Kim Pegula: Bills' Stadium Plans on Hold until after November Elections - John Wawrow AP Story

[The Frankish Reich]

15 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

There was one SATC episode where Kim Catrall played for the other team. Sonia Braga was her experiment. 

 

What can I say, the show was popular in the 90s

Almost enough to make me watch an episode ...

[buffalobillsfootball]

Somewhat stadium related:  New sites proposed to replace Buffalo's 'obsolete' convention center

 

Option 1: Expand the Buffalo Niagara Convention Center between Franklin Street and Delaware Avenue. This option envisions renovating the existing convention center, expanding it into what is now the rear part of the Statler building across the street and taking over the entire block north of the Statler. Sky bridges would connect the parcels. The preliminary cost estimate: $350 million to $429 million.

 

Option 2: Build one large and contiguous convention center at the HSBC site between Washington Street and Michigan Avenue. This option calls for constructing a convention center from scratch near Canalside on land currently used as paved parking by HSBC and The Buffalo News near KeyBank Center. The preliminary cost estimate: $329 million to $368 million.

 

 

Highlights of the study were shared with Howard Zemsky, commissioner of Empire State Development, the state's economic development arm. Also briefed were Mayor Byron Brown, Bills and Sabres owners Terry and Kim Pegula and key members of the state delegation in Albany.

 

Curious timing - wonder if we will start to see more attention to this post election.  If option 2 comes about - will we see a multi-use stadium/convention center emerge? 

[zonabb]

9 minutes ago, buffalobillsfootball said:

Somewhat stadium related:  New sites proposed to replace Buffalo's 'obsolete' convention center

 

Option 1: Expand the Buffalo Niagara Convention Center between Franklin Street and Delaware Avenue. This option envisions renovating the existing convention center, expanding it into what is now the rear part of the Statler building across the street and taking over the entire block north of the Statler. Sky bridges would connect the parcels. The preliminary cost estimate: $350 million to $429 million.

 

Option 2: Build one large and contiguous convention center at the HSBC site between Washington Street and Michigan Avenue. This option calls for constructing a convention center from scratch near Canalside on land currently used as paved parking by HSBC and The Buffalo News near KeyBank Center. The preliminary cost estimate: $329 million to $368 million.

 

 

Highlights of the study were shared with Howard Zemsky, commissioner of Empire State Development, the state's economic development arm. Also briefed were Mayor Byron Brown, Bills and Sabres owners Terry and Kim Pegula and key members of the state delegation in Albany.

 

Curious timing - wonder if we will start to see more attention to this post election.  If option 2 comes about - will we see a multi-use stadium/convention center emerge? 

When Poloncarz says "we" have to decide it brings up some interesting things.

 

First. that "we" is merely tokenism democracy and the reality is, both based on who got to see this draft before it was released, and the fact that developers (see: donors) and the Visit Buffalo Niagara tourism rely on and have input into this decision, means there is not decision. It's been made and Poloncarz and other political and business insiders have already made a decision on this, which is "yes" build it to support and double down on corporate welfare handouts to Paladino, Zemsky, Sinatra, Ciminell, Musk etc. so we as taxpayers and further ensure they make profit.

 

Second, if "we" as a community decide (not sure how this happens since there's not vote and no transparency in decision making) that this is a good idea, then WE are part of the problem in WNY for believing these type of projects have any benefit for the average person. Think about what a convention center is. It's a place for visitors to come and attend some conference, rent a hotel room, and consume in bars and restaurants. All that funnels money to... the same entities who bars, restaurants, and hotels we as taxpayers have already supported through some form of subsidy or outright gift. Politicians argue it benefits the region through job creation, both a convention center and the hospitality industry it serves. But in reality, we're subsidizing and supporting low wage service jobs that should be for teenagers and college kids and instead end up being careers for some because this economy is low functioning for high quality knowledge economy workers because we continue to focus on these bad projects. So who wins? Developers and politicians who continue their quid pro quo relationship whereby politicians funnel money and profit to them in exchange for campaign donations to keep them in office. So if we want this region to change, let's get away from these stupid silver bullet projects and get to meaningful change. 

 

Third, a convention center is really a dumb idea. How does Buffalo compete from November to April for conventions with Atlanta, Tampa, Austin, LA, Charlotte, Miami, New Orleans, etc. Or even Chicago or Minneapolis or NYC or Boston if someone wants to hold a convention in the northern cities. We don't, that's how. Just an absolute garbage idea. And I don't care what a consultant paid to investigate the feasibility of a convention center says when they know they're being hired to tell politicians it's a good idea.

