Sadly, McDermott is the wrong guy to develop his own guys

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

No worries, thick skin....I was being sarcastic, but attempting brevity....b/c you know, people don't like long-winded sarcasm.

 

 

[Kemp]

Teams with pure trash personnel tend to lose consistently.

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

How exactly is Allen being set up for failure? He’s most likely not going to win many games but he’ll get in game experience and that’ll be good for him in the long run. His ‘failure’ will be tied to the mental side of the game. I think he knows where things are at with the current roster. He’s not clueless! (At least I hope he’s not.)

To put it in perspective, the guy you're debating with here is convinced he played Peterman because of religious reasons. 

[hondo in seattle]

6 hours ago, BigDingus said:

So I've waited until the new week to start any threads. Didn't want to come on and say "told you so," as I've been posting about our line, QB group, and glaring issues all off season but was dismissed time & time again as just being negative. 

But there's one thing I've been optimistic about, that I knew in the back of my head was just the homer in me...Our organization's ability to develop a QB. I believed this coaching staff would finally do right, and end our ineptitiude since Jim Kelly. Evidence points to the contrary however, and it's definitely a huge concern.

This staff just last week was confident & had faith in Peterman as the starter. They watched him for a full NFL season, and another off season, and believed this guy was a worthy NFL QB. Half way through game 1, they already pulled him and threw the rookie in who they clearly didn't want to start. Now he's the starter going in to game 2 because it's "what's best for the franchise" (he only made that point clear a million times). But how can we have faith he has any idea what's best for the franchise? Not even 5 days ago Peterman was what he thought was best for the franchise. Last season he thought benching Taylor, then yanking his replacement (again in 1 half) & throwing Taylor back in was what was best! He thought signing McCarron, then trading him & running with 2 inexperienced QB's as our group was what was best for the franchise. 

Yeah, why would we ever need McCarron when we got these 2 studs here locking down the fort? You already exhausted & killed any hope one of your 2 options was ever going to succeed, and with 15 games left you're already down to your last hope....the raw, project, "potential," QB who fights to hit 50% of his passes in high school & college, against Mountain West competition, and hasn't done anything in his football career, and now is asked to suddenly do things he's NEVER been able to do but against the best competition in the world!!?

I like McDermott. I think he's a good coach. I think he's a good leader. But he's shown he's already thrown up too many red flags to say he knows how to develop a QB properly, or even knows how to identify a good QB in the first place. Having a veteran on the team for the rookie to learn from & to lead your young group would've been the most obvious, easy thing to do to at least help learn the ropes & to mentor these guys, but we didn't even do that! 

All this while setting these 2 guys up with what's likely to be the worst offense in the NFL... A line that fans wanted to pretend would somehow just become good with the loss of its best players (great logic), and by having one of the most mediocre WR corps around...these 2 QB's are setup to fail no matter what they do. And with this schedule? Ravens, Chargers, Vikings to start the season? Yeah, don't worry...those defenses will surely be nice warmups for these guys

And yes, a QB getting smashed to oblivion can ruin their career & shot at ever becoming decent. David Carr was shell shocked, and took a record amount of sacks his rookie year. Allen isn't going to fare much better, and it's not his fault. The guy can't help but do what the coaches tell him, and he can't develop in conditions that aren't conducive to his success. He wasn't close to pro ready, and now he's being thrown to the wolves. Way to go McBeane... I didn't expect a winning season. I didn't expect a playoff repeat. But I DID expect you to handle this situation with respect to the position & process, rather than attempting to systematically make every bad decision that has historically ruined QB's careers.

 

 

Let's set the stage:  The Bills have the fewest number of homegrown players in the league.  In other words, we haven't drafted well in the past.  And this year we're in Cap Hell because of bad signings in the past.  In fact, we're spending less on current player salaries than any team in the NFL.   So we have virtually no talent we've drafted ourselves and we can't afford to pay for FAs.  That's what Beane  and McD are up against.  This season they have a team will little talent.   Their plan is to improve the cap situation so they can sign better FAs and draft better than the previous regime.  It's going to take time.  

