The OL Is Not The Problem

[Nihilarian]

The QB isn't the only one that should be calling protections especially if he has only played one half of an NFL game and is learning as he goes. The center is also supposed to call protections and duties for the line.

 

On one play I can recall Dion Dawkins blocking the DT and leaving the edge rusher in Ingram free and untouched to sack Allen. Now the announcer stated that Allen should have seen this and thrown to the RB who was the outlet. The play happened so quickly that Allen would have needed to throw as soon as the ball touched his hands. All things considered I put this one on the offensive line as Dawkins simply blocked the wrong player.  

 

I watched other plays in which the RB and TE whiffed on blocks. Croon has done this several times at times in different games. 

 

As someone else put it when you have defenders in the backfield to tackle the RB/QB as soon as he touches the ball the problem is with the line.

[billieve420]

1 hour ago, TigerJ said:

Groy is playing poorly.  

 

We weren’t that great last year with Woods and Incognito as well.

[RFL]

15 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

The only silver lining about the first 2 games is we have yet to see our full offense. Daboll has been forced to scrap his playbook by the 2nd quarter because he's down 2-3 scores. 

The little we have seen of the run game looks very encouraging , Ivory looks surprisingly explosive.

 

As long as this D gets their heads out of their butts , we'll see a much more complete offense and Allen on full display. 

 

When your defense gives up 4 consecutive TDs in your first start , and the defense knows you're forced to go pass heavy , that's about as tough as it gets for him. 

Agreed, and Ivory should be used much more

[MJS]

6 hours ago, Figster said:

I respectfully disagree, sure its going to happen on occasion, but it does matter what caliber lineman you have or the occasionlly becomes more frequently.

 

How can you even run the ball well when the Oline is getting blown off the line of scrimmage?

 

 Do you think its by coincidence the Eagles have one of the best Olines in the league?

 

I never said it isn't important to have a good oline. It is very important. This string of comments started with a statement that every time Allen gets sacked he'll blame the oline. I replied that no matter how good your oline is your QB will get sacked. The best olines in the league give up sacks.

[Bing Bong]

On 9/18/2018 at 6:57 PM, Domdab99 said:

This just goes to show you - and me - that we often don't know what the heck is going on or why the Bills are playing poorly. 

They're playing poorly because the defense stops trying when they know we're incapable of scoring in the first quarter

[ColoradoBills]

51 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

The QB isn't the only one that should be calling protections especially if he has only played one half of an NFL game and is learning as he goes. The center is also supposed to call protections and duties for the line.

 

On one play I can recall Dion Dawkins blocking the DT and leaving the edge rusher in Ingram free and untouched to sack Allen. Now the announcer stated that Allen should have seen this and thrown to the RB who was the outlet. The play happened so quickly that Allen would have needed to throw as soon as the ball touched his hands. All things considered I put this one on the offensive line as Dawkins simply blocked the wrong player.  

 

I watched other plays in which the RB and TE whiffed on blocks. Croon has done this several times at times in different games. 

 

As someone else put it when you have defenders in the backfield to tackle the RB/QB as soon as he touches the ball the problem is with the line.

 

I've seen other things too........multiple times on the other side Mills goes back to block and engages nobody.

I don't care how PFF scores the OL,  they are not playing well as a unit.  That includes TE's and RB's.

Defenses are fooling the Bills blocking schemes with stunts, delayed blitzes and other tactics.

DC's are going to keep game planning confusion and the more tape they get the more bad outcomes we will see.

 

I am sorry to say I expect even worse from them in Minnesota Sunday.

I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it.

 

I have little faith in Bodine but maybe a change at Center will help.  Compared to Groy it can't get much worse.

[Bing Bong]

36 minutes ago, RFL said:

Agreed, and Ivory should be used much more

And Murphy, we should be running way more than we are. I'm likely wrong but has to at least lead to a few first downs early on.

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

As someone else put it when you have defenders in the backfield to tackle the RB/QB as soon as he touches the ball the problem is with the line.

The announcers made a great point that Allen never makes a preread on an obvious blitz by either assigning blockers or audibling to a play to exploit a blitz.

