The OL Is Not The Problem

[billsredneck1]

1 hour ago, Tenhigh said:

Personally I was happy with what I saw out of the kid in the second half.  I know you have a vested interest in this point of view because you've been beating this particular drum for so long, but go back and watch again, the kid shows some real promise.  Don't get me wrong, he's making a LOT of mistakes, but he seems to be learning and even progressing a bit too.  All in all I'd say it was a pretty good first start for a rookie, especially on that is going to need some work.   I'd kill to have Eric Wood back to help this kid along, as Groy doesn't seem to know his ass from his hat.

the biggest problem is mills. there was one play( i think 3rd qtr.) where the de ran an inside stunt and mills whiffed and looked like an absolute quitter.  those inside stunts aren't making miller's job any easier.  if my short term memory serves me, i think it was like a 3rd down and we were in fg range (albeit a long one) and this whiff caused pressure.....

and while i was screaming for john boy to throw the ball, he took a sack and killed the fg position. i don't know for the life of me why they don't try someone else at rt.

 

especially if mills is getting eaten alive early on.  my preference of lineup would have been....and still is...dawkins lt / miller lg (his natural position) / bodine c (his experience should be able to call protections) / groy at rg (he can help cover mill's ass) and anyone other than mills at rt.

Edited September 19, 2018 by billsredneck1

[greeneblitz]

PFF, hahaha, try again, they so misuse stats and should never be trusted.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

3 hours ago, vincec said:

Apparently, it's up to Allen to pick up the free blitzers. As if he didn't have enough on his plate as a rookie. Nice offensive system.

 

Yes...it is up to the QB. That's part of his job, to properly direct the offense. That includes identifying blitzes pre-snap amd adjusting the protection. Its been a glaringly noticeable issue for Allen since week 2 of the preseason. 

 

This isnt an "offensive system" issue, its a "QB development" issue. There's a lot more to developing as an NFL quarterback than just going through progressions and making the proper reads. Making the proper pre-snap adjustments is part of that. Having the awareness to throw the ball away and live to see another down is part of that...etc. 

 

Its been one start for Allen. None of what we're seeing should come as a surprise to anyone, unless you have the wrong expectations. Too many people want to find someone to point the finger at, when it comes to the Bills' struggles so far this season. There's plenty of "blame" to go around; its not just one guy or one thing. QB gets blame at times, O-line at times, defense a lot. But most of us expected these kind of struggles going into the season. Some people just seemed to have lofty, unreasonable expectations; hope springs eternal before week 1.

 

We all want to win and win now, but its just not reasonable based on how this team is currently constructed. This needed to happen, for future success...real success, not 8-8, 9-7. The Bills are shedding dead weight and cap, and getting younger and more talented at important posistions like QB, LT, CB, MLB. Its taking a step back to take 2 forward. Sorry for getting off the rails a bit, but it just seems like a lot of people have the wrong perspective on little details as well as the bigger picture. 

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Quarterbacks and centers are responsible for identifying blitzers and adjusting protections. That is just football. It has been said that when Dak was a rookie in Dallas that his center took complete control of that for the season. He is arguably the best center in the NFL when healthy. We, in contrast, have a rookie QB and a center who has little starting experience. That might be where Bodine would help and I was probably as guilty as anyone of underrating that element during the center battle.

Good point.  We may be seeing Bodine soon.

[BurpleBull]

4 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

Seriously?  Our number one problem is bad play calling?

 

And "zero identity" is in the top 10?  What the hell does that even mean?  And how would that translate to winning on Sundays? 

 

You know what the most important factor is?  It didn't crack your Top 10!  

 

The quarterback.

We don't have one.

 

 

 

 

"In no real order" still means, in no real order.

 

Without an identity you're pretty much doing whatever from one week to the next. Players might not know what exactly it is that they're trying to accomplish, outside of the obvious 'trying to win games' because nothing's been established...no philosophy, no identity.

