Sadly, McDermott is the wrong guy to develop his own guys

[BigDingus]

So I've waited until the new week to start any threads. Didn't want to come on and say "told you so," as I've been posting about our line, QB group, and glaring issues all off season but was dismissed time & time again as just being negative. 

But there's one thing I've been optimistic about, that I knew in the back of my head was just the homer in me...Our organization's ability to develop a QB. I believed this coaching staff would finally do right, and end our ineptitiude since Jim Kelly. Evidence points to the contrary however, and it's definitely a huge concern.

This staff just last week was confident & had faith in Peterman as the starter. They watched him for a full NFL season, and another off season, and believed this guy was a worthy NFL QB. Half way through game 1, they already pulled him and threw the rookie in who they clearly didn't want to start. Now he's the starter going in to game 2 because it's "what's best for the franchise" (he only made that point clear a million times). But how can we have faith he has any idea what's best for the franchise? Not even 5 days ago Peterman was what he thought was best for the franchise. Last season he thought benching Taylor, then yanking his replacement (again in 1 half) & throwing Taylor back in was what was best! He thought signing McCarron, then trading him & running with 2 inexperienced QB's as our group was what was best for the franchise. 

Yeah, why would we ever need McCarron when we got these 2 studs here locking down the fort? You already exhausted & killed any hope one of your 2 options was ever going to succeed, and with 15 games left you're already down to your last hope....the raw, project, "potential," QB who fights to hit 50% of his passes in high school & college, against Mountain West competition, and hasn't done anything in his football career, and now is asked to suddenly do things he's NEVER been able to do but against the best competition in the world!!?

I like McDermott. I think he's a good coach. I think he's a good leader. But he's already thrown up too many red flags to say he knows how to develop a QB properly, or even knows how to identify a good QB in the first place. Having a veteran on the team for the rookie to learn from & to lead your young group would've been the most obvious, easy thing to do to at least help learn the ropes & to mentor these guys, but we didn't even do that! 

All this while setting these 2 guys up with what's likely to be the worst offense in the NFL... A line that fans wanted to pretend would somehow just become good with the loss of its best players (great logic), and by having one of the most mediocre WR corps around...these 2 QB's are setup to fail no matter what they do. And with this schedule? Ravens, Chargers, Vikings to start the season? Yeah, don't worry...those defenses will surely be nice warmups for these guys

And yes, a QB getting smashed to oblivion can ruin their career & shot at ever becoming decent. David Carr was shell shocked, and took a record amount of sacks his rookie year. Allen isn't going to fare much better, and it's not his fault. The guy can't help but do what the coaches tell him, and he can't develop in conditions that aren't conducive to his success. He wasn't close to pro ready, and now he's being thrown to the wolves. Way to go McBeane... I didn't expect a winning season. I didn't expect a playoff repeat. But I DID expect you to handle this situation with respect to the position & process, rather than attempting to systematically make every bad decision that has historically ruined QB's careers.

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by BigDingus

[fridge]

As much I think he’s proven to have no idea how to handle the QB situation, more glaring to me is how the team laid an egg offensively in the last two games (playoff game in Jacksonville, opener against Ravens).

 

Somehow, after failing to score a touchdown in our only playoff game this century, they failed to address anything to improve the offense during the offseason.

 

I don’t know about developing a QB, but I know that they have no idea what it takes to win this division, and frankly I’m sick of seeing guy after guy come in here and completely get it wrong.

[transplantbillsfan]

Can't really disagree with you.

 

I think McDermott needs to defer all QB decisions and trust to Dabol and we should hope Dabol is the genius McCoy claimed him to be.

 

The decision to trade McCarron wouldn't have disturbed me very much if Allen were named starter because, to me, that would have been a coach pumping up both of his young QBs: Allen obviously as the starter but Peterman would be given at least some confidence not having to look over his shoulder at another backup.