 

So in this past free agency, we dumped TT to get his salary off our books and get some draft capital.  

 

We also signed AJ - the best vet FA QB would could afford.  We still had Peterman.  And we drafted Allen - a guy who many scouts and former NFL QBs believe has a lot of upside despite your misgivings.

 

Peterman - surprisingly - outplayed the other guys in preseason and won the QB competition.  AJ disappointed in camp, got  hurt, and was traded away for more draft capital.  

 

Coaches tend to publicly say they have faith in their players because players play better when they have the confidence of their coaches.  It's a well known psychological phenomenon called the Pygmalion Effect.  You have no idea what McD privately thought of Peterman.  Given what we saw of Peterman last year, I seriously doubt that McD ever considered Peterman a franchise QB.  I suspect he considered Peterman a placeholder until Allen developed a better ability to read NFL defenses.  

 

But when Peterman faced a real NFL defensive scheme playing at regular season speed, he couldn't approximate his preseason success.  So Allen's getting the starting nod earlier in the season than maybe expected or ideal.   But most Bills fans and observers expected Allen to start at some point this year anyway.  

 

I'm not sure how this series of events lead you to conclude McD doesn't know how to develop QBs?  Dallas threw Aikman to the wolves his first year.  And speaking of Carrs, Oakland threw Derek Carr to the wolves and it didn't ruin him.  Putting a rookie behind a bad line on a bad team doesn't necessarily ruin him.  It depends on the resiliency of the the QB.  I'm not even convinced that David Carr was "ruined" by his rookie year - he just might not have been quite good enough for the NFL.  

 

No one can look at this roster or Week 1's result and be happy.  But nothing leads me to the conclusion that McD doesn't know how to develop a QB.  

Edited September 14, 2018 by hondo in seattle

[The Bills Blog]

12 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Agreed on how Bridgewater ended up.  But considering there was only 1 team willing to take a very low risk on him indicates there were still concerns about his health in March.  In RETROSPECT he would clearly been the best option.

Yes, but here's the thing: is Bridgewater a Christian?

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, chris heff said:

What would indicate that these guys have a clue? If the plan was to draft QB of the future why trade Taylor? Taylor could have held the place and mentored Allen certainly as well as McCarron.

 

Do you honestly think the mentorship of Tyrod Taylor is worth more than the 65th overall pick? Some of the takes this week have been insane. If Allen is going to be good it makes zero difference which backup QB was here in his first year. I see people in this thread saying we should have signed Sam Bradford for $20 million?? The guy is a knee injury waiting to happen and he was terrible against the Redskins. By waiting until the end of free agency and trading McCarron we saved ourselves millions in cap space rolling into next year, and got a free 5th rounder out of it.

Edited September 14, 2018 by HappyDays

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, chris heff said:

What would indicate that these guys have a clue? If the plan was to draft QB of the future why trade Taylor? Taylor could have held the place and mentored Allen certainly as well as McCarron. At least sign someone that has started more than five games. Then they doubled down by deciding that going with Peterman and Allen was fine. Then they tripled down by starting Peterman. He is almost as much a rookie as Allen, two NFL starts. Now they are out of options. There are people on this site that would have done better.

 

I agree and disagree at the same time.  I was all in favor of keeping TT until we found someone better.

But you can see Beane is obsessive about two things.  He wants cap space and he wants draft capital to build this team his way.   Trading TT gave him both.  And TT was expendable because he's not the QB Beane wants.  

 

I seriously doubt if Beane's an idiot.  He certainly realized the risk that trading TT would temporarily make us worse at the QB position rather than better.  It was a risk he was willing to take to get draft capital and cap space.  

 

Before we judge Beane, let's see what he does going forward with his draft picks and the money for free agency he's freeing up.  

 

 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The preseason isn’t a great indicator of a QB’s progress (or lack thereof in Nate’s case).  As you said, teams play conservatively in coverage and then try to wrap up and tackle. They don’t break hard on balls to avoid big collisions. They don’t reveal any exotic looks designed to confuse the QB because they don’t want tape on it before the regular season. They rest guys that have the slightest bumps and replace them with backups. The best players play the least snaps. Nate is fine if you want to play a rythym passing game against a team that isn’t trying to disrupt your rythym.

