The Draft Network's Jon Ledyard Eviscerates Allen’s Week 2 Performance

[Bangarang]

1 hour ago, Fred Clause said:

Most of the stuff I found was audio interview, but here is a quote from him:  “Allen also needs massive development and time to sit and learn in the NFL. But A.J. McCarron and Nate Peterman are the only other quarterbacks on the Bills roster, and they aren’t exactly experienced veterans at the position. It’s arguably the worst situation in the NFL for Allen, and the Bills traded up to acquire him with Josh Rosen on the board. Franchise-altering mistake in my opinion. We’ll see if I’m right.” He is invested in Allen failing....

 

I’m sure a lot of  Bills fans would agree with much of what he said there. Boohoo he likes Rosen more. Many here felt the same way before we drafted Allen. He thinks Allen will suck. It’s his opinion and is likely not going to change that simply because Bills fans are an overly sensitive bunch. Maybe Allen will have to change that opinion by being good.

[Fred Clause]

8 hours ago, Bangarang said:

 

I’m sure a lot of  Bills fans would agree with much of what he said there. Boohoo he likes Rosen more. Many here felt the same way before we drafted Allen. He thinks Allen will suck. It’s his opinion and is likely not going to change that simply because Bills fans are an overly sensitive bunch. Maybe Allen will have to change that opinion by being good.

Oh I’m not saying I disagree with everything he says. Some of its over to he top, and some is spot on. But for a kid who has prematurely started just one game, it seems more like a justification analysis than true respectable work.

[NoSaint]

On 9/19/2018 at 10:53 AM, John from Riverside said:

These guys cling to being right when they make bust predictions on QBs

 

The problem?   Josh Allen looks like anything but a bust.....he is in the worst situation you could possibly imagine and still finds a way to make good plays (mixed with bad ones)

 

John, how can you call anyone out like that and then follow it up with your own glowingly positive review?  Surely you see the irony?

15 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

Yes, of course they are and yes he does.

 

He was on with Schopp and Bulldog explaining his take on Allen quite well a couple of days ago. 

 

Ad hominem attacks like we are seeing in this thread are a common logical fallacy widely practiced by your average Bills fan.

 

Ultimately, the source of the contempt for Ledyard is the poster's own fear that Allen isn't going to pan out.

 

He was considered a high risk project player by almost everyone, most had him as a 3rd round type gamble.

 

He is still exhibiting the same sorts of issues he has always exhibited, and his accuracy is all over the map.

 

It's just basic psychology.  Rather than address these things head on, the typical fan attacks the source of the criticism.

 

 

 

 

Theres always going to be a “breakthrough thermometer to hide the fever” aspect to a fan board. 

 

Hopefully said fever is curable and not deadly for allen. He has shown a few flashes of both the best and worst. We just need to see the ratio keep improving.

[GimmeSomeProcess]

10 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

He was a top 5 pick on some draft board, but a 10 player on hardly any big boards. A lot of sites didn't have him as one of the top 32 players. 

 

Allen is a boom or bust prospect who history shows probably won't work out. I don't know why people get so upset when people are critical of him. 

This is false bro, he was a first round trip projected picked on the majority sites and especially the major ones since his junior year. Stop feeding lies, l love draft season and frequent these sites routinely. That statement is false 

Edited September 22, 2018 by GimmeSomeProcess

[Fred Clause]

15 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

Yes, of course they are and yes he does.

 

He was on with Schopp and Bulldog explaining his take on Allen quite well a couple of days ago. 

 

Ad hominem attacks like we are seeing in this thread are a common logical fallacy widely practiced by your average Bills fan.

 

Ultimately, the source of the contempt for Ledyard is the poster's own fear that Allen isn't going to pan out.

 

He was considered a high risk project player by almost everyone, most had him as a 3rd round type gamble.

 

He is still exhibiting the same sorts of issues he has always exhibited, and his accuracy is all over the map.

 

It's just basic psychology.  Rather than address these things head on, the typical fan attacks the source of the criticism.

 

 

 

The biggest joke is posters whether they liked him or not claiming they know how his career will proceed after 1 start. That’s where you are a major failure, you are just as bad if not worse than the fan boys claims of greatness with your negativity. Chances are you will be right about Allen. It’s not hard to be as most young QB’s fail, so you are not  going out on a limb being negative and pointing out flaws,  you are not smarter than the fan boys, you have just taken the easy path. If Allen has some good games you will disappear, when he plays poorly you will appear gloating with your I told you so’s. It will all be so predictable and yet so boring...