 

Trading McCarron and starting Peterman says that McDermott so obviously just can't evaluate QBs.

 

So, yes, that's a bit scary 

[Doc Brown]

9 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Can't really disagree with you.

 

I think McDermott needs to defer all QB decisions and trust to Dabol and we should hope Dabol is the genius McCoy claimed him to be.

 

The decision to trade McCarron wouldn't have disturbed me very much if Allen were named starter because, to me, that would have been a coach pumping up both of his young QBs: Allen obviously as the starter but Peterman would be given at least some confidence not having to look over his shoulder at another backup.

 

Trading McCarron and starting Peterman says that McDermott so obviously just can't evaluate QBs.

 

So, yes, that's a bit scary 

How much did Daboll have a say in this?  If he was a major part of the decision, I'm not trusting his evaluation skills either.  Hopefully, Allen can save their bacon, but I hate the situation they're putting him in.  They have nobody to blame but themselves.

[transplantbillsfan]

7 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

How much did Daboll have a say in this?  If he was a major part of the decision, I'm not trusting his evaluation skills either.  Hopefully, Allen can save their bacon, but I hate the situation they're putting him in.  They have nobody to blame but themselves.

 

Not a clue what role Dabol played in the trade McCarron decision. But I agree.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

How much did Daboll have a say in this?  If he was a major part of the decision, I'm not trusting his evaluation skills either.  Hopefully, Allen can save their bacon, but I hate the situation they're putting him in.  They have nobody to blame but themselves.

 

Completely agree that they have nobody to blame but themselves. I am kind of not surprised with how it has shaken out. I never thought AJ was really any good and I knew Peterman wasn't. Look at the way the Jets and the Browns approached building their QB rooms this offseason:

 

Jets - rookie; guy who has been a career fringe starter; guy who has started but is an injury risk.

 

Browns - rookie; guy who has started the last 3 years and proven capable; long term career backup. 

 

Experienced guys who have started games in this league, won some games in this league and demonstrated that they are at the very least competent. One ended up starting its rookie the other didn't but both were sensible plans. 

 

The Bills on the other hand went rookie; 5 starts; 2 starts. 

 

Nobody forced them into that position. They got there of their own accord. Are we really supposed to be shocked, or even a bit surprised, how it has played out? From the moment they decided to roll with those 3 I always felt like it came down to "is Josh Allen able to be good quickly?" Or else it was going to be a mess. Last week was the mess... now Josh it is over to you. 

[bills11]

2 hours ago, BigDingus said:

So I've waited until the new week to start any threads. Didn't want to come on and say "told you so," as I've been posting about our line, QB group, and glaring issues all off season but was dismissed time & time again as just being negative. 

But there's one thing I've been optimistic about, that I knew in the back of my head was just the homer in me...Our organization's ability to develop a QB. I believed this coaching staff would finally do right, and end our ineptitiude since Jim Kelly. Evidence points to the contrary however, and it's definitely a huge concern.

This staff just last week was confident & had faith in Peterman as the starter. They watched him for a full NFL season, and another off season, and believed this guy was a worthy NFL QB. Half way through game 1, they already pulled him and threw the rookie in who they clearly didn't want to start. Now he's the starter going in to game 2 because it's "what's best for the franchise" (he only made that point clear a million times). But how can we have faith he has any idea what's best for the franchise? Not even 5 days ago Peterman was what he thought was best for the franchise. Last season he thought benching Taylor, then yanking his replacement (again in 1 half) & throwing Taylor back in was what was best! He thought signing McCarron, then trading him & running with 2 inexperienced QB's as our group was what was best for the franchise. 

Yeah, why would we ever need McCarron when we got these 2 studs here locking down the fort? You already exhausted & killed any hope one of your 2 options was ever going to succeed, and with 15 games left you're already down to your last hope....the raw, project, "potential," QB who fights to hit 50% of his passes in high school & college, against Mountain West competition, and hasn't done anything in his football career, and now is asked to suddenly do things he's NEVER been able to do but against the best competition in the world!!?

