PFF's view so far

[mjt328]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I know there are mixed opinions on the value of PFF - and that is fair enough.  Through two games their top 5 graded Bills are:

 

1. Josh Allen - 73.3

2. Matt Milano - 71.5

3. Kyle Williams - 68.9

4. Micah Hyde - 67.6

5. Jordan Poyer - 66.5

 

Their worst 5 are:

 

1. Nathan Peterman - 24.3

2. Ryan Groy - 40.0

3. Kelvin Benjamin - 41.8

4. Charles Clay - 47.7

5. Star Lotulelei - 48.0

 

 

Some of that matches my eye test.... but some of it doesn't.  Interested in what others think.

 

 

I've always been confused about how PFF rates quarterbacks.  I like Josh Allen's potential.  But if he wasn't a rookie playing his first snaps in the NFL, I don't see how anyone could be rating his play very high at this point.  There are numerous times he's missed open guys, held the ball too long on sacks, thrown off target and made bad decisions.  Nathan Peterman's score sadly also seems too high, so maybe it's just a QB thing.

 

Count me down as another who thinks Star Lotulelei is getting unfairly knocked.  PFF seems to like DTs who penetrate in the backfield, so they have always given Kyle Williams very high scores (even when he doesn't have a good game).  Someone like Star is basically a space-eater who occupies blockers.  He's basically invisible on game film, not going forwards or backwards.  We can argue whether that kind of player is worth his big contract, but I certainly don't think he's been terrible for us.

 

Although Ryan Groy has definitely been our worst O-Lineman, I'm shocked that Jordan Mills and John Miller aren't on this list.  They have been almost as bad.  No push in the running game, constantly confused about who to block, and sometimes getting knocked onto their butts.  It's been awful.

 

Re-watching the game, I'm noticing that most of our defensive breakdowns are due to "discipline errors."  Edge players not keeping contain.  Linebackers biting too hard on play fakes.  Tacklers take bad angles to the ball.  Guys in the secondary in poor position.  I'm curious how PFF rates these kinds of plays, considering that Tremaine Edmunds is not on the negative list, and Jordan Poyer is listed very high.

 

 

 

 

[formerlyofCtown]

1 hour ago, Pbomb said:

I thought groy  was good in previous years not sure what happened to him this year. Benjamin doesn’t seem like he tries half the time. Many people predicted the lack of impact lotulelei would have. Surprised about clay. And peterman, well lets just hope he doesn’t play again for us

See any LBs or DEs on that bottom 5?

 

Then Star is doing his job.

If you're looking for Donald or Cox that cost 20 mil+.

Edited September 18, 2018 by formerlyofCtown

[JoPar_v2]

8 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

I've always been confused about how PFF rates quarterbacks.  I like Josh Allen's potential.  But if he wasn't a rookie playing his first snaps in the NFL, I don't see how anyone could be rating his play very high at this point.  There are numerous times he's missed open guys, held the ball too long on sacks, thrown off target and made bad decisions.  Nathan Peterman's score sadly also seems too high, so maybe it's just a QB thing.

 

Count me down as another who thinks Star Lotulelei is getting unfairly knocked.  PFF seems to like DTs who penetrate in the backfield, so they have always given Kyle Williams very high scores (even when he doesn't have a good game).  Someone like Star is basically a space-eater who occupies blockers.  He's basically invisible on game film, not going forwards or backwards.  We can argue whether that kind of player is worth his big contract, but I certainly don't think he's been terrible for us.

 

Although Ryan Groy has definitely been our worst O-Lineman, I'm shocked that Jordan Mills and John Miller aren't on this list.  They have been almost as bad.  No push in the running game, constantly confused about who to block, and sometimes getting knocked onto their butts.  It's been awful.

 

Re-watching the game, I'm noticing that most of our defensive breakdowns are due to "discipline errors."  Edge players not keeping contain.  Linebackers biting too hard on play fakes.  Tacklers take bad angles to the ball.  Guys in the secondary in poor position.  I'm curious how PFF rates these kinds of plays, considering that Tremaine Edmunds is not on the negative list, and Jordan Poyer is listed very high.

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pff-player-grades

 

You can read about their methodology for these rankings at the link above if you’re curious. Just scroll down past the sales pitch.

[GRHater69]

Groy is a partial victim of the people around him. He stepped-in nicely for Eric Wood in 2016 but he also had Richie Incognito lined-up next to him.....now look what he has. Vlad the stiff and Miller. 2 guys who probably don't start anywhere else in the NFL.

 

I'm not defending Groy, but he's not the only problem.

 

 

[plenzmd1]

Prolly does not belong here..but will ask anyway. I have not watched the all 22 on either game..at least I almost 100% focused on Edmunds and his play. Has Star been doing his job? And I am one who says that's job, in this D..is too occupy 2 players on most plays while maintaining his position. Sounds like he has from folks in here..that's good to hear!

 

@joesixpack , these numbers suppose graders, who do not know play calls and responsibilities, can grade players.Kinda tough. Jeremy White last year used to call out that PFF might claim that QBs have a  passer rating of 66 against Tre White(on a scale of 100) as what looks like his coverage responsibly caught balls on 2 of 3 targets. Problem with that rating is it dismisses that on the other 38 passes QB went elsewhere cause Tre had lockdown coverage..and Tre may have passed man off put PFF thinks it was still Tre's guy..or someone else may have blown a coverage and Tre was trying to cover up for it.

 

In other words..can be a tool to use..but as in most analytics need to take it for what they are and are not the bible..

Edited September 18, 2018 by plenzmd1

[Richard Noggin]

5 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

need to take it for what they are and are not the bible..

The bible isn't the bible.

[plenzmd1]

Just now, Richard Noggin said:

The bible isn't the bible.

well, it is the bible..but it may not be the truth..hows that?