 

Lastly, I suspect a connection between this and a Bills stadium in some way. A multiple purpose "district" is an easier sell (not that Poloncarz or anyone will sell it, they'll jam it down our throats) when you move from a stadium for 10 days a year to a stadium plus a convention center for 25 days a year. If I were these politicians, I'd triple down. A stadium that is for the Bills and UB and the convention center. UB's stadium sucks and state money funneled to the Bills through UB is easier all around sell. Although I suspect most Bills fans are OK with handing a billionaire their tax money to ensure his profit, but this STH isn't. 

 

[4_kidd_4]

Preach it @zonabb

[TheFunPolice]

It's a beautiful day in South Newstead today... just saying

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[GG]

23 hours ago, zonabb said:

When Poloncarz says "we" have to decide it brings up some interesting things.

 

First. that "we" is merely tokenism democracy and the reality is, both based on who got to see this draft before it was released, and the fact that developers (see: donors) and the Visit Buffalo Niagara tourism rely on and have input into this decision, means there is not decision. It's been made and Poloncarz and other political and business insiders have already made a decision on this, which is "yes" build it to support and double down on corporate welfare handouts to Paladino, Zemsky, Sinatra, Ciminell, Musk etc. so we as taxpayers and further ensure they make profit.

 

Second, if "we" as a community decide (not sure how this happens since there's not vote and no transparency in decision making) that this is a good idea, then WE are part of the problem in WNY for believing these type of projects have any benefit for the average person. Think about what a convention center is. It's a place for visitors to come and attend some conference, rent a hotel room, and consume in bars and restaurants. All that funnels money to... the same entities who bars, restaurants, and hotels we as taxpayers have already supported through some form of subsidy or outright gift. Politicians argue it benefits the region through job creation, both a convention center and the hospitality industry it serves. But in reality, we're subsidizing and supporting low wage service jobs that should be for teenagers and college kids and instead end up being careers for some because this economy is low functioning for high quality knowledge economy workers because we continue to focus on these bad projects. So who wins? Developers and politicians who continue their quid pro quo relationship whereby politicians funnel money and profit to them in exchange for campaign donations to keep them in office. So if we want this region to change, let's get away from these stupid silver bullet projects and get to meaningful change. 

 

Third, a convention center is really a dumb idea. How does Buffalo compete from November to April for conventions with Atlanta, Tampa, Austin, LA, Charlotte, Miami, New Orleans, etc. Or even Chicago or Minneapolis or NYC or Boston if someone wants to hold a convention in the northern cities. We don't, that's how. Just an absolute garbage idea. And I don't care what a consultant paid to investigate the feasibility of a convention center says when they know they're being hired to tell politicians it's a good idea.

 

Lastly, I suspect a connection between this and a Bills stadium in some way. A multiple purpose "district" is an easier sell (not that Poloncarz or anyone will sell it, they'll jam it down our throats) when you move from a stadium for 10 days a year to a stadium plus a convention center for 25 days a year. If I were these politicians, I'd triple down. A stadium that is for the Bills and UB and the convention center. UB's stadium sucks and state money funneled to the Bills through UB is easier all around sell. Although I suspect most Bills fans are OK with handing a billionaire their tax money to ensure his profit, but this STH isn't. 

 

 

Attitudes like this keep Buffalo mired as a 2nd tier city

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 6:56 PM, Mr. WEO said:

After Cuomo's shocking win in the primary, is Kim still going to wait to bring up the stadium until after another closely contested general election in November?  

 

...doesn't matter....Dunkirk Don's dome will be done by then anyway............

[Trogdor]

Somebody pointed out the similarity to Major League during the Spring. 

[PromoTheRobot]

26 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Attitudes like this keep Buffalo mired as a 2nd tier city

 

I had read that Buffalo actually does good convention business. Mostly regional stuff.

[GG]

4 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I had read that Buffalo actually does good convention business. Mostly regional stuff.

 

That's my thinking as well.  There's no way that Buffalo can compete with the big conventions, but I doubt they're going for that business in the first place.  Doesn't mean there isn't other business for the taking.

[TheFunPolice]

I still think it makes more sense for the Bills to play in an outdoor stadium similar to the Steelers and Browns models....

 

Convention centers need different things than football stadiums. I know it has been done in Indy but it doesn't seem ideal for the convention center part of it.