I like McDermott. I think he's a good coach. I think he's a good leader. But he's shown he's already thrown up too many red flags to say he knows how to develop a QB properly, or even knows how to identify a good QB in the first place. Having a veteran on the team for the rookie to learn from & to lead your young group would've been the most obvious, easy thing to do to at least help learn the ropes & to mentor these guys, but we didn't even do that! 

All this while setting these 2 guys up with what's likely to be the worst offense in the NFL... A line that fans wanted to pretend would somehow just become good with the loss of its best players (great logic), and by having one of the most mediocre WR corps around...these 2 QB's are setup to fail no matter what they do. And with this schedule? Ravens, Chargers, Vikings to start the season? Yeah, don't worry...those defenses will surely be nice warmups for these guys

And yes, a QB getting smashed to oblivion can ruin their career & shot at ever becoming decent. David Carr was shell shocked, and took a record amount of sacks his rookie year. Allen isn't going to fare much better, and it's not his fault. The guy can't help but do what the coaches tell him, and he can't develop in conditions that aren't conducive to his success. He wasn't close to pro ready, and now he's being thrown to the wolves. Way to go McBeane... I didn't expect a winning season. I didn't expect a playoff repeat. But I DID expect you to handle this situation with respect to the position & process, rather than attempting to systematically make every bad decision that has historically ruined QB's careers.

 

I don't disagree,  he hasn't managed the qb situation properly. I think one issue is their plan kinda blew up in their face last year . They gutted the roster to fix the cap and get rid of players who didn't fit their vision and they anticipated having a terrible season.then the team got super lucky and timely turnovers and squeaked out 9 wins now they had to trade assets ..I think they figured they have a top 5 pick and could use all their picks for qb oline linebackers.however theres no excuse for Beane not addressing the line once wood and Incognito left his priority should have been to bring in replacements . I think the organization felt they would atleast get fairly competent play out of Peterman until week 7 or thereabouts where Josh could play ..can't blame them Peterman was great all spring in practice and preseason he looked like a different player ..unfortunately just like at Tennessee when the lights came on he panics .

[JaCrispy]

3 hours ago, BigDingus said:

So I've waited until the new week to start any threads. Didn't want to come on and say "told you so," as I've been posting about our line, QB group, and glaring issues all off season but was dismissed time & time again as just being negative. 

But there's one thing I've been optimistic about, that I knew in the back of my head was just the homer in me...Our organization's ability to develop a QB. I believed this coaching staff would finally do right, and end our ineptitiude since Jim Kelly. Evidence points to the contrary however, and it's definitely a huge concern.

This staff just last week was confident & had faith in Peterman as the starter. They watched him for a full NFL season, and another off season, and believed this guy was a worthy NFL QB. Half way through game 1, they already pulled him and threw the rookie in who they clearly didn't want to start. Now he's the starter going in to game 2 because it's "what's best for the franchise" (he only made that point clear a million times). But how can we have faith he has any idea what's best for the franchise? Not even 5 days ago Peterman was what he thought was best for the franchise. Last season he thought benching Taylor, then yanking his replacement (again in 1 half) & throwing Taylor back in was what was best! He thought signing McCarron, then trading him & running with 2 inexperienced QB's as our group was what was best for the franchise. 

Yeah, why would we ever need McCarron when we got these 2 studs here locking down the fort? You already exhausted & killed any hope one of your 2 options was ever going to succeed, and with 15 games left you're already down to your last hope....the raw, project, "potential," QB who fights to hit 50% of his passes in high school & college, against Mountain West competition, and hasn't done anything in his football career, and now is asked to suddenly do things he's NEVER been able to do but against the best competition in the world!!?