[bobblehead]

17 minutes ago, Fred Clause said:

The biggest joke is posters whether they liked him or not claiming they know how his career will proceed after 1 start. That’s where you are a major failure, you are just as bad if not worse than the fan boys claims of greatness with your negativity. Chances are you will be right about Allen. It’s not hard to be as most young QB’s fail, so you are not  going out on a limb being negative and pointing out flaws,  you are not smarter than the fan boys, you have just taken the easy path. If Allen has some good games you will disappear, when he plays poorly you will appear gloating with your I told you so’s. It will all be so predictable and yet so boring...

 

 

It’s beyond just gloating. It’s just straight up creepy the lengths people are going when it comes to Josh Allen, I’ve never seen anything like it.  

[Cash]

18 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

RE: the throw to Dimarco- I remember a ton of people last year swearing up and down that, in a very similar situation, Jones was to blame for running a bad route in the last few seconds of the Panthers game. The two plays aren't identical obviously (main difference is Allen-->Dimarco was a completion and Taylor-->Jones an incompletion), but does Allen get extended the same consideration that was afforded to Taylor? 

 

To some extent, yes. Both were arguably bad passes (I'll argue that below) that were still catchable. FB DiMarco made a nice adjustment to catch the ball, WR Jones didn't. 

 

The passes themselves are hard for armchair QBs like us to evaluate. Here's my highly amateur take. I was at that Panthers game with a great view behind the play in question. The safety had completely vacated the area, and it looked to me like Tyrod recognized that and intentionally threw the pass more upfield, figuring Zay would recognize that as well. Zay didn't, and ran his route "as called" towards the sideline. If both are on the same page, that's a TD. 

 

With Allen's, I just saw on TV, so I have less of an opinion. The good is that it was ultimately still a catchable ball. The bad is that even if DiMarco ran the route wrong as Hap says, Allen was looking at him when he threw the ball, and threw it to his outside shoulder - not ideal. This wasn't a timing route where Allen lofted it up before DiMarco turned upfield - check the end zone cam. Bad throw even if the route was also bad. Or maybe good throw but too slow to realize where DiMarco actually was, which is also bad. 

 

To wrap up this novel, the bigger point is that Allen wasn't drafted #7 (but costing more like #1 in draft capital) to just be as good as Tyrod. Even Tyrod supporters like me only thought he was about the 15th best QB in the league. That's good enough to take you to the playoffs with a lot of help, and maybe win it all with like an all-time great defense or something. 

 

If the best we can say about Allen is that he's on Tyrod's level, he'll be a massive bust. Way too soon to make that call, and I'm keeping an open mind. Allen was always supposed to be a project, so it's no surprise that he's a bad QB right now. Hopefully he improves.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Cash

[BuffaloRush]

On 9/19/2018 at 10:28 AM, Midwest1981 said:

"Utterly dreadful" and "brutally bad in a myriad of ways" isn't quite how I'd characterize it.  But I have to admit- I was more discouraged than encouraged.  "It's his first start," "he had a few good plays," etc.  I know those things- IMO it was still discouraging to see him miss on some blatantly open throws (Murphy & DiMarco, famoulsy) and to force those picks in the second-half (especially the first one- I was imploring him to throw it away as he released it)...

 

Ledyard correctly mentions "there's a long way to go"- and I still think Allen's relentlessly competitive nature gives him a chance, even with his pre-draft concerns rearing their ugly head again in start #1 (mechanical unsoundness, inconsistent accuracy, decision-making, etc.).  Still, I was hoping week #1 offered a few more positives (there WERE some), even considering all factors like the Bills' under-talented roster, the opponent, his first NFL start, etc.

 

https://twitter.com/LedyardNFLDraft/status/1041772507903262720

 

Question - what makes Jon Ledyard such an authority?  He works for a second rate, niche website about 95% of football fans don’t even know exists.

[HappyDays]

25 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said:

 

Question - what makes Jon Ledyard such an authority?  He works for a second rate, niche website about 95% of football fans don’t even know exists.

 

There is no "authority" on NFL scouting. GMs making millions of dollars get it wrong as often as random scouting blogs run by fans who do it for fun. I take Ledyard's opinion for what it is. He clearly has a bias against Josh Allen but at the same time his analysis of the individual plays is fair. I wouldn't call his game "brutally bad," that's hyperbole. Darnold's game against Cleveland was brutally bad. Allen's first game was a typical rookie game and I just want to see him get better.