 

That’s the problem though. When the game matters teams know that if they can disrupt his timing he has no chance. The play that was the best indicator was when the DL dropped into the passing lane and then dropped the INT. I think he got picked again on the next play. The DBs got right up in the receivers faces daring Peterman to make a play beyond them. They cranked up the pressure to throw off his timing and get him uncomfortable in the pocket. EXACTLY what people thought would happen, happened. It will happen again if he is ever thrust back into the lineup. That’s why he can’t play. He is just too easy to defend. The fact that we could see that but McDermott couldn’t is terrifying.

 I disagree with you and Gunner's characterization of the qb situation. The both of you are portraying it as a gross miscalculation in investing in a qb (Peterman) when it was nothing of the sort. From a consequential standpoint It really didn't matter whether McCarron or Peterman won the starting job because both of them were going to have the same role as being placeholders for Allen. The issue was always when was Josh going to be ready? So the team got steamrolled in the first game. The positive that can be taken way from that ugly first game is that it accelerated the time table for Allen. The real critical question is will starting him so quickly hurt or help his development?

 

Both you and Gunner are fixated on Peterman and his failings. They were well known before the game even started. This mediocre qb talent isn't the team's main problem because he is easily replaceable. In fact he is already replaced! 

 

The substance of this team's manifest struggles is its dearth of talent on both sides of the ball but more blatantly obvious on offense. That dearth of talent shouldn't be a surprise because this organization decided to strip some of its best talent and have a mountain of dead cap money this year in order to use it in future years. This was not a serendipitous accident. This was a planned strategy to take an immediate hit for a future benefit. 

 

Instead of wasting your time on the Peterman issue which is already addressed a more meaningful discussion is whether it would have been better to pace out the stripping of talent and cap money and do it in a more measured way instead of doing it so abruptly. I have said since McDermott was hired that the strategy was to go through a major rebuild job. In mind my this is a four year endeavor. That's what we are seeing now. It's an excruciating and bone rattling process. A lot of people don't want to hear it because they got a lot of false positives from last year's success but what is happening now is what should be expected. 

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, JohnC said:

 I disagree with you and Gunner's characterization of the qb situation. The both of you are portraying it as a gross miscalculation in investing in a qb (Peterman) when it was nothing of the sort. From a consequential standpoint It really didn't matter whether McCarron or Peterman won the starting job because both of them were going to have the same role as being placeholders for Allen. The issue was always when was Josh going to be ready? So the team got steamrolled in the first game. The positive that can be taken way from that ugly first game is that it accelerated the time table for Allen. The real critical question is will starting him so quickly hurt or help his development?

 

Both you and Gunner are fixated on Peterman and his failings. They were well known before the game even started. This mediocre qb talent isn't the team's main problem because he is easily replaceable. In fact he is already replaced! 

 

The substance of this team's manifest struggles is its dearth of talent on both sides of the ball but more blatantly obvious on offense. That dearth of talent shouldn't be a surprise because this organization decided to strip some of its best talent and have a mountain of dead cap money this year in order to use it in future years. This was not a serendipitous accident. This was a planned strategy to take an immediate hit for a future benefit. 

 

Instead of wasting your time on the Peterman issue which is already addressed a more meaningful discussion is whether it would have been better to pace out the stripping of talent and cap money and do it in a more measured way instead of doing it so abruptly. I have said since McDermott was hired that the strategy was to go through a major rebuild job. In mind my this is a four year endeavor. That's what we are seeing now. It's an excruciating and bone rattling process. A lot of people don't want to hear it because they got a lot of false positives from last year's success but what is happening now is what should be expected. 

Yeah.  do you rip the band aid off quickly or slowly.  They chose quickly.  Hurts a lot more but for a much shorter time, right? 

[mead107]

7 hours ago, BigDingus said:

So I've waited until the new week to start any threads. Didn't want to come on and say "told you so," as I've been posting about our line, QB group, and glaring issues all off season but was dismissed time & time again as just being negative. 