 

 

The QB situation actually did crack the list. It's the last point concerning the Bills' possibly already conceding to the idea of not making the playoffs.

 

That's based on the super-early switch at QB. 

 

Way too early to say that the Bills don't have a QB in Allen, if that's what you're implying, considering he played well as a rookie making his first start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob in STL]

Joe Buscalia

14 hours ago, Domdab99 said:

This just goes to show you - and me - that we often don't know what the heck is going on or why the Bills are playing poorly. 

 

PFF (in other thread on this sight), YardsPerPass, and Joe Buscaglia have all done a lot more studying than us, and all three have claimed that main culprits in the Chargers loss are Josh Allen and Tremaine Edmunds. Now, I think we could all see how Edmunds struggles against a savvy passer like Rivers, and while Allen certainly shows promise, he missed a lot of open guys and didn't get the ball out in time to be truly effective. 

 

But the real surprise is that the offensive line, save for center Ryan Groy, all played from decent to very well. In facxt, Both John Miller and Vlad Ducasse - two of the bigger punching bags on this site - actually played way above average and were standouts on the team:

 

 

Armed with this knowledge, it now makes sense that the OL has not been overhauled or changed much at all. In fact, other than maybe replacing Groy with Bodine, I don't see any changes coming for this line in the near future.

 

And with the change in the play-calling in the 2nd half, and with both our star 1st-round rookies getting valuable experience, I expect both them and this team to actually be a bit better than most are expecting this year. Certainly not 0-16 bad. 

 

Matbe The Process is working...and we just can't see it yet. 

 

 

No doubt that Allen and Edmunds have to get better, they are rookies in critical positions and they are learning., but to consider the thought that the OL is not a big problem is like saying you have not watched the games. 

 

PFF is pretty good but they do not know the game plan going in so their analysis is not complete IMO ... Joe Buscaglia is not a football expert.  He is WKBW  Bills beat reporter.  He is more qualified to make a Bocce's Pizza than he is to grade out NFL players. 

 

I will agree with your notion that the fans here need to chill out and let the season unfold.  I do Trust the Process and I am sticking with this staff for the next few years.  Last year showed me a lot about this coach and we need to give them a few years. 

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Bob in STL

[row_33]

every expert sez you build from the O-line but I don't see teams actually doing this in the NFL

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

OL sucks, its not a question and not open for debate, its putrid.  Without question we NEED a MIN of 3 new starters on the OL this offseason from FA and the Draft.

 

 This OL is even terrible on Madden, Ingram sacked Allen 3 times on the first drive on me lmao

Edited September 19, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[dave mcbride]

15 hours ago, Domdab99 said:

This just goes to show you - and me - that we often don't know what the heck is going on or why the Bills are playing poorly. 

 

PFF (in other thread on this sight), YardsPerPass, and Joe Buscaglia have all done a lot more studying than us, and all three have claimed that main culprits in the Chargers loss are Josh Allen and Tremaine Edmunds. Now, I think we could all see how Edmunds struggles against a savvy passer like Rivers, and while Allen certainly shows promise, he missed a lot of open guys and didn't get the ball out in time to be truly effective. 

 

But the real surprise is that the offensive line, save for center Ryan Groy, all played from decent to very well. In facxt, Both John Miller and Vlad Ducasse - two of the bigger punching bags on this site - actually played way above average and were standouts on the team:

 

 

Armed with this knowledge, it now makes sense that the OL has not been overhauled or changed much at all. In fact, other than maybe replacing Groy with Bodine, I don't see any changes coming for this line in the near future.

 

And with the change in the play-calling in the 2nd half, and with both our star 1st-round rookies getting valuable experience, I expect both them and this team to actually be a bit better than most are expecting this year. Certainly not 0-16 bad. 

 

Matbe The Process is working...and we just can't see it yet. 

 

 

Looking at his letter grades, it's pretty shocking that every starter outside of Edmunds and Vontae Davis gets a B- or higher (mostly higher) given that they were essentially blown out.