I like McDermott. I think he's a good coach. I think he's a good leader. But he's shown he's already thrown up too many red flags to say he knows how to develop a QB properly, or even knows how to identify a good QB in the first place. Having a veteran on the team for the rookie to learn from & to lead your young group would've been the most obvious, easy thing to do to at least help learn the ropes & to mentor these guys, but we didn't even do that! 

All this while setting these 2 guys up with what's likely to be the worst offense in the NFL... A line that fans wanted to pretend would somehow just become good with the loss of its best players (great logic), and by having one of the most mediocre WR corps around...these 2 QB's are setup to fail no matter what they do. And with this schedule? Ravens, Chargers, Vikings to start the season? Yeah, don't worry...those defenses will surely be nice warmups for these guys

And yes, a QB getting smashed to oblivion can ruin their career & shot at ever becoming decent. David Carr was shell shocked, and took a record amount of sacks his rookie year. Allen isn't going to fare much better, and it's not his fault. The guy can't help but do what the coaches tell him, and he can't develop in conditions that aren't conducive to his success. He wasn't close to pro ready, and now he's being thrown to the wolves. Way to go McBeane... I didn't expect a winning season. I didn't expect a playoff repeat. But I DID expect you to handle this situation with respect to the position & process, rather than attempting to systematically make every bad decision that has historically ruined QB's careers.

 

Answer: see Houston Texans in 2017

[GunnerBill]

44 minutes ago, bills11 said:

preseason he looked like a different player ..

 

See I challenge that assertion - and this is not me trying to be smart after the event I challenged it before Baltimore. He had a terrific first drive in game 1 against an uber vanilla cover 2 Carolina defense and after that he didn't really impress me at all. He completed a few balls - which he struggled to do on Sunday - but he didn't look a radically improved player to me.

[Kirby Jackson]

25 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

See I challenge that assertion - and this is not me trying to be smart after the event I challenged it before Baltimore. He had a terrific first drive in game 1 against an uber vanilla cover 2 Carolina defense and after that he didn't really impress me at all. He completed a few balls - which he struggled to do on Sunday - but he didn't look a radically improved player to me.

The preseason isn’t a great indicator of a QB’s progress (or lack thereof in Nate’s case).  As you said, teams play conservatively in coverage and then try to wrap up and tackle. They don’t break hard on balls to avoid big collisions. They don’t reveal any exotic looks designed to confuse the QB because they don’t want tape on it before the regular season. They rest guys that have the slightest bumps and replace them with backups. The best players play the least snaps. Nate is fine if you want to play a rythym passing game against a team that isn’t trying to disrupt your rythym.

 

That’s the problem though. When the game matters teams know that if they can disrupt his timing he has no chance. The play that was the best indicator was when the DL dropped into the passing lane and then dropped the INT. I think he got picked again on the next play. The DBs got right up in the receivers faces daring Peterman to make a play beyond them. They cranked up the pressure to throw off his timing and get him uncomfortable in the pocket. EXACTLY what people thought would happen, happened. It will happen again if he is ever thrust back into the lineup. That’s why he can’t play. He is just too easy to defend. The fact that we could see that but McDermott couldn’t is terrifying.

[todd]

4 hours ago, BigDingus said:

So I've waited until the new week to start any threads. Didn't want to come on and say "told you so," as I've been posting about our line, QB group, and glaring issues all off season but was dismissed time & time again as just being negative. 

But there's one thing I've been optimistic about, that I knew in the back of my head was just the homer in me...Our organization's ability to develop a QB. I believed this coaching staff would finally do right, and end our ineptitiude since Jim Kelly. Evidence points to the contrary however, and it's definitely a huge concern.