But there's one thing I've been optimistic about, that I knew in the back of my head was just the homer in me...Our organization's ability to develop a QB. I believed this coaching staff would finally do right, and end our ineptitiude since Jim Kelly. Evidence points to the contrary however, and it's definitely a huge concern.

This staff just last week was confident & had faith in Peterman as the starter. They watched him for a full NFL season, and another off season, and believed this guy was a worthy NFL QB. Half way through game 1, they already pulled him and threw the rookie in who they clearly didn't want to start. Now he's the starter going in to game 2 because it's "what's best for the franchise" (he only made that point clear a million times). But how can we have faith he has any idea what's best for the franchise? Not even 5 days ago Peterman was what he thought was best for the franchise. Last season he thought benching Taylor, then yanking his replacement (again in 1 half) & throwing Taylor back in was what was best! He thought signing McCarron, then trading him & running with 2 inexperienced QB's as our group was what was best for the franchise. 

Yeah, why would we ever need McCarron when we got these 2 studs here locking down the fort? You already exhausted & killed any hope one of your 2 options was ever going to succeed, and with 15 games left you're already down to your last hope....the raw, project, "potential," QB who fights to hit 50% of his passes in high school & college, against Mountain West competition, and hasn't done anything in his football career, and now is asked to suddenly do things he's NEVER been able to do but against the best competition in the world!!?

I like McDermott. I think he's a good coach. I think he's a good leader. But he's shown he's already thrown up too many red flags to say he knows how to develop a QB properly, or even knows how to identify a good QB in the first place. Having a veteran on the team for the rookie to learn from & to lead your young group would've been the most obvious, easy thing to do to at least help learn the ropes & to mentor these guys, but we didn't even do that! 

All this while setting these 2 guys up with what's likely to be the worst offense in the NFL... A line that fans wanted to pretend would somehow just become good with the loss of its best players (great logic), and by having one of the most mediocre WR corps around...these 2 QB's are setup to fail no matter what they do. And with this schedule? Ravens, Chargers, Vikings to start the season? Yeah, don't worry...those defenses will surely be nice warmups for these guys

And yes, a QB getting smashed to oblivion can ruin their career & shot at ever becoming decent. David Carr was shell shocked, and took a record amount of sacks his rookie year. Allen isn't going to fare much better, and it's not his fault. The guy can't help but do what the coaches tell him, and he can't develop in conditions that aren't conducive to his success. He wasn't close to pro ready, and now he's being thrown to the wolves. Way to go McBeane... I didn't expect a winning season. I didn't expect a playoff repeat. But I DID expect you to handle this situation with respect to the position & process, rather than attempting to systematically make every bad decision that has historically ruined QB's careers.

 

1 game into the season ?

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Yeah.  do you rip the band aid off quickly or slowly.  They chose quickly.  Hurts a lot more but for a much shorter time, right? 

In the Raven game our OL was overwhelmed. Does anyone not believe that Cordy Glenn could have been an asset for such a troubled line? Of course it would have been beneficial to keep him this year. However, he was dealt to the Bengals for basically nothing other than shedding his cap weight and better positioning this team to draft its future franchise qb. If he was a factor in getting Josh Allen I'll take that deal any day of the year. Short term pain for long term gain. 

 

If one wants to argue that it would have been better to slow the pace of rebooting the roster there is merit to that position. But my point is that although there is angst with the strategy of the cleansing process there is a logic to it. 

[xsoldier54]

7 hours ago, BigDingus said:

So I've waited until the new week to start any threads. Didn't want to come on and say "told you so," as I've been posting about our line, QB group, and glaring issues all off season but was dismissed time & time again as just being negative. 

But there's one thing I've been optimistic about, that I knew in the back of my head was just the homer in me...Our organization's ability to develop a QB. I believed this coaching staff would finally do right, and end our ineptitiude since Jim Kelly. Evidence points to the contrary however, and it's definitely a huge concern.