[ALF]

I wonder if the present convention center is making a profit. I hate to build where there is downtown parking lots now.  

[Hammered a Lot]

On 9/20/2018 at 12:43 PM, zonabb said:

When Poloncarz says "we" have to decide it brings up some interesting things.

 

First. that "we" is merely tokenism democracy and the reality is, both based on who got to see this draft before it was released, and the fact that developers (see: donors) and the Visit Buffalo Niagara tourism rely on and have input into this decision, means there is not decision. It's been made and Poloncarz and other political and business insiders have already made a decision on this, which is "yes" build it to support and double down on corporate welfare handouts to Paladino, Zemsky, Sinatra, Ciminell, Musk etc. so we as taxpayers and further ensure they make profit.

 

Second, if "we" as a community decide (not sure how this happens since there's not vote and no transparency in decision making) that this is a good idea, then WE are part of the problem in WNY for believing these type of projects have any benefit for the average person. Think about what a convention center is. It's a place for visitors to come and attend some conference, rent a hotel room, and consume in bars and restaurants. All that funnels money to... the same entities who bars, restaurants, and hotels we as taxpayers have already supported through some form of subsidy or outright gift. Politicians argue it benefits the region through job creation, both a convention center and the hospitality industry it serves. But in reality, we're subsidizing and supporting low wage service jobs that should be for teenagers and college kids and instead end up being careers for some because this economy is low functioning for high quality knowledge economy workers because we continue to focus on these bad projects. So who wins? Developers and politicians who continue their quid pro quo relationship whereby politicians funnel money and profit to them in exchange for campaign donations to keep them in office. So if we want this region to change, let's get away from these stupid silver bullet projects and get to meaningful change. 

 

Third, a convention center is really a dumb idea. How does Buffalo compete from November to April for conventions with Atlanta, Tampa, Austin, LA, Charlotte, Miami, New Orleans, etc. Or even Chicago or Minneapolis or NYC or Boston if someone wants to hold a convention in the northern cities. We don't, that's how. Just an absolute garbage idea. And I don't care what a consultant paid to investigate the feasibility of a convention center says when they know they're being hired to tell politicians it's a good idea.

 

Lastly, I suspect a connection between this and a Bills stadium in some way. A multiple purpose "district" is an easier sell (not that Poloncarz or anyone will sell it, they'll jam it down our throats) when you move from a stadium for 10 days a year to a stadium plus a convention center for 25 days a year. If I were these politicians, I'd triple down. A stadium that is for the Bills and UB and the convention center. UB's stadium sucks and state money funneled to the Bills through UB is easier all around sell. Although I suspect most Bills fans are OK with handing a billionaire their tax money to ensure his profit, but this STH isn't. 

 

Both properties owned by one person, Mark Croce. Same guy who cried poor to the city and got a million $ for work on the outside of the Statlet while at the same time was building a 1/2 million$ in south towns.  We already have a new convention building, it's called the Tesla building!

Edited September 21, 2018 by Hammered a Lot

[SoCal Deek]

So you’re saying on Career Day I should have gone to the booth for Rich Developers? Why didn’t someone tell me all of this before I got in the line for Cultural Studies? Rats!

[BillsFan4]

There was a good interview with Mark Murphy (Packers CEO and buffalo, NY native) in the Athletic. He briefly touched on the Bills stadium plans. 

 

https://theathletic.com/556140/2018/09/29/packers-ceo-mark-murphy-holds-court-on-playing-days-growing-up-a-bills-fan-and-his-front-office-work-in-green-bay/

(sub. required)

 

Quote

What’s your opinion on the Bills’ need for a new stadium?

 

I have a long history with that stadium. I used to work Rich Stadium security for concerts, like, 1973 to 1976. I worked The Rolling Stones, The Who, like 90,000 to 100,000 people.

The Bills have made some upgrades, some improvements to the stadium. The big question I know the Pegulas are looking at is whether it would be better to have a new stadium downtown or do a renovation in Orchard Park. I don’t think they’ve done anything major in terms of renovations. I’m going to see a number of executives from the Bills [on Saturday]. They want to see what we’ve done to our stadium. But a lot of what the Bills do is going to depend on the funding, where the money is coming from.

 

It’s interesting to hear him kind of confirm that it’s down to 2 options (as many had speculated) - build a new stadium downtown or renovate New Era. 