This staff just last week was confident & had faith in Peterman as the starter. They watched him for a full NFL season, and another off season, and believed this guy was a worthy NFL QB. Half way through game 1, they already pulled him and threw the rookie in who they clearly didn't want to start. Now he's the starter going in to game 2 because it's "what's best for the franchise" (he only made that point clear a million times). But how can we have faith he has any idea what's best for the franchise? Not even 5 days ago Peterman was what he thought was best for the franchise. Last season he thought benching Taylor, then yanking his replacement (again in 1 half) & throwing Taylor back in was what was best! He thought signing McCarron, then trading him & running with 2 inexperienced QB's as our group was what was best for the franchise. 

Yeah, why would we ever need McCarron when we got these 2 studs here locking down the fort? You already exhausted & killed any hope one of your 2 options was ever going to succeed, and with 15 games left you're already down to your last hope....the raw, project, "potential," QB who fights to hit 50% of his passes in high school & college, against Mountain West competition, and hasn't done anything in his football career, and now is asked to suddenly do things he's NEVER been able to do but against the best competition in the world!!?

I like McDermott. I think he's a good coach. I think he's a good leader. But he's shown he's already thrown up too many red flags to say he knows how to develop a QB properly, or even knows how to identify a good QB in the first place. Having a veteran on the team for the rookie to learn from & to lead your young group would've been the most obvious, easy thing to do to at least help learn the ropes & to mentor these guys, but we didn't even do that! 

All this while setting these 2 guys up with what's likely to be the worst offense in the NFL... A line that fans wanted to pretend would somehow just become good with the loss of its best players (great logic), and by having one of the most mediocre WR corps around...these 2 QB's are setup to fail no matter what they do. And with this schedule? Ravens, Chargers, Vikings to start the season? Yeah, don't worry...those defenses will surely be nice warmups for these guys

And yes, a QB getting smashed to oblivion can ruin their career & shot at ever becoming decent. David Carr was shell shocked, and took a record amount of sacks his rookie year. Allen isn't going to fare much better, and it's not his fault. The guy can't help but do what the coaches tell him, and he can't develop in conditions that aren't conducive to his success. He wasn't close to pro ready, and now he's being thrown to the wolves. Way to go McBeane... I didn't expect a winning season. I didn't expect a playoff repeat. But I DID expect you to handle this situation with respect to the position & process, rather than attempting to systematically make every bad decision that has historically ruined QB's careers.

 

 

Ridiculous. New offense, roster turnover, one game into the second year of a coaching regime, and you've decided he can't develop a QB? Seriously, that's just insane. 

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

That’s the problem though. When the game matters teams know that if they can disrupt his timing he has no chance. The play that was the best indicator was when the DL dropped into the passing lane and then dropped the INT. I think he got picked again on the next play. The DBs got right up in the receivers faces daring Peterman to make a play beyond them. They cranked up the pressure to throw off his timing and get him uncomfortable in the pocket. EXACTLY what people thought would happen, happened. It will happen again if he is ever thrust back into the lineup. That’s why he can’t play. He is just too easy to defend. The fact that we could see that but McDermott couldn’t is terrifying.

 

Yep. Because all his reads are pre-snap. If he thinks a guy is coming and he drops out into coverage then Peterman is likely throwing it to him. 

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. Because all his reads are pre-snap. If he thinks a guy is coming and he drops out into coverage then Peterman is likely throwing it to him. 

And no one shows those looks in preseason so his pre-snap reads are open. 

[bills11]

43 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

See I challenge that assertion - and this is not me trying to be smart after the event I challenged it before Baltimore. He had a terrific first drive in game 1 against an uber vanilla cover 2 Carolina defense and after that he didn't really impress me at all. He completed a few balls - which he struggled to do on Sunday - but he didn't look a radically improved player to me.

I agree with you completely ..I meant from McDermott's perspective. I wasn't impressed with Peterman at all this offseason..but the organization felt good enough about him to not sign an experienced signal caller . That's the alarming part . Not to mention the lack of production from Zay jones ...with juju and Cooper kupp picked many picks after him you start to question Beane...

[Royale with Cheese]

Kyle Williams is the last player to score a TD on our offense.

