Brandon Bean failed to provide Josh Allen a mentor

[MAJBobby]

9 minutes ago, BillsMafia13 said:

Nobody is saying thats the only thing to handicap him, but if you deny a veteran presence wouldnt be beneficial you're blind and stubborn.  Especially for some one as raw as Allen is who probably never had a legit coach/mentor until  now.  Oh wait he still doesnt. And if you think Gentry would be more valuable to Allens development than a knowledgeable  vet you're deluuuuuusional

 

But you CAN deny the impact of a vet presense because there are many successful QBs that didnt or dont have one. And just like thier are Failures at the QB that Did have one. See how the impact of a Vet is minimized and WAAAAAAAAYYYYYY (see i can do it too) over rated 

19 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

Not what I suggested at all, !@#$.  

 

The Cliff's notes version for the slow kids in class, and users named MAJBobby: 

 

Someone like Romo around Allen all the time would be a benefit.  There is no one like that around Allen right now.

 

We should get someone like that.  

 

 

 

 

 

Who?  Give me that answer. WHO 

 

easy to spout things with zero plan 

 

we also should get him An All Pro WRs and also All pro OLs. See I just did what you did spout nonsense with no names

 

so keep trying to insult me to over your shallow and lack of depth ideas and critical thinking skills 

Edited September 17, 2018 by MAJBobby

[GrizzReaper]

48 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

So 20M for Bradford?

Cousins

Who who are these mythical mentors that were available this offseason 

 

I'd rather have paid Bradford than Star but that's just me... He could have secured a better QB back in FA. Whether you would like it or not that's personal preference. Me I would have rather paid a QB for a year when I know I'm bringing in a raw talent in the draft. To me that's more important than signing a DT or wherever else the $ went during FA. That's just my preference though. As it stands I don't think the moves Bean made we're very good ones at this point seeing where the team sits while a rookie QB is cutting his teeth as a starter.

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, GrizzReaper said:

 

I'd rather have paid Bradford than Star but that's just me... He could have secured a better QB back in FA. Whether you would like it or not that's personal preference. Me I would have rather paid a QB for a year when I know I'm bringing in a raw talent in the draft. To me that's more important than signing a DT or wherever else the $ went during FA. That's just my preference though. As it stands I don't think the moves Bean made we're very good ones at this point seeing where the team sits while a rookie QB is cutting his teeth as a starter.

 

Me too but McD needed to replace thr hole that they created for a 6th round pick. Could also have Kept Taylor as that mentor. 

 

But this teams ego driven Whaley player purge strapped them. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by MAJBobby

[Bob in STL]

19 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Got it. There is one way to develop rookie. Shall I also list the Busts like Winston, Tannenhil etc that failed with their Vet Mentor QB?  Or no. 

 

So yea lets go sign Moore that helps more than WRs and OL 

 

your set in your legacy thinking and are not going to change because your football knowledge likely comes from legacy thinkers teaching so enjoy

I never said to sign Moore, but I would have liked it and I think it would have been a smarter move than signing McCarron. 

 

BTW - Carr had veteran Matt Schaub on the roster.  Goff had veteran Case Keenum on the roster.  That is 70% of your list debunked. 

 

Most rookie QBs do not start but some do.  Most teams have a veteran QB on the roster but rarely not all.   If the rookie plays good enough to start then so be it.  Having the veteran on the team is smart should the rookie get hurt or is just not ready.   Having a veteran that can help the rookie is even smarter.  The Bills did none of this. 

 

How you can defend what Beane did because you think having a veteran on the roster is "old school" is a bad argument on your part.  There is more than one way to develop a rookie. 

 

 Beane himself probably wishes things would have turned out different.  I highly doubt he thinks everything is going to plan at the QB position. 