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

OL sucks, its not a question and not open for debate, its putrid.

 

 This OL is even terrible on Madden, Ingram sacked Allen 3 times on the first drive on me lmao

 

that just about tears it for hope

 

 

[NewEra]

15 hours ago, fansince88 said:

The biggest issue here is the patience of the fan base. This year, many on here claim was the down year that last year was supposed to be. Now it is showing that may be true and you want everyone cut and fired. Unbelievable how quick many turn. @Domdab99 good post

 

I’m down on this year’s team but I don’t want anyone to be fired (except Castillo, whom I wanted to be fired the second we hired him).  I believe in what McBeane is doing but I really hope we try and get Allen some playmakers out there.  Maholmes has Tyreek, Kelce, Hunt and shady to go along with Andy Reid.  Allen has Shady and he’s 30.  Nothing else except the lowest paid OL in the league. 

 

Beane better get our young QB some weapons  and some guys that can catch his passes or he’s going to end up like JP.  Not many free agent WRs. None worthy of being a #1 imo. We really may have to spend a 1st on a WR.

 

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

It's the end of the world!!!!!!

[Figster]

11 hours ago, MJS said:

 

Yep. That's why starting QB's get injured every year, including some of the great ones like Rodgers.

 

It does not matter if you have all pro bowl caliber linemen. It's going to happen occasionally.

I respectfully disagree, sure its going to happen on occasion, but it does matter what caliber lineman you have or the occasionlly becomes more frequently.

 

How can you even run the ball well when the Oline is getting blown off the line of scrimmage?

 

 Do you think its by coincidence the Eagles have one of the best Olines in the league?

Edited September 19, 2018 by Figster

[SoTier]

17 hours ago, Domdab99 said:

This just goes to show you - and me - that we often don't know what the heck is going on or why the Bills are playing poorly. 

 

PFF (in other thread on this sight), YardsPerPass, and Joe Buscaglia have all done a lot more studying than us, and all three have claimed that main culprits in the Chargers loss are Josh Allen and Tremaine Edmunds. Now, I think we could all see how Edmunds struggles against a savvy passer like Rivers, and while Allen certainly shows promise, he missed a lot of open guys and didn't get the ball out in time to be truly effective. 

 

But the real surprise is that the offensive line, save for center Ryan Groy, all played from decent to very well. In facxt, Both John Miller and Vlad Ducasse - two of the bigger punching bags on this site - actually played way above average and were standouts on the team:

 

 

Armed with this knowledge, it now makes sense that the OL has not been overhauled or changed much at all. In fact, other than maybe replacing Groy with Bodine, I don't see any changes coming for this line in the near future.

 

And with the change in the play-calling in the 2nd half, and with both our star 1st-round rookies getting valuable experience, I expect both them and this team to actually be a bit better than most are expecting this year. Certainly not 0-16 bad. 

 

Matbe The Process is working...and we just can't see it yet. 

 

 

 

It is totally disingenous to claim that "the OL is not the problem except for C Ryan Groy".  The C is the guy who calls the protections for the rest of his OL mates and if he gets it wrong, the QB pays for it.  Moreover, if the center can't hold his blocks, there's no pocket for the QB to step up into.

 

I wouldn't bet against 0-16 for this dumpster fire that McDermott and Beane have created, as hard as it is for NFL teams to go winless through an entire season. 

[ctk232]

20 hours ago, Domdab99 said:

 

I didn't say they suck...they just need some seasoning. I think they're both going to be very good....maybe even this year. 

I think it's important to separate the statistics from the implications and interpretation...you also have to consider the variables and factors that go into those grades and ask if they truly correlate or cause any effect on actual game performance. For example, the argument that Star grades poorly per PFF because he plays the one-technique and just eats up double teams every down. Let's assume he is actually doing well per his assigned role in the defense. This is not a flashy PFF grade, but it helps Kyle and others who make the tackles grade out well, too.