 

Not that the O Line doesn't suck. But I did realize Allen almost never adjusts the play, or assignments. Like a safety was clearly blitzing, Allen gets set, and has his running back running a route into coverage, rather than having him block or make an out route where the safety should be. 

 

The good news is this should be a very easy thing to coach a rookie quarterback to do. Unlike footwork or accuracy, this can be improved in a few games if we have the right coaches.

[MTBill]

I suspect a lot of the "goodness" of our Guards comes from the open door we have at Center.  If they shore up that position, I bet the guard's grades are going to slip.

 

Just sayin'.

[Nihilarian]

11 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

And Murphy, we should be running way more than we are. I'm likely wrong but has to at least lead to a few first downs early on.

The announcers made a great point that Allen never makes a preread on an obvious blitz by either assigning blockers or audibling to a play to exploit a blitz.

 

Not that the O Line doesn't suck. But I did realize Allen almost never adjusts the play, or assignments. Like a safety was clearly blitzing, Allen gets set, and has his running back running a route into coverage, rather than having him block or make an out route where the safety should be. 

 

The good news is this should be a very easy thing to coach a rookie quarterback to do. Unlike footwork or accuracy, this can be improved in a few games if we have the right coaches.

Allen doesn't yet know what he is looking at when he steps behind the center and sees the defense. It's going to take time to learn how to "read" defenses and they will attempt to confuse the hell out of him with different looks each Sunday. Much like Rex Ryan used to do against Brady as nobody knew which defender was going to blitz. Eventually NFL offenses learned how to read Ryan's blitz's and defeat them. 

 

I don't know that any QB can learn how to read 32 different defenses after a few games. Kind of why Andy Reid sat Patrick Mahomes for an entire year so he could sit, learn and develop.

 

The really good new is Josh Allen was "off the charts" on the NFL whiteboard in learning and understanding how NFL plays work. He is an extremely bright kid who usually doesn't make the same mistake twice.  

 

All we Bills fans can do is hope he survives the season enough to develop properly. Then we have to hope that Beane will give him a better supporting cast around in and forgo using all the early draft picks for the defense in 2019. 

[Bring it]

On 9/18/2018 at 7:57 PM, Domdab99 said:

This just goes to show you - and me - that we often don't know what the heck is going on or why the Bills are playing poorly. 

 

PFF (in other thread on this sight), YardsPerPass, and Joe Buscaglia have all done a lot more studying than us, and all three have claimed that main culprits in the Chargers loss are Josh Allen and Tremaine Edmunds. Now, I think we could all see how Edmunds struggles against a savvy passer like Rivers, and while Allen certainly shows promise, he missed a lot of open guys and didn't get the ball out in time to be truly effective. 

 

But the real surprise is that the offensive line, save for center Ryan Groy, all played from decent to very well. In facxt, Both John Miller and Vlad Ducasse - two of the bigger punching bags on this site - actually played way above average and were standouts on the team:

 

 

Armed with this knowledge, it now makes sense that the OL has not been overhauled or changed much at all. In fact, other than maybe replacing Groy with Bodine, I don't see any changes coming for this line in the near future.

 

And with the change in the play-calling in the 2nd half, and with both our star 1st-round rookies getting valuable experience, I expect both them and this team to actually be a bit better than most are expecting this year. Certainly not 0-16 bad. 

 

Matbe The Process is working...and we just can't see it yet. 

 

 

Our first 8 games are a brutal initiation for a rookie QB! And a rookie mlb! 

I am expecting this team to get better once the youngsters get some more experience. But honestly, there are doing ok considering the challenges! I think our future is bright!!

[blacklabel]

Surprised Groy hasn't stepped up and played better. He played really well when he had to step in for Wood. Played well enough that they matched the offer sheet the Rams gave him in order to retain him. Miller was visibly fired up early in the game last week. Looks like he gives a sh*t and wants everyone on the same page and getting it done. Actually haven't heard Mills or Dawkins names mentioned much which is typically a good sign that those guys are handling business. But yeah, Groy has been rough and this week I'm pretty sure we're gonna see Bodine.

 

And of course Edmunds and Allen are gonna take their lumps this season. They're gonna look great at times and at times they're gonna leave us wondering, "What the crap was that?" Edmunds, a 20-year old rookie in his second ever start, got played by a 15-year future Hall of Famer... he ain't the first Rivers has done that to and he won't be the last. 

 

Allen... first NFL start, had some highs and lows. The game is moving pretty fast for him right now but with more experience and the more he sees from different defenses, the more it'll slow down and come to him. We also have no idea how he's being coached right now. Are they encouraging him to take what the defense gives him? Are they calling just half-field reads? Or is it maybe that he's only played in 1.5 NFL games and is learning on the fly.

 

It's gonna be a tough season but there will be some high points and there's no better way for these young guys to learn than to be in it and playing, gaining hands-on experience. Mistakes are how we learn. Expect young players to make them. I'm not saying this to the OP or anyone in particular but, honestly, it feels like if Allen doesn't come out and complete 94% of his passes for 550 yards and 12 touchdowns he's a bust. If Edmunds doesn't make 21 tackles, get 6 sacks, picks off 3 passes, causes 2 fumbles and returns one for a TD then he's a bum. They'll get better the more they play.

 

Just boggles my mind that for so long, so many fans wanted the full on rebuild. No more patch-up jobs, no more bridge QBs, etc. etc. And now they're finally getting what they've asked for and two weeks in and they're losing their minds. (Again, not you, OP, this is just in general).

 

Aye yi yi. This board was a great place to have a nice time discussing the Bills and football in general. Last couple weeks have been abysmal.

[Real McClappy]

18 hours ago, Mango said:

 

It isn't a pie, right? So if they line is a huge problem, it doesn't make Allen less of one. 

 

Let's just remember that our QB was sacked on a handoff. Let the one sink in. The OL is a huge issue, so is QB play. 

 

SPOT on!

 

Some people can't believe their own eyes I guess or just not watching the games?

[T master]

 

Here are some very surprising things that i read about which actually is the exact opposite of what i have thought about some of these players on the O line !!

 

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2018/09/20/buffalo-bills-pff-pro-foot-ball-offensive-line-ryan-groy-vlad-ducasse-dion-dawkins/  ?

[Dr. K]

Repost from another thread:

 

After watching the replay of the Bill-Chargers game, my conclusion is that the key to scoring points is better quarterback play, and that's pretty much it. Even with a o-line being shaky at times, and the receivers having nobody considered a real star, there were lots of plays left on the field in both the first and second halves. Receivers were open, and Allen had time to throw, especially if he recognizes the blitzes coming and adjusts to that. 

 

This is not meant to be an attack on Allen, who was starting his first NFL game, but if he learns to see the field better, analyze the defense pre-snap, and throw more accurately (a lot of things to improve, admittedly), the Bills will win quite a few games. 

 

Add in the possibility that the defense could play as well as it did in the second half, and this is a decent team. 

[Houston's #1 Bills Fan]

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 9:13 PM, LSHMEAB said:

Josh Allen held on to the ball an average of 3.6 seconds before release.

 

That is not going to cut it in the NFL.

YES! Biggest issue I saw. I wonder if Peterman's quick release in Preseason compared to Josh prompted his starting the season. Either way, he's got the reigns now and needs to release the ball sooner. With that arm, force that ball into the tight window and make the receiver earns his pay!

[Nihilarian]

16 minutes ago, Dr. K said:

Repost from another thread:

 

After watching the replay of the Bill-Chargers game, my conclusion is that the key to scoring points is better quarterback play, and that's pretty much it. Even with a o-line being shaky at times, and the receivers having nobody considered a real star, there were lots of plays left on the field in both the first and second halves. Receivers were open, and Allen had time to throw, especially if he recognizes the blitzes coming and adjusts to that. 

 

This is not meant to be an attack on Allen, who was starting his first NFL game, but if he learns to see the field better, analyze the defense pre-snap, and throw more accurately (a lot of things to improve, admittedly), the Bills will win quite a few games. 

 

Add in the possibility that the defense could play as well as it did in the second half, and this is a decent team. 

And what would help this young QB play better? How about a solid rushing attack that makes the defense work to stop the run so it opens up the passing game. Allen isn't at the level of a top ten QB so he will need a bunch of help from his OC, the run game and the defense. 

 

So far the defense had let this team down big time by not stopping any drives and putting the team in a hole to start off. Fix the damn defense! 

 

The run game as of right now the Buffalo Bills are 26th in rushing attempts, 25th in yards. The best player on the Bills offense is Shady McCoy and his OC needs to get him 25 touches or more each game. So far he has had only 21 touches in two games. Shady needs the ball and in space so he can gain yardage. 

 

Stop getting drive killing penalties by the O line, TE's. Stop whiffing on blocks! Stop blocking the wrong guy! 

 

The Bills are 29th in the NFL in run blocking, with a 50.9 score

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, blacklabel said:

Surprised Groy hasn't stepped up and played better. He played really well when he had to step in for Wood. Played well enough that they matched the offer sheet the Rams gave him in order to retain him. Miller was visibly fired up early in the game last week. Looks like he gives a sh*t and wants everyone on the same page and getting it done. Actually haven't heard Mills or Dawkins names mentioned much which is typically a good sign that those guys are handling business. But yeah, Groy has been rough and this week I'm pretty sure we're gonna see Bodine.

 

And of course Edmunds and Allen are gonna take their lumps this season. They're gonna look great at times and at times they're gonna leave us wondering, "What the crap was that?" Edmunds, a 20-year old rookie in his second ever start, got played by a 15-year future Hall of Famer... he ain't the first Rivers has done that to and he won't be the last. 

 

Allen... first NFL start, had some highs and lows. The game is moving pretty fast for him right now but with more experience and the more he sees from different defenses, the more it'll slow down and come to him. We also have no idea how he's being coached right now. Are they encouraging him to take what the defense gives him? Are they calling just half-field reads? Or is it maybe that he's only played in 1.5 NFL games and is learning on the fly.

 

It's gonna be a tough season but there will be some high points and there's no better way for these young guys to learn than to be in it and playing, gaining hands-on experience. Mistakes are how we learn. Expect young players to make them. I'm not saying this to the OP or anyone in particular but, honestly, it feels like if Allen doesn't come out and complete 94% of his passes for 550 yards and 12 touchdowns he's a bust. If Edmunds doesn't make 21 tackles, get 6 sacks, picks off 3 passes, causes 2 fumbles and returns one for a TD then he's a bum. They'll get better the more they play.

 

Just boggles my mind that for so long, so many fans wanted the full on rebuild. No more patch-up jobs, no more bridge QBs, etc. etc. And now they're finally getting what they've asked for and two weeks in and they're losing their minds. (Again, not you, OP, this is just in general).

 

Aye yi yi. This board was a great place to have a nice time discussing the Bills and football in general. Last couple weeks have been abysmal.

Solid post, although I thought Dawkins actually struggled a bit last week. 

[Nihilarian]

2 minutes ago, Houston's #1 Bills Fan said:

YES! Biggest issue I saw. I wonder if Peterman's quick release in Preseason compared to Josh prompted his starting the season. Either way, he's got the reigns now and needs to release the ball sooner. With that arm, force that ball into the tight window and make the receiver earns his pay!

Allen's release time is probably one of the fastest in the NFL at .38 of a second.

 

The problem is he needs to get the timing down with his receivers which should come with time. Plus he needs his receivers to find ways to get separation and get open and this is why he is holding the ball too long. 

[reddogblitz]

Pass pro looked 1/2 way decent Sunday. DEfinitely the best we've see all year. Josh had a lot of time on a lot of plays.

 

Not bad enough to blame QB woes on IMHO.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

I don't think you even need all 22 film to see the line isnt very good .  Not on every snap but certainly lots of protection breakdowns  Maybe they gel and things improve. Lot of those sacks was two guys picking up one rusher and leaving someone free to buzz in on the qb  Josh can help by making a decision and getting the rock out.  Get that run game going and don't put all the emphasis on Allen and he'll be ok.

 

I think sometimes when both guys are blocking one DL and leaving someone free, it's an error in reading the D and setting the protections.

 

It's the run blocking IMO that's the bigger issue.  I'm still trying to get to grips with what's wrong, all I can say at my level is "ain't workin' much"