[GrizzReaper]

On 9/17/2018 at 3:00 PM, MAJBobby said:

 

But you CAN deny the impact of a vet presense because there are many successful QBs that didnt or dont have one. And just like thier are Failures at the QB that Did have one. See how the impact of a Vet is minimized and WAAAAAAAAYYYYYY (see i can do it too) over rated 

 

Who?  Give me that answer. WHO 

 

easy to spout things with zero plan 

 

we also should get him An All Pro WRs and also All pro OLs. See I just did what you did spout nonsense with no names

 

so keep trying to insult me to over your shallow and lack of depth ideas and critical thinking skills 

 Whoa whoa whoa let's not turn on one another... I think it's safe to say "Beane has made some questionable decisions." At this point we know this guy has given us a sub par OL. A bad receiving corps... And finally if you're not Bobby you may believe he failed at securing a Vet to mentor our shiny new QB. So back to the original post... I think Beane is going to need to be heavily scrutinzed for the moves or lack of moves he's made so far if this team is as bad as we are all expecting. Who knows maybe they start off putrid and get rolling after a few games idk. However if they are atrocious for the whole season then Beane needs to be held accountable for that. If Allen falls apart and starts wandering into bust territory that too I say is squarely on Beane.

Edited September 20, 2018 by GrizzReaper

[MAJBobby]

10 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

I never said to sign Moore, but I would have liked it and I think it would have been a smarter move than signing McCarron. 

 

BTW - Carr had veteran Matt Schaub on the roster.  Goff had veteran Case Keenum on the roster.  That is 70% of your list debunked. 

 

Most rookie QBs do not start but some do.  Most teams have a veteran QB on the roster but rarely not all.   If the rookie plays good enough to start then so be it.  Having the veteran on the team is smart should the rookie get hurt or is just not ready.   Having a veteran that can help the rookie is even smarter.  The Bills did none of this. 

 

How you can defend what Beane did because you think having a veteran on the roster is "old school" is a bad argument on your part.  There is more than one way to develop a rookie. 

 

 Beane himself probably wishes things would have turned out different.  I highly doubt he thinks everything is going to plan at the QB position. 

 

So we just throw crap players names because they are veterens. Fine Bills have Veteren Nate Peterman on the roster (he is a veteran by the way) 

 

where am i defending Beane. He should have ADDRESSED THE OL. ADDRESSED the WR. 

 

Should have hired a real QB coach 

 

A vet sucking a paycheck because of some old school thinking was the last thing. 

 

10 minutes ago, GrizzReaper said:

 Whoa whoa whoa let's not turn on one another... I think it's safe to say "Beane has made some questionable decisions." At this point we know this guy has given us a sub par OL. A bad receiving corps... And finally if you're not Bobby you may believe he failed at securing a Vet to mentor our shiny new QB. So back to the original post... I think Beane is going to need to be heavily scrutinzed for the moves or lack of moves he's made so far if this team is as bad as we are all expecting. Who knows maybe they start off putrid and get rolling after a few games idk. However if they are atrocious for the whole season then Beane needs to be held accountable for that. If Allen falls apart and starts wondering into bust territory that too I say is squarely on Beane.

 

I agree that Beane and McD have and continue to make questionable decisions. Ask around I am by no means a Process cultist. 

 

And what IS and has been proven over and over again is Good OL and Good Weapons help a Rookies Development because they help ON the field as some Vet sucking a paycheck. 

 

So to rank what should have been done

 

Hire a real QB coach

address OL

address weapons

then i get to Vet QB

 

what is very worrisome is David Culley is their Solution to help develop Allen. When a QB coach doesnt hurt the cap and the owner would not skimp on paying a coach their choice is a WR coach with ZERO track record for QB development. That moreso even than the Line and WRs 

Edited September 17, 2018 by MAJBobby

[GrizzReaper]

7 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Me too but McD needed to replace thr hole that they created for a 6th round pick. Could also have Kept Taylor as that mentor. 

 

But this teams ego driven Whaley player purge strapped them. 

 

I'm with you on Taylor honestly Bean shouldn't have traded him away. Like we had our Vet on the roster to help Allen and we let him go. That's where this criticism really starts at that point where he traded Taylor... I'm not sure if we still end up with Allen but I know whatever rookie we would've ended up with would have had a humble hard working QB who clawed his way to starter and made the playoffs in the QB room with him. Also with Taylor we could have just let the rookie sit for a year with no worries. I think honestly this whole problem can trace it's origins to trading Taylor.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Kind of like Buddy Nix/Doug Whaley in 2013 when EJ Manuel competed against UDRFA Jeff Tuel and Practice Squad Journeyman Thad Lewis, with rookie OC Nate Hackett, who also doubled as the QB Coach. 

