D521646 Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 Ok, I know he's a great player, BUT, on every pressure he got the other night he essentially held the O-Lineman and pulled him forward, away from the direction he was attacking when he was engaged. I never noticed this before, but he did it several times. It's what amounts to defensive holding, and is called on OL every single time. So, unlike Mack, lets say, Donald, pulls on the jersey in the opposite direction of where he's going to rush, leaving the OL off-balance and an easy pressure. Why isn't this called more when DL do it, like OL? Serious question. Tim-
26CornerBlitz Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 (edited) Trump? Duck? Maybe the Boyfriend from That Girl? Edited September 12, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz 2 1 1
D521646 Posted September 12, 2018 Author Posted September 12, 2018 I should clarify that when I say pulls, what I mean is that he pulls them towards him, not away from him, which is holding, IMO. Tim-
Doc Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 I saw that as well and also thought it was illegal. 1
Seanbillsfan2206 Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, D521646 said: I should clarify that when I say pulls, what I mean is that he pulls them towards him, not away from him, which is holding, IMO. Tim- You should also clarify just who you are talking about...
Batman1876 Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 I find it troubling the way Donald wears a shirt but no pants. He's just letting it all hang out. I thought that was illegal. 1 8
LeGOATski Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 Aaron Donald, guys.... It's an interesting question. I believe it's legal as long as hands are between the shoulder pads. Because OL can also manipulate DTs this way as long as hands are between shoulder pads, I think. Someone knowledgeable can correct me if I'm wrong. 1
bills11 Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 If his hands are inside the shoulder pads it's legal. Are you saying he was holding them outside that area and pulling them ?
BuffaloBillyG Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, Batman1876 said: I find it troubling the way Donald wears a shirt but no pants. He's just letting it all hang out. I thought that was illegal. Unless hes's at the beach. Then swim trunks. Fresh out of the shower...better cover up with a towel. Disney Logic. 1
Buffalo716 Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, LeGOATski said: Aaron Donald, guys.... It's an interesting question. I believe it's legal as long as hands are between the shoulder pads. Because OL can also manipulate DTs this way as long as hands are between shoulder pads, I think. Someone knowledgeable can correct me if I'm wrong. You are taught as olineman to get up under the shoulder pads for more control . And they do teach to grab for control once there. You can not pull though on the flip , defensive players also do it and it can be defensive holding if he’s impeding the lineman You can still push, not pull or drag as oline It is easier to get away with now because in 2010 the NFL moved the umpire from right behind the Dline to right behind the Oline... defensive holdings went down, offensive holdings went up. Because where the umpire stands Edited September 12, 2018 by Buffalo716 4 3
MAJBobby Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 45 minutes ago, D521646 said: Ok, I know he's a great player, BUT, on every pressure he got the other night he essentially held the O-Lineman and pulled him forward, away from the direction he was attacking when he was engaged. I never noticed this before, but he did it several times. It's what amounts to defensive holding, and is called on OL every single time. So, unlike Mack, lets say, Donald, pulls on the jersey in the opposite direction of where he's going to rush, leaving the OL off-balance and an easy pressure. Why isn't this called more when DL do it, like OL? Serious question. Tim- That's not defensive holding. That is using the hands and playing Defense. He would get called for holding on grabbing the OL turning him creating a gab that a blitzing LBer exploits
Buffalo716 Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: That's not defensive holding. That is using the hands and playing Defense. He would get called for holding on grabbing the OL turning him creating a gab that a blitzing LBer exploits From the NFL rule book and what the OP wrote it is technically defensive holding he said Donald grabbed the lineman (legal) and then pulled him forward (illegal) defenive lineman can only push lineman when legally engaged.(grabbing) The second they pull or twist it’s holding Edited September 12, 2018 by Buffalo716 1
MAJBobby Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: From the NFL rule book and what the OP wrote it is technically defensive holding he said Donald grabbed the lineman (legal) and then pulled him forward (illegal) defenive lineman can only push lineman when legally engaged. The second they pull or twist it’s holding Where??? ARTICLE 5. LEGAL USE OF HANDS OR ARMS BY DEFENSE. A defensive player may use his hands, arms, or body to push, pull, or ward off offensive players: (a) when he is defending himself against an obstructing opponent while attempting to reach the runner (b) when an opponent is obviously attempting to block him (c) in a personal attempt to reach a loose ball that has touched the ground during a backward pass, fumble, or kick (d) during a forward pass that has crossed the neutral zone and has been touched by any player Exceptions: (1) An eligible receiver is considered to be an obstructing opponent only to a point five yards beyond the line of scrimmage unless the player who receives the snap demonstrates no further intention to pass the ball (including handing off the ball, pitching the ball, or moving out of the pocket). See 8-4-2–3 for rules applicable to Illegal Contