Ayjent Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 Just now, transient said: I think a young QB can be “ruined,” but I don’t think it’s from bad play or a lack of supporting talent on the field, I think it’s due to poor coaching off the field and lack of support through the growing pains. Case use in point, I don’t think EJ would have succeeded long term, but starting him in his rookie season when his QB coach also happened to be an OC who was in his first year in the NFL under a surly head coach who didn’t want to develop a rookie QB seemed like doubling down on his failure to me. I don’t know if this is the right staff to develop Allen, but unless we’re going to have him ride the pine until the next regime change it’s the lot he was, and we as fans were, dealt. Let’s hope they can set the right expectations and guide him through the bumps. Here is the thing about EJ - he was a much more finished prospect than a lot of fans realized - he played a lot of games in a pro-style system with good QB coaching at FSU. He wasn't some raw talent that just needed good coaching, he was an inaccurate passer and had a multitude of inconsistencies in his game and mechanics and it was maddening to all of his coaches because once one thing was addressed the others would pop back up. Someone who covered FSU called his inconsistencies "whack a mole" and it was as if these inconsistencies became more pronounced every year and especially in games against good defenses. That's why a lot of scouts didn't really see him as a NFL starter, and really the Bills seemed to ignore the book on EJ as if they were much smarter than the rest or just so sure they could be the ones to right his issues (maybe both). The coaching he got wasn't helpful either as you pointed out - he needed someone who was really good at his craft in grooming QBs. EJ would have been serviceable, but not really good - probably as good as Jason Campbell in his peak (that's not really a compliment, but I think they were similar prospects with Campbell having better mechanics).
starrymessenger Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) Professional sports is just another field of human endeavour. In all professions proper training and preparation are key components of success. The more demanding the assignment the more important the preparation. And it just so happens that playing quarterback at this level is one of if not the most difficult jobs in all of sport. There can absolutely be no doubt that the great QBs who got to sit and learn behind solid vets, not to mention HOF guys, benefited from the experience. Of course there are also examples of guys who were good to go day 1. But the examples that come to mind were all more polished than Josh Allen and less in need of development (Peyton, Troy) and in some cases (Ben, Brady) the teams they led were pretty much loaded. For a guy with such incredible raw talent JA never got the same opportunities to develop before turning pro than any of the other 2018 first rounders. And they have all gone to better teams. And only one of them is starting. What the Bills have served up here is a perfect mess of toxic ingredients. Allen doesn't even have a proper QB coach. He is squarely behind the eight ball. Does this mean he will fail? Of course not. But it further stacks the odds against him, odds that were somewhat long to begin with. If he overcomes the difficulties it will be quite an accomplishment. I hope and expect that the Bills will at least not put too much on his plate on game days. For those of us old enuf to remember when Ben and Brady took over the Steelers and Pats were careful to open up the playbook gradually, even though they were surrounded by talent to begin with. I don't recall any rook coming into the league with more natural/physical ability for playing the position than JA. They better not F it up. Edited September 13, 2018 by starrymessenger
Tatonka68 Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 All you doubters save room for your Sunday night feast, 1
Buffalo_Stampede Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) I don't think we can ever know how to properly develop a QB. All I know is you must let them make mistakes and learn from them. You must also commit fully to them. You drafted them for a reason, and it wasn't to win a Super Bowl in year 1. It takes time. Edited September 13, 2018 by TheTruthHurts 1
Albany,n.y. Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) I'm keeping my reply to QBs drafted in the 1st three rounds. One could argue that these guys rotted on the bench & were ruined by not playing them & it would be just as ridiculous as saying that playing a rookie QB can ruin him. All these players were dropped by the team that drafted them after they sat as rookies & beyond. Obviously, I don't believe you can ruin a QB by playing him, it's just an excuse used by fans & others when their team's QB busts because he should never have been drafted in the 1st place. If there was a vote who the worst coach in the NFL is, I think the record speaks for itself & Hue Jackson would win in a landslide. So what did the NFL's worst coach do? He went out and traded for a veteran QB before the draft and named the guy the starter no matter what his rookie looked like upon arrival in Cleveland. If Hue Jackson is an advocate of sitting a rookie QB, how good an idea can it possibly be. Guys