[Dave Allen]

1 hour ago, Homey D. Clown said:

 

I wonder which veteran Jim Kelly had on the roster when we finally got him into a Bill uni.....

 

Yep....  keep searching for one...

Kelly already had two years of pro experience, even though it was the USFL, by the time he got to Buffalo. And when he was in Houston he had Bruce Threadgill, who had five years experience with the NFL and CFL, to mentor him. 

[GrizzReaper]

29 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

So we just throw crap players names because they are veterens. Fine Bills have Veteren Nate Peterman on the roster (he is a veteran by the way) 

 

where am i defending Beane. He should have ADDRESSED THE OL. ADDRESSED the WR. 

 

Should have hired a real QB coach 

 

A vet sucking a paycheck because of some old school thinking was the last thing. 

 

 

I agree that Beane and McD have and continue to make questionable decisions. Ask around I am by no means a Process cultist. 

 

And what IS and has been proven over and over again is Good OL and Good Weapons help a Rookies Development because they help ON the field as some Vet sucking a paycheck. 

 

So to rank what should have been done

 

Hire a real QB coach

address OL

address weapons

then i get to Vet QB

The more I think about it..  it's just another decision he made in a long line of questionable decisions.

 

The line... We trade Glenn. We lose Wood and Incognito. So there's 3 starters gone. What did Beane do to address that? I'm of the opinion that the game is won in the trenches and I get the feeling Beane thinks OL isn't a big deal. It is... We are seeing the results of that lack of OL talent every week since the pre season vs the Browns.

 

The WR corps... Here Im thinking we have Benjamin and Jones. He gets Kerley to work the slot. We have Clay who's not too bad as a receiving TE. So I think he tried to remedy the WR with Kerley he swung and missed it bc Kerley is gone. The WRs I think have more been just a major disappointment at this point. Personally I was expecting a nice year from Benjamin bc of his contract situation. Jones I thought would be playing with a purpose due to his bad rookie season and off season antics. I haven't seen it yet. Those two have been really disappointing.

 

Then the QB situation. He gets rid of Taylor. He gets the bottom of the FA QB pile in AJ McCarron... Then he gets rid of AJ and leaves us with Allen and Nasty Nate. Serious blunders there imo.

 

So all these things to me... Beane needs to own this. If this team continues to give up sacks continues to be unable to put points up or move the ball. If Allen gets injured and we end up with Peterman starting again. If we give up a franchise record for sacks. If Allen's rookie year sees him ruined due to bad OL/WR play... All this stuff is on Beane. So it'll be interesting to see how it all works out. I get the process blah blah it's going to be a down year and all that. However there's no good reason the process had to be this bad imo. There where things Beane could have done to make this "process" a lot smoother.

Edited September 17, 2018 by GrizzReaper

[Bob in STL]

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

In 1986 when Jim came over into the NFL, Reich was a 2nd year guy who had dressed for 1 game and thrown 1 pass in his previous year - hardly a vet.

I think it's a highly flawed analogy, because

1) JK played 4 years in a high-level college program, so he had more/higher level college experience than did Allen

2) JK then played 3 years for Mouse Davis in the USFL, so he had more pro football experience than does Allen, and he has said it helped him.

 

So in 1986 as a nominal "NFL rookie", Jim had far more QB experience than Josh Allen does at this point, and he still kind of stunk up the joint throwing almost as many INTs as TD and taking 43 sacks.  It *is* just possible that the presence of a more experienced QB would have helped Jim, who really by modern standards took about 4 years to hit his NFL groove.

Read my post.  I never said Reich was a vet or Kelly’s mentor.   Nowhere in this thread did I start the mentor concept.  I said Reich was his peer, which he was.  I do note Kelly’s comments in which he has said numerous time that having Reich there was like having another coach.  Reich and Kelly prepared together. During the games Reich was in tune to everything.  

 

Elway had had the same relationship with his peer backup, Gary Kubiak.  

 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Bob in STL

[BmarvB]

Here's where I'm stuck at...

If Beane already had his mind made up to draft a QB, why didn't he go out and get a serviceable vet with just enough gas left in the tank to come aboard and help mentor Allen just in case something like this happened and he has to start right now?

[greenyellowred]

19 hours ago, Batman1876 said:

NFL players aren't that fond of training their replacements. Ben and Flacco have been publicly antagonistic.  The best example of it is that Farve spent his efforts mocking, insulting, humiliating and actively avoiding helping him. 