This staff just last week was confident & had faith in Peterman as the starter. They watched him for a full NFL season, and another off season, and believed this guy was a worthy NFL QB. Half way through game 1, they already pulled him and threw the rookie in who they clearly didn't want to start. Now he's the starter going in to game 2 because it's "what's best for the franchise" (he only made that point clear a million times). But how can we have faith he has any idea what's best for the franchise? Not even 5 days ago Peterman was what he thought was best for the franchise. Last season he thought benching Taylor, then yanking his replacement (again in 1 half) & throwing Taylor back in was what was best! He thought signing McCarron, then trading him & running with 2 inexperienced QB's as our group was what was best for the franchise. 

Yeah, why would we ever need McCarron when we got these 2 studs here locking down the fort? You already exhausted & killed any hope one of your 2 options was ever going to succeed, and with 15 games left you're already down to your last hope....the raw, project, "potential," QB who fights to hit 50% of his passes in high school & college, against Mountain West competition, and hasn't done anything in his football career, and now is asked to suddenly do things he's NEVER been able to do but against the best competition in the world!!?

I like McDermott. I think he's a good coach. I think he's a good leader. But he's shown he's already thrown up too many red flags to say he knows how to develop a QB properly, or even knows how to identify a good QB in the first place. Having a veteran on the team for the rookie to learn from & to lead your young group would've been the most obvious, easy thing to do to at least help learn the ropes & to mentor these guys, but we didn't even do that! 

All this while setting these 2 guys up with what's likely to be the worst offense in the NFL... A line that fans wanted to pretend would somehow just become good with the loss of its best players (great logic), and by having one of the most mediocre WR corps around...these 2 QB's are setup to fail no matter what they do. And with this schedule? Ravens, Chargers, Vikings to start the season? Yeah, don't worry...those defenses will surely be nice warmups for these guys

And yes, a QB getting smashed to oblivion can ruin their career & shot at ever becoming decent. David Carr was shell shocked, and took a record amount of sacks his rookie year. Allen isn't going to fare much better, and it's not his fault. The guy can't help but do what the coaches tell him, and he can't develop in conditions that aren't conducive to his success. He wasn't close to pro ready, and now he's being thrown to the wolves. Way to go McBeane... I didn't expect a winning season. I didn't expect a playoff repeat. But I DID expect you to handle this situation with respect to the position & process, rather than attempting to systematically make every bad decision that has historically ruined QB's careers.

 

We made the playoffs in his first year.  We've played one game this season.  Peterman was the choice because he played well in the preseason.  They wanted to give Allen a bit more time to develop.  It didn't work out.  Peterman is one of those guys that looks good in exhibition games and in practce, but once it's game on for real, he panics.  None of these things indicates that McDermott or anyone else on the coaching staff is deficient.  It's Peterman who is deficient and I think they know that now.  Allen was always going to be the starter.  It was just a matter of time.  You don't trade up to number 7 to get a guy and then sit him on the bench.  Peterman just couldn't hold down the fort until they were ready to start Allen.  Simple as that.

[colin]

mcd seems loyal to a fault.  that old rb from carolina, KB the slow wr from carolina, the GM from carolina, and Nathaniel "what, me worry" Peterman.

 

oh, and based on some people's opinion that DT from carolina too, altho i think he's actually a space eating monster.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

14 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The Bills and Whaley drafted OK,

 

The most laughable take in the history of laughable takes

 

[hondo in seattle]

45 minutes ago, JohnC said:

 I disagree with you and Gunner's characterization of the qb situation. The both of you are portraying it as a gross miscalculation in investing in a qb (Peterman) when it was nothing of the sort. From a consequential standpoint It really didn't matter whether McCarron or Peterman won the starting job because both of them were going to have the same role as being placeholders for Allen. The issue was always when was Josh going to be ready? So the team got steamrolled in the first game. The positive that can be taken way from that ugly first game is that it accelerated the time table for Allen. The real critical question is will starting him so quickly hurt or help his development?

 

Both you and Gunner are fixated on Peterman and his failings. They were well known before the game even started. This mediocre qb talent isn't the team's main problem because he is easily replaceable. In fact he is already replaced! 