who rotted on the vine Davis Webb-just last year the Giants drafted him in the 3rd round. When Eli got benched they went to Geno Smith instead of him. That zapped his confidence beyond repair & the Giants cut him before he could ever play a game because staying on the bench ruined him. Christian Hackenberg-The Jets mothballed him for 2 seasons. By the end of 2 seasons, all that time on the bench had scarred him beyond repair. Not even the mighty Jon Gruden could fix the guy. Brock Osweiler-Imagine how many Pro Bowls this guy would have been in if he hadn't been ruined by sitting behind Peyton Manning as a youngster? He withered and lost all confidence comparing himself to a future Hall of Famer. Every time Peyton threw a TD pass, Osweiler's doubts about his own abilities multiplied. Sitting behind a star like Manning ruined his confidence in himself. Ryan Mallett-Here's another player ruined by sitting behind a future HOFer. Every game Brady won, almost singlehandedly, destroyed Ryan Mallett's confidence. Brian Brohm-Sitting behind future HOFer Aaron Rodgers zapped his confidence so badly that he was cut & put on the practice squad in his sophomore year. Thinking he could resurrect this broken man, the Bills "stole" him off GB's practice squad, but just one year of watching Rodgers play had ruined him beyond repair. Kevin O'Comnell-Another one of Tom Brady's victims. Finally-Just think of the career JP Losman would have had if he hadn't broken his leg or had Drew Bledsoe to sit behind as a rookie. That year behind Bledsoe destroyed the can't miss Losman. I could go on & on with this ridiculous list, just as advocates that you can ruin a QB can make their own lists. Playing QB in the NFL is tough. A guy either has it or he doesn't, no matter when he 1st goes into the action as a starting QB. Edited September 13, 2018 by Albany,n.y. 2 1
BillsFan130 Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 No. No QB has ever gotten ruined in my opinion. You are either good enough to play, or you aren't. Mental toughness is a huge part of any sport. And if you can't shake off bad play, you aren't cut out for professional sports IMO 1
Dopey Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 Josh, Dude, stay off of social media and don't listen to what the fans say. You'll be fine.
Jay_Fixit Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 13 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said: I can name only one who I truly believe was ruined by his early coaching-RGIII. If he was allowed to sit and learn to be pocket passer then I think he would have been great but his coach told him just win instead of develop his game. So I certainly think a bad coach can ruin a QB if not simply starting him too soon. I think his knee injury had a lot to do with that.
RunTheBall Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 I think the most important factor in Josh's early development will be Dabol's game plan. He has to scheme WR open while maximizing protection for a rookie QB. Hard to do with wideouts who can't seem to catch and a sieve for an O-line. RTB
Jay_Fixit Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 There are two QB’s I can think of that were much more talented than their careers would suggest. David Carr Tim Couch I don’t think coaching ruined them, but bad environments and bad talent around them did.
Albany,n.y. Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 12 hours ago, Idandria said: Trent Edwards was never the same after he took that huge hit to the head in Arizona. He seemed afraid in the pocket after that happened, and he became Captain Checkdown. I don’t remember, but I think he was a rookie. So yes, they can be ruined. He was a 2nd year player who was injury prone in college and when you get a player who was injured before and then gets injured again, his confidence in his ability to stay healthy can deteriorate quickly.
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 They spoke to this on Mike and Wingo this AM as the conversation turned to Josh Allen. Mike agreed that it was a good call to start Nate, and also a good call to let the Josh Allen era begin. 14 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said: There are two QB’s I can think of that were much more talented than their careers would suggest. David Carr Tim Couch I don’t think coaching ruined them, but bad environments and bad talent around them did. Carr was also an example that they used
CLTbills Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 CAN a rookie QB be ruined? Absolutely. But if you ruined yours, you picked the wrong one in the first place. 