[Boatdrinks]

5 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

There was a good interview with Mark Murphy (Packers CEO and buffalo, NY native) in the Athletic. He briefly touched on the Bills stadium plans. 

 

https://theathletic.com/556140/2018/09/29/packers-ceo-mark-murphy-holds-court-on-playing-days-growing-up-a-bills-fan-and-his-front-office-work-in-green-bay/

(sub. required)

 

 

It’s interesting to hear him kind of confirm that it’s down to 2 options (as many had speculated) - build a new stadium downtown or renovate New Era. 

What other option would there be ?  Erie County already had a chance to do a major renovation of NEF, but passed in favor of a half step renovation that was mostly window dressing. The cost for a full renovation surely will have gone up since this was done. Anyway, it’s build new or do a full scale renovation. Nothing ground breaking here. 

[BigDingus]

On 9/21/2018 at 11:33 AM, GG said:

 

Attitudes like this keep Buffalo mired as a 2nd tier city

 

He's right on the majority of what he says though. In terms of revenue brought in compared to money the taxpayers are on the hook for, these stadium deals are always a huge loss.

They don't boost the economy or bring in anywhere close to the revenue spent on them, but they sure help the owner's bottom line. The only problem this time is unless the taxpayers put up for 70% of the stadium or more, it's unlikely that even the owner(s) would see a ROI for a long time.

The Bills don't make a ton in operating profits already, especially compared to other teams. With the salary cap raising (along with the salary floor), teams are going to be expected to pay more & more in costs. So that extra revenue from tickets, concessions, PSL's, etc. will likely go to keeping up with the growing expenses, therefore leaving the team making about the same amount of operating income as they are now.

 

As of last year, they made $67 million (which does not all go straight to the owner's pocket), so if taxpayers chip in $600 million, and the Pegula's throw in another $600 million, it'll take them quite a long time to recoup that money. And the taxpayers? Forget about it...they're not getting that money back. But the county can try to offset the costs like Nevada did with increasing taxes on various things, but people have to decide if that's worth it or not.

With that being said, I'm not against these types of deals on all fronts, as sometimes just having an NFL team to cheer for & support may be worth the extra financial burden to some. And if people accept the facts that this won't pay off in the dollar-for-dollar sense & still want to do it, more power to them. The Bills are already the least valuable NFL team in the league, and are one of only 3 NFL teams to fall outside of the 50 most valuable sports teams in the world. Maybe this can get them over the hump? If anything, it'll help ensure their viability in the area for years to come. That alone could make it worth it.

[GG]

8 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

He's right on the majority of what he says though. In terms of revenue brought in compared to money the taxpayers are on the hook for, these stadium deals are always a huge loss.

They don't boost the economy or bring in anywhere close to the revenue spent on them, but they sure help the owner's bottom line. The only problem this time is unless the taxpayers put up for 70% of the stadium or more, it's unlikely that even the owner(s) would see a ROI for a long time.

The Bills don't make a ton in operating profits already, especially compared to other teams. With the salary cap raising (along with the salary floor), teams are going to be expected to pay more & more in costs. So that extra revenue from tickets, concessions, PSL's, etc. will likely go to keeping up with the growing expenses, therefore leaving the team making about the same amount of operating income as they are now.

 

As of last year, they made $67 million (which does not all go straight to the owner's pocket), so if taxpayers chip in $600 million, and the Pegula's throw in another $600 million, it'll take them quite a long time to recoup that money. And the taxpayers? Forget about it...they're not getting that money back. But the county can try to offset the costs like Nevada did with increasing taxes on various things, but people have to decide if that's worth it or not.

With that being said, I'm not against these types of deals on all fronts, as sometimes just having an NFL team to cheer for & support may be worth the extra financial burden to some. And if people accept the facts that this won't pay off in the dollar-for-dollar sense & still want to do it, more power to them. The Bills are already the least valuable NFL team in the league, and are one of only 3 NFL teams to fall outside of the 50 most valuable sports teams in the world. Maybe this can get them over the hump? If anything, it'll help ensure their viability in the area for years to come. That alone could make it worth it.

 

That would be fine and dandy if he was talking about stadium funding and not about a convention center that brings in regular out of town crowds

[billsredneck1]

On 9/12/2018 at 4:53 PM, COTC said:

Sorry Kim,  the new guy isn’t going to give you public funds to build a new stadium. 

 

You will have to fund it 100%

 

maybe Terrance can drill another well...

new guy? ummm yeah where do you live?