 

The substance of this team's manifest struggles is its dearth of talent on both sides of the ball but more blatantly obvious on offense. That dearth of talent shouldn't be a surprise because this organization decided to strip some of its best talent and have a mountain of dead cap money this year in order to use it in future years. This was not a serendipitous accident. This was a planned strategy to take an immediate hit for a future benefit. 

 

Instead of wasting your time on the Peterman issue which is already addressed a more meaningful discussion is whether it would have been better to pace out the stripping of talent and cap money and do it in a more measured way instead of doing it so abruptly. I have said since McDermott was hired that the strategy was to go through a major rebuild job. In mind my this is a four year endeavor. That's what we are seeing now. It's an excruciating and bone rattling process. A lot of people don't want to hear it because they got a lot of false positives from last year's success but what is happening now is what should be expected. 

 

John, this is exactly as I see it.  Nicely explained.  

 

I don't think Beane & McD ever considered Peterman an upgrade over TT.  That wasn't the point.   Ditching TT gave us picks and salary cap relief.  Peterman ended up with the role we expected AJ to fill: a low cost snap-receiver until Allen (or a future acquisition) steps up to be the QB we really want.  

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Good input as usual Joe.??

 

It is. They traded up for a wr, drafted Dareus in easily the best draft of the past 10 years. They were ludicrously BAD at drafting.

 

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

 

 

Your telling me they had no other way to trade up then trade Cordy Glenn? 

 

I'd rather them trade off all those draft picks they had to trade up then a proven commodity on the OL like Glenn.

With all their maneuvering they got the qb they wanted. That was their priority. I'll take that outcome all day. For a generation this woebegone franchise never had a legitimate franchise qb. They got it done. If you want to get something you have to give up something. You can" what if" yourself until you are exhausted. This organisation accomplished what it most wanted to accomplish. I'm not going to complain. 

1 minute ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

John, this is exactly as I see it.  Nicely explained.  

 

I don't think Beane & McD ever considered Peterman an upgrade over TT.  That wasn't the point.   Ditching TT gave us picks and salary cap relief.  Peterman ended up with the role we expected AJ to fill: a low cost snap-receiver until Allen (or a future acquisition) steps up to be the QB we really want.  

You are astute. 

[Iron Maiden]

Bill's fan thought process.....

 

Off season : This is year 2 of rebuilding...we are getting rid of Whaley's  mistakes and the cap nightmare....it's going to be a rough year....our Oline will not be competitive...get ready for a long season...we will be rewarded for our patience in 2019.....

 

After a week 1 loss....WTF !!!  we suck !!!!....our HC and GM have no clue.....

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, Iron Maiden said:

Bill's fan thought process.....

 

Off season : This is year 2 of rebuilding...we are getting rid of Whaley's  mistakes and the cap nightmare....it's going to be a rough year....our Oline will not be competitive...get ready for a long season...we will be rewarded for our patience in 2019.....

 

After a week 1 loss....WTF !!!  we suck !!!!....our HC and GM have no clue.....

 

So much this it ain't funny.

 

[T master]

McD is a second year HC & like Petermen being a second year QB will be prone to make a mistake or 2 & i think like you alluded to he made a big mistake putting all his eggs in a basket that had 2 unproven commodities as NFL QB's & not keeping AJ around to at the very least see how things would pan out in the first couple of weeks !

 

Not for nothin I know the last game of the preseason that AJ played the entire game he proved his leadership if nothing else, sure it was against left over players of sorts but every time according to the after game interviews he would tell the guys in the huddle "we are going to do something historic today" or tell them " we are going to win this" that is what you need to win in this league !

 

No matter what is happening in the game you need a guy that can focus on the next play & forget the prior one bad or good & AJ has done that his entire career & is really good when the chips are stacked against him ! 

 

We will never know what might have been & by all accounts here most think AJ would have done no better but from anything I've seen of the NFL in the past keeping a vet QB to back up a unproven one is something most every team does & i chalk that up as a huge mistake on our second year HC's resume !!