[Steptide]

I'm sure it's been said by people here since Allen was named starter, but part of me thinks McDermott wanted to start Peterman this entire season and "develop" Allen. McDermott didn't seem super excited about starting Allen, so I'm starting to wonder if it came from the top 

[Wayne Cubed]

I think the most confusing bit from McDermott was that he was going to go with Allen to start the season but then changed his mind after the Bengals preseason game. A game were Dion Dawkins sat out and they rotated the interior of the OL to simulate injuries. So he sets up Allen with a worst case scenario, to see how he handles it, which predictably doesn't go very well and thus confirms he should start Peterman based on the easy path he gave him in preseason.

[oldmanfan]

I think in retrospect that they might have gone a different direction and picked up say nan Anderson or Morre as the veteran presence vs. McCarron.  But let's step back and look at some of what's been posted here.

 

1.  Allen struggled to throw for over 50% in college and has never done anything.  Well, he threw for 56% and the offense they ran wasn't the quick 5 yard throws to wide open people.  So there's that. 

 

2.  They shouldn't have gotten rid of McCarron.  Well, maybe.  They would have had to carry 3 Qbs then.  But McCarron looked terrible in his half with the first team, Peterman looked better in preseason.  Peterman also looked better all off-season in workouts, and we don't know what went on in the film rooms, meetings, etc.  So they chose between two guys, and one had done better.  Peterman.  Why Peterman sees the deer in the headlights last week is a mystery to me; he seemingly cannot transfer his practice to real games.

 

3. Allen will get ruined behind a bad O line.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  That I thuink comes down to the individual makeup of the guy.  Allen seems pretty tough mentally.  And physically he hopefully an take hits.  It would be nice in the interior of the line decides to play football.

 

4.  McD can't develop a QB.  Well, maybe not because his specialty is as a DC.  But he's HC now, and his job is to hire guys that can develop the QB.  So Daboll will get to do that, and we will see how he does. 

 

So really, when you get down to it, what folks wanted I think is for the team to have a better O line in place, better WRs, etc. before letting Allen play.  But the only way you were going to get that all in one year was to not draft Allen (or the potential QB on the D side in Edmunds who looks like he's going to be pretty god), trade down, get a bunch more picks, and draft a bunch of O linemen and WRs.  And if you had done that, no Allen.  One can argue that one wither way of course; different people have different takes on how to build a team.  Beans and McD decided they needed the QB and the MLB.  Of course, so many people say the= only thing that matters is getting your QB, and when they make the moves to do so all of a sudden you should have used the picks the other way as described above.  But there you go.

 

So the Allen era begins.  Daboll and the rest of the O staff have a very important job now.  Allen does.  The linemen may want to actually start playing football, and the WRs may actually want to consider catching the ball when it hits them in the hands.  Should be interesting to watch.  And one last thing:  if I'm McD and Beane I reach out to a guy like Anderson, bring him in as the vet who can sit in the film room and help the kid, and put Nate either on the practice squad if eligible or just tell him it's been fun. That I think you can fairly criticize them about.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

 

So really, when you get down to it, what folks wanted I think is for the team to have a better O line in place, better WRs, etc. before letting Allen play. 

 

What I wanted was them not to go into camp and the pre-season with McCarron, Peterman and Allen as their options at QB. Again, before anyone accuses me of being wise after the event go back into the monster 30 page thread about who would start week 1. There are posts from me in there saying that I thought Allen would start because I didn't think the other two were any good.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What I wanted was them not to go into camp and the pre-season with McCarron, Peterman and Allen as their options at QB. Again, before anyone accuses me of being wise after the event go back into the monster 30 page thread about who would start week 1. There are posts from me in there saying that I thought Allen would start because I didn't think the other two were any good.

As I said above they should bring in a guy like Anderson now.  They perhaps could have gotten a guy like him vs. McCarron.  Not sure it would have made a whole lot of difference.