 

It's incredibly easy to say that both rookies didn't grade out well, and their performances were contributory to us losing the game. They were not the only reasons, though, and to think this summary and grading takes blame away from the OL is rather confusing. Does Allen's play not get affected by the OL's performance? So if we hold these grades to be all and end all, should Allen's grade not then reflect the immense protection and security the likes of Ducasse and Miller supposedly provided? How have they performed in the run game? Seems to me we haven't been able to establish an effective run game behind this OL either. Grades are fine in interpreting statistics, but they are not useful tools in determining actual player performance in relation to the outcome of a game. Even statistics fall short in that regard, and need to be properly interpreted to accurately capture that comparison. That being said, they can also bring to light circumstances that might not otherwise get picked up in the eye test, but take care how you use these arbitrary af grades.

 

Lastly, these analysts you proclaim do an immense amount of studying and should be taken seriously...do they not also have personal agendas to prove their draft predictions come true? Or write stories to increase readership which is directly tied to their paycheck? Do they not also consider other factors in determining these grades? I can read and study all I want about football, doesn't automatically make me an "expert" whose opinion is worth considering at an exceptional level. 

 

Take from this what information there is, but don't sensationalize a response based upon tangential "grading." We all think this team is ultimately headed in the right direction beyond what we're seeing this year, no point in trying to save the face of players on an OL that likely won't be here next year. 

 

So yes, you are absolutely right the OL is not the problem, the team is. But they are a large part of the performance that we are seeing.

Edited September 19, 2018 by ctk232

[Mango]

20 hours ago, Domdab99 said:

This just goes to show you - and me - that we often don't know what the heck is going on or why the Bills are playing poorly. 

 

PFF (in other thread on this sight), YardsPerPass, and Joe Buscaglia have all done a lot more studying than us, and all three have claimed that main culprits in the Chargers loss are Josh Allen and Tremaine Edmunds. Now, I think we could all see how Edmunds struggles against a savvy passer like Rivers, and while Allen certainly shows promise, he missed a lot of open guys and didn't get the ball out in time to be truly effective. 

 

But the real surprise is that the offensive line, save for center Ryan Groy, all played from decent to very well. In facxt, Both John Miller and Vlad Ducasse - two of the bigger punching bags on this site - actually played way above average and were standouts on the team:

 

 

Armed with this knowledge, it now makes sense that the OL has not been overhauled or changed much at all. In fact, other than maybe replacing Groy with Bodine, I don't see any changes coming for this line in the near future.

 

And with the change in the play-calling in the 2nd half, and with both our star 1st-round rookies getting valuable experience, I expect both them and this team to actually be a bit better than most are expecting this year. Certainly not 0-16 bad. 

 

Matbe The Process is working...and we just can't see it yet. 

 

 

 

It isn't a pie, right? So if they line is a huge problem, it doesn't make Allen less of one. 

 

Let's just remember that our QB was sacked on a handoff. Let the one sink in. The OL is a huge issue, so is QB play. 

[DuckyBoys]

I don't think you even need all 22 film to see the line isnt very good .  Not on every snap but certainly lots of protection breakdowns  Maybe they gel and things improve. Lot of those sacks was two guys picking up one rusher and leaving someone free to buzz in on the qb  Josh can help by making a decision and getting the rock out.  Get that run game going and don't put all the emphasis on Allen and he'll be ok.

[Tenhigh]

I can't believe that the we are freaking out about Allen after his FIRST start.  It's not going to be instant gratification, folks.  He will need to do some on the job learning. 

[TigerJ]

19 hours ago, billieve420 said:

We used to be able to run the ball consistently under Roman even with teams stacking the box. Why has the run game taken a nose dive year after year. I still believe the line is below average and could use upgrades throughout. 

Groy is playing poorly.  

[stuvian]

I guess shady getting tackled behind the LOS is his own fault