20 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

RE: the throw to Dimarco- I remember a ton of people last year swearing up and down that, in a very similar situation, Jones was to blame for running a bad route in the last few seconds of the Panthers game. The two plays aren't identical obviously (main difference is Allen-->Dimarco was a completion and Taylor-->Jones an incompletion), but does Allen get extended the same consideration that was afforded to Taylor? 

 

I tend to agree with this, I don't know for sure DiMarco made the right play on the ball. I didn't think Allen's accuracy was bad. I only saw 2 throws that were too inaccurate by NFL standards. Being incredibly precise with the ball will never be his game. Some QBs make their living hitting a pass 8 yards down the field with perfect precision that allows for 10 yards of YAC - Allen will instead just hit a receiver 18 yards down the field. It's the same result and you don't need pinpoint accuracy to play that style of QB. What he needs to get better at is reading the field and identifying coverages pre-snap. If you watch Mahomes play the past 2 weeks he hasn't been firing precise darts. He's identifying open receivers and delivering them the ball on time with just enough accuracy. His receivers are making good plays on the ball too.

[GoBills808]

15 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

There is no "authority" on NFL scouting. GMs making millions of dollars get it wrong as often as random scouting blogs run by fans who do it for fun. I take Ledyard's opinion for what it is. He clearly has a bias against Josh Allen but at the same time his analysis of the individual plays is fair. I wouldn't call his game "brutally bad," that's hyperbole. Darnold's game against Cleveland was brutally bad. Allen's first game was a typical rookie game and I just want to see him get better.

 

I tend to agree with this, I don't know for sure DiMarco made the right play on the ball. I didn't think Allen's accuracy was bad. I only saw 2 throws that were too inaccurate by NFL standards. Being incredibly precise with the ball will never be his game. Some QBs make their living hitting a pass 8 yards down the field with perfect precision that allows for 10 yards of YAC - Allen will instead just hit a receiver 18 yards down the field. It's the same result and you don't need pinpoint accuracy to play that style of QB. What he needs to get better at is reading the field and identifying coverages pre-snap. If you watch Mahomes play the past 2 weeks he hasn't been firing precise darts. He's identifying open receivers and delivering them the ball on time with just enough accuracy. His receivers are making good plays on the ball too.

That's exactly what I see when I watch Allen- a guy who can put the ball on the receiver at pretty much any part of the field. He's never going to be running a precision, ultra razor edge perfection short game like Brady and the Pats, but he's going to make throws downfield that give his guys a chance to make the catch. 

[LSHMEAB]

15 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

He was a top 5 pick on some draft board, but a 10 player on hardly any big boards. A lot of sites didn't have him as one of the top 32 players. 

 

Allen is a boom or bust prospect who history shows probably won't work out. I don't know why people get so upset when people are critical of him. 

 

Right. There's a reason these guys are willing to stake their "reputation" on Allen's failure. It's because there's always a team willing to bite on a guy with tremendous physical tools and limited production in college and they never seem to pan out. It's not because they hate him or hate your kids or whatever personal aggrievement you want to attach to the opinion.

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting Allen to succeed. We all want Allen to succeed. But you're kidding yourself if you think these people have some kind of personal vendetta. I'm sure the Ledyard types just view is a safe bet.

[Batman1876]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

 

Right. There's a reason these guys are willing to stake their "reputation" on Allen's failure. It's because there's always a team willing to bite on a guy with tremendous physical tools and limited production in college and they never seem to pan out. It's not because they hate him or hate your kids or whatever personal aggrievement you want to attach to the opinion.

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting Allen to succeed. We all want Allen to succeed. But you're kidding yourself if you think these people have some kind of personal vendetta. I'm sure the Ledyard types just view is a safe bet.

I do think that Ledyard's gimmick is being the loudest Allen critic in the room. 

[LSHMEAB]

11 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

I do think that Ledyard's gimmick is being the loudest Allen critic in the room. 

 

Yeah, and he definitely has confirmation bias. He's got his little media schtick.

 

I just don't get why people are so apoplectic about it and take it so personally.

[Batman1876]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

 

Yeah, and he definitely has confirmation bias. He's got his little media schtick.

 

I just don't get why people are so apoplectic about it and take it so personally.

Because we all have a little bit of fear regarding if Allen will work out. 

[John from Riverside]

6 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

John, how can you call anyone out like that and then follow it up with your own glowingly positive review?  Surely you see the irony?

 

Theres always going to be a “breakthrough thermometer to hide the fever” aspect to a fan board. 