[bobobonators]

Bobo’s views:  Napalm. 

[Richard Noggin]

1 minute ago, plenzmd1 said:

well, it is the bible..but it may not be the truth..hows that?

Your analogy grows stronger by the minute.

[mjt328]

8 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said:

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pff-player-grades

 

You can read about their methodology for these rankings at the link above if you’re curious. Just scroll down past the sales pitch.

 

I've read through their methodology before.  It's definitely interesting, but it's still unclear at times.

My opinion is that it works better for some positions, but not so well for others.

 

A great example is with Defensive Tackles.  Kyle Williams always explodes off the ball quickly.  This often gives him the appearance of beating his blocker, even when an O-Lineman purposely uses his over-pursuit to help create a big running lane.  He gets a big score, even though he helped contribute to a bad running play.  Meanwhile, Star Lotulelei basically holds up 1-2 defenders and lets the guys behind him do their job.  He never appears to get penetration, so his score remains low.

 

Another person pointed out the problem with someone like Tre'Davious White.  How do you score a guy when quarterbacks are scared to throw his way?  The guy has been total lock-down so far, yet he fails to crack our Top 5. 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

47 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

 

I'd certainly argue that White is hands down the best player on the field we have.  He really hasn't given up anything in two games.  But I guess since there are no flashy interceptions it doesn't count.

 

Agree - I was surprised not to see White in the top 5. I think against the Chargers they definitely tried to stay away from him. 

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Agreed - he's been solid for us but Sunday was a rough outing.

 

I'm not so sure. He had a sloppy missed tackle early but after that he played pretty well from what I saw. He played the Mike Williams touchdown pretty much perfectly. Sometimes you just have to say "perfect throw, great catch".

45 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

Although Ryan Groy has definitely been our worst O-Lineman, I'm shocked that Jordan Mills and John Miller aren't on this list.  They have been almost as bad.  No push in the running game, constantly confused about who to block, and sometimes getting knocked onto their butts.  It's been awful.

 

Agree John Miller, think he ranks pretty close to that bottom 5.  Disagree on Jordan Mills who both on PFF ratings and on my "live" eye test,  and the all 22 from week 1 (not got to week 2 yet) has been our least bad offensive lineman. That is, and should be, a worry in itself - but Mills has been very much the least of our problems up front so far. Dion Dawkins has struggled much more than many want to admit (and frankly more than I expected based on last year) in the run game where he has been blown up countless times. His pass pro has been respectable but his run game leverage has been bad.

[BmarvB]

1 hour ago, Captain_Quint said:

I think Poyer had a rough game this week. If they weren't going after Edmund's, they were going after Poyer. I'd say he's taken a step back from last year when he was so effective. 

The offenses are starting to figure him out and how to attack him

[MJS]

How does Allen stack up to Darnold?

[dollars 2 donuts]

2 hours ago, Pbomb said:

I thought groy  was good in previous years not sure what happened to him this year. Benjamin doesn’t seem like he tries half the time. Many people predicted the lack of impact lotulelei would have. Surprised about clay. And peterman, well lets just hope he doesn’t play again for us

 

I hope it swings around, but for now, dare I say kudos to those of you who thought signing Star was a mistake.

 

I was not one of you and I hope I don't become one of you, because if I do that means he doesn't end up turning it around.

[Dablitzkrieg]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I know there are mixed opinions on the value of PFF - and that is fair enough.  Through two games their top 5 graded Bills are:

 

1. Josh Allen - 73.3

2. Matt Milano - 71.5

3. Kyle Williams - 68.9

4. Micah Hyde - 67.6

5. Jordan Poyer - 66.5

 

Their worst 5 are:

 

1. Nathan Peterman - 24.3

2. Ryan Groy - 40.0

3. Kelvin Benjamin - 41.8

4. Charles Clay - 47.7

5. Star Lotulelei - 48.0

 

 

Some of that matches my eye test.... but some of it doesn't.  Interested in what others think.

 

Can someone with better knowledge of this explain what it means?  The reason I ask is that Allen is ranked 31st in QBR/Total QBR according to ESPN.  What is the difference and why would he be much higher according to PFF?

[Augie]

I don’t know how much this is all worth, but I’m encouraged to see Allen at the top. Let’s face it, that’s FAR more important than anyone else on the list, top or bottom. If it turns out we have our guy, I feel good about the future. 

 

 

.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Augie

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Captain_Quint said:

I think Poyer had a rough game this week. If they weren't going after Edmund's, they were going after Poyer. I'd say he's taken a step back from last year when he was so effective. 

It’s seems as if he suffers from short arm syndrome. The stiff arms are just destroying him this season 

[Peter]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I know there are mixed opinions on the value of PFF - and that is fair enough.  Through two games their top 5 graded Bills are:

 

1. Josh Allen - 73.3

2. Matt Milano - 71.5

3. Kyle Williams - 68.9

4. Micah Hyde - 67.6

5. Jordan Poyer - 66.5

 

Their worst 5 are:

 

1. Nathan Peterman - 24.3

2. Ryan Groy - 40.0

3. Kelvin Benjamin - 41.8

4. Charles Clay - 47.7

5. Star Lotulelei - 48.0

 

 

Some of that matches my eye test.... but some of it doesn't.  Interested in what others think.

 

 

Even the top five are not rated that highly.

 

Do you have the grades for each of the offensive linemen?

[Jpsredemption]

Oh hey look Star is as bad as he was in Carolina. Quality move.

 

Oh hey look Kelvin Benjamin isn't very good. Another Carolina guy.

 

How are Watkins and Dareus performing?

[wppete]

McBean will end up doing something stupid like drafting a OL with the #1 pick over all in next years draft.