27 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said: I'm keeping my reply to QBs drafted in the 1st three rounds. One could argue that these guys rotted on the bench & were ruined by not playing them & it would be just as ridiculous as saying that playing a rookie QB can ruin him. All these players were dropped by the team that drafted them after they sat as rookies & beyond. Obviously, I don't believe you can ruin a QB by playing him, it's just an excuse used by fans & others when their team's QB busts because he should never have been drafted in the 1st place. If there was a vote who the worst coach in the NFL is, I think the record speaks for itself & Hue Jackson would win in a landslide. So what did the NFL's worst coach do? He went out and traded for a veteran QB before the draft and named the guy the starter no matter what his rookie looked like upon arrival in Cleveland. If Hue Jackson is an advocate of sitting a rookie QB, how good an idea can it possibly be. Guys who rotted on the vine Davis Webb-just last year the Giants drafted him in the 3rd round. When Eli got benched they went to Geno Smith instead of him. That zapped his confidence beyond repair & the Giants cut him before he could ever play a game because staying on the bench ruined him. Christian Hackenberg-The Jets mothballed him for 2 seasons. By the end of 2 seasons, all that time on the bench had scarred him beyond repair. Not even the mighty Jon Gruden could fix the guy. Brock Osweiler-Imagine how many Pro Bowls this guy would have been in if he hadn't been ruined by sitting behind Peyton Manning as a youngster? He withered and lost all confidence comparing himself to a future Hall of Famer. Every time Peyton threw a TD pass, Osweiler's doubts about his own abilities multiplied. Sitting behind a star like Manning ruined his confidence in himself. Ryan Mallett-Here's another player ruined by sitting behind a future HOFer. Every game Brady won, almost singlehandedly, destroyed Ryan Mallett's confidence. Brian Brohm-Sitting behind future HOFer Aaron Rodgers zapped his confidence so badly that he was cut & put on the practice squad in his sophomore year. Thinking he could resurrect this broken man, the Bills "stole" him off GB's practice squad, but just one year of watching Rodgers play had ruined him beyond repair. Kevin O'Comnell-Another one of Tom Brady's victims. Finally-Just think of the career JP Losman would have had if he hadn't broken his leg or had Drew Bledsoe to sit behind as a rookie. That year behind Bledsoe destroyed the can't miss Losman. I could go on & on with this ridiculous list, just as advocates that you can ruin a QB can make their own lists. Playing QB in the NFL is tough. A guy either has it or he doesn't, no matter when he 1st goes into the action as a starting QB. Most coherent post I've seen here in a while. 1
colin Posted September 13, 2018 Posted September 13, 2018 albany said it. if you start with the contra positive, does benching the qb ruin him, you get the same hand wavey results as the starting too soon argument gets you. the only thing that can really ruin a guy, who wasn't gonna crash and burn anyhow, is injury. so if your rookie is banged up, and you only have human garbage dump qb peterman to play, then you may have to make the tough choice just to keep the rook from getting his 3rd concussion in a month or whatever. but if the rookie is healthy, and your best option, then you put him out there. same as any other position. the only difference is qb is so important a team is likely to draft a guy who isn't ready day one w a high pick for a qb, but a top 5 or 10 pick on any other position is expected to contribute right away. 1
Orlando Buffalo Posted September 14, 2018 Posted September 14, 2018 On 9/12/2018 at 9:54 PM, Batman1876 said: Sending him out on one leg to get further injured also hurt his career. I wpuld state that counts as bad coaxhing also so i agree. 23 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: He "just won" (and had an incredible rookie season) BECAUSE of "his game". Did you not see him play in college? That was his game. He had to improve his game- i think Washington curtailed his growth. 10 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said: I think his knee injury had a lot to do with that. Not arguing but his injury was guaranteed based on the way he played. He needed to be taught how to stay in the pocket.
Bing Bong Posted September 14, 2018 Posted September 14, 2018 No. If he gets ruined he doesn't have it... Mental fortitude is what makes a quarterback good. We're talking the most mentally challenging role in sports.
Orlando Buffalo Posted September 14, 2018 Posted September 14, 2018 10 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said: I think his knee injury had a lot to do with that. Not arguing but his injury was guaranteed based on the way he played. He needed to be taught how to stay in the pocket.
ColoradoBills Posted September 14, 2018 Posted September 14, 2018 Pushing a rookie QB too much can ruin him. Ask RG III.
Baba Booey Posted September 14, 2018 Posted September 14, 2018 (edited) I don’t know but f has been said, but both Aikman and Manning started early. And the both had 1-15 or 2-14 seasons. Ask them how valuable those were to them as they won Super Bowls You can either play in this league or you can’t!! Period. Edited September 14, 2018 by Baba Booey
Fadingpain Posted September 14, 2018 Posted September 14, 2018 14 hours ago, TheTruthHurts said: I don't think we can ever know how to properly develop a QB. All I know is you must let them make mistakes and learn from them. You must also commit fully to them. You drafted them for a reason, and it wasn't to win a Super Bowl in year 1. It takes time. And that reason isn't to sit on the bench and "learn." Allen was drafted to play and be the QB for this team. Glad he is finally in there. He should have been from the beginning. If he has it, we'll all know, and that has nothing to do with his record, or some magical statistic. If he doesn't have it, we'll know that, too, almost certainly by the end of the season.
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