QB, you need other positions to show up and help you out. 

What he said! 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

Whatever his ceiling is, Mahomes will hit it MUCH faster with the environment created in Kansas City. 

That environment will be damn near impossible to replicate, but they have truly done everything possible to make sure he'll be a star.  

Allen will also grow in his role, but he'll plateau and stall out until we get additional support around him. 

This is not about how driven someone is to be successful. This is the reality of playing a team sport. 

 

That's well stated, but it's not on the point.   No one is arguing that Allen is in the perfect position for him to start his career.  It's obvious that if you could draw it up, you'd put Allen on a better team with a better line and better receivers.   That's certainly true.  

 

The point is that some people seem to think that because Allen is on a bad team with a bad line and bad receivers, he should sit on the bench.   I don't agree.   It's just football.  Go out and play, and as you play, you'll get better.  

 

And although it was nice for Mahomes to sit for a season, Allen will be a better QB at the beginning of his second season than Mahomes at the beginning of his.  Allen will learn a LOT more this year than Mahomes did sitting last year.  

 

I don't agree about the "plateau."   The team's performance may plateau if they don't get better talent, but Allen doesn't have to plateau.   Michael Jordan played on a lot of bad teams, but HE kept getting better.  Eventually, the Bulls put good players around him and gave him a Hall of Fame coach, and the team started winning.  Allen will keep getting better for the next five years, whatever the Bills do.  

 

 

[metzelaars_lives]

27 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

I could care less about ideal situations.

 

If Mahomes is gonna be good, he will be. If he’s gonna be bad, he will be. And we don’t know yet. EJ manuals best game is arguably the second one he ever played. 

 

The point that was being made counteracting the article is successful people look for reasons they are going to succeed and unsuccessful people look for reasons they are going to fail.   

 

Josh Allen isn’t and shouldn’t be a victim of circumstance and his best chance of succeeding isn’t thinking he is. 

 

He’s the starting QB for one of 32 professional football teams- what more of an opportunity can you ask for? 

Just so many things.  It was Manuel's first game.  And you are throwing out all sorts of straw men everywhere.  Who said Josh Allen wouldn't have "asked for" this opportunity?  I'm sure he's very excited.  Who said Allen won't have an opportunity over the course of his career to prove whether or not he is a franchise QB?  Who said anything that contradicts your whole motivational poster statement about succeeding?  Look, this doesn't have to be a debate: apples to apples, who has been put in a more ideal situation to succeed, Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen?  It's a pretty straightforward question.  Who has a better chance of winning more games, Mike McCarthy or whoever the Cardinals coach is?  This tough guy, "no excuses" talk is hysterical.  Why can't you just acknowledge reality?

22 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Good point- he should just quit now. There are way too many reasons he will fail to even bother trying. 

WHO SAID THAT?!?  STOP WITH THE STRAW MAN BS!!

Edited September 19, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[Klaista2k]

Ok

Edited September 19, 2018 by Klaista2k