 

Also: Bledsoe-Losman and Kelly-Collins.

[Jpsredemption]

If Buddy Nix self proclaimed he wasn't the smartest guy in the room then what does this staff have to say?

[MAJBobby]

Terry Pegula failed to provide McDermott a Mentor. 

Terry Pegula failed to provide Beane a Mentor 

[T master]

Well not really Bean & company brought in a vet but due to premature evacuation they sent him to Oakland which i didn't get at all !!

 

They had 2 guys with 1 yrs experience in the NFL & what 2 games started ? Why would you trade the only guy that has 4 yrs invested in the league before you know what you have when the real season starts makes NO sense what so ever, then you put in place the thought of what happened last year to Nate when he was put in to start a game wouldn't you think that they should have at least kept AJ for 2 games ??

 

Then if they were going to wait to put Allen in say game 6 to 8 he would have had AJ to be that mentor for the time he was here & on the field again it makes no sense even if AJ wasn't a starter he still has seen a lot more than either of the other 2 that were in that room & i think would have been a steadying presence given what he told the guys on the field during the last preseason game ...

[y2zipper]

19 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That's actually very interesting, but it begs the question exactly who did Beane think AJM was, and why did he think so?

 

I agree it would have been highly desireable to have someone like a Matt Moore in the QB room (if his heart and head were still into it). 

 

OTOH, given Josh Allen's background and what he had to overcome to get where he is, I think he's probably the kind of person who finds the mentors he needs wherever.

 

My thinking on the first question is that what they were looking for is more along the lines of somebody better than Allen and functional at the position, like what Keenum is doing for Denver as opposed to signing someone instead of drafting Allen or signing a vet to hand Allen the job. A guy like Keenum comes at too many years for too much guaranteed money though and I think they rightfully thought that AJ would come in and win the job.

 

It turned out in the preseason and camp that AJ was so bad he couldn't beat out Peterman or Allen for the job and he wasn't worth keeping around. A guy in his late 20s trying to get a starting job and losing is different than a guy in his late 30s at the end of his career mentoring a young guy.

[buffaloboyinATL]

20 hours ago, bmur66 said:

Yes. They failed as a team when they decided to let McCarron go and keep Peterman. That was a big F Up

It sure does feel that way.  I think they were shopping Perterman and McCarron and took the best offer they got.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

33 minutes ago, y2zipper said:

 

My thinking on the first question is that what they were looking for is more along the lines of somebody better than Allen and functional at the position, like what Keenum is doing for Denver as opposed to signing someone instead of drafting Allen or signing a vet to hand Allen the job. A guy like Keenum comes at too many years for too much guaranteed money though and I think they rightfully thought that AJ would come in and win the job.

 

It turned out in the preseason and camp that AJ was so bad he couldn't beat out Peterman or Allen for the job and he wasn't worth keeping around. A guy in his late 20s trying to get a starting job and losing is different than a guy in his late 30s at the end of his career mentoring a young guy.

 

I think there are two factors.  One is, as I said elsewhere - if Beane even reached out, Matt Moore has earned >$20M mostly holding a clipboard.  He's now been in Miami 9 years.  He's got kids in school, probably playing soccer or softball or PeeWee.  He has no motivation to relocate for the season unless Beane backed up the Brinks truck.

 

But when I read Beurlein's quote of Beane that "AJ wasn't who we thought he was", my immediate question was....just who DID you think he was?  Because he did have a reasonable set of game film out there, and it kind of said he is what the draft thought he was: a gamer, a good teammate, and a QB who needs a lot of quality pieces around him to function at a game manager level.  If they thought AJ would win the job given our OL and WR, why did they think that? 

If they wanted someone like Keenum, why didn't they go after Keenum?  Or Bridgewater?  Or anyone known to be able to function as a starter, of which there were an unusually good crop this year?  I hear what you're saying about cost, but what does "too much guaranteed money" mean?  If you need something, you pay market price. 

 

It's water under the bridge now, it just puzzles me

[zow2]

Well, it's right about now I'm wishing Frank Reich was our coach... who know if they would have drafted Allen?  But at least Frank could mentor and properly oversee a rookie QB.