 

Hopefully said fever is curable and not deadly for allen. He has shown a few flashes of both the best and worst. We just need to see the ratio keep improving.

Explain to me where anywhere that is a glowing review

 

"Anything but like a bust"  you know who looks like a bust?  Peterman.......wont throw the ball.....doesnt appear to have the physical tools and hangs balls in the air......Josh Allen doesnt do those things.

 

"Good plays mixed with bad ones".......ok......where is my glowing review there

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

There is no "authority" on NFL scouting. GMs making millions of dollars get it wrong as often as random scouting blogs run by fans who do it for fun. I take Ledyard's opinion for what it is. He clearly has a bias against Josh Allen but at the same time his analysis of the individual plays is fair. I wouldn't call his game "brutally bad," that's hyperbole. Darnold's game against Cleveland was brutally bad. Allen's first game was a typical rookie game and I just want to see him get better.

 

I tend to agree with this, I don't know for sure DiMarco made the right play on the ball. I didn't think Allen's accuracy was bad. I only saw 2 throws that were too inaccurate by NFL standards. Being incredibly precise with the ball will never be his game. Some QBs make their living hitting a pass 8 yards down the field with perfect precision that allows for 10 yards of YAC - Allen will instead just hit a receiver 18 yards down the field. It's the same result and you don't need pinpoint accuracy to play that style of QB. What he needs to get better at is reading the field and identifying coverages pre-snap. If you watch Mahomes play the past 2 weeks he hasn't been firing precise darts. He's identifying open receivers and delivering them the ball on time with just enough accuracy. His receivers are making good plays on the ball too.

 

And you've put your finger on the real places where Allen needs immediate improvement to function as an NFL QB. 

 

On several plays, there were WR downfield doing jumping jacks, waving semaphores, and otherwise trying to make it clear to Allen that they were Open!!  Allen missed seeing them, rolled out, and scrambled for a few yards.  If he can improve his ability to find those guys, he can immediately save wear and tear on himself and play a stronger game.  Improvement at setting protections (or handing that job off) would also help.

 

Whether DiMarco or Zay can get RAC yards is a refinement.  Finding the open guys downfield is a must.

[Cash]

On 9/22/2018 at 11:14 AM, Cash said:

 

To some extent, yes. Both were arguably bad passes (I'll argue that below) that were still catchable. FB DiMarco made a nice adjustment to catch the ball, WR Jones didn't. 

 

The passes themselves are hard for armchair QBs like us to evaluate. Here's my highly amateur take. I was at that Panthers game with a great view behind the play in question. The safety had completely vacated the area, and it looked to me like Tyrod recognized that and intentionally threw the pass more upfield, figuring Zay would recognize that as well. Zay didn't, and ran his route "as called" towards the sideline. If both are on the same page, that's a TD. 

 

With Allen's, I just saw on TV, so I have less of an opinion. The good is that it was ultimately still a catchable ball. The bad is that even if DiMarco ran the route wrong as Hap says, Allen was looking at him when he threw the ball, and threw it to his outside shoulder - not ideal. This wasn't a timing route where Allen lofted it up before DiMarco turned upfield - check the end zone cam. Bad throw even if the route was also bad. Or maybe good throw but too slow to realize where DiMarco actually was, which is also bad. 

 

To wrap up this novel, the bigger point is that Allen wasn't drafted #7 (but costing more like #1 in draft capital) to just be as good as Tyrod. Even Tyrod supporters like me only thought he was about the 15th best QB in the league. That's good enough to take you to the playoffs with a lot of help, and maybe win it all with like an all-time great defense or something. 

 

If the best we can say about Allen is that he's on Tyrod's level, he'll be a massive bust. Way too soon to make that call, and I'm keeping an open mind. Allen was always supposed to be a project, so it's no surprise that he's a bad QB right now. Hopefully he improves.

 

For the record, with 6 minutes to go in the first half of the Vikings game, Allen has played really well. Only one bad pass that I noticed - the underthrow to Foster. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 minutes ago, Cash said:

 

For the record, with 6 minutes to go in the first half of the Vikings game, Allen has played really well. Only one bad pass that I noticed - the underthrow to Foster. 

 

Romo agrees with you

I’ll take Romo’s judgement >>>>>> Jon Ledyard any day

[Doc]

:LOL!:

 

Someone please post the Ledyard analysis of this game. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

:LOL!:

Someone please post the Ledyard analysis of this game. 

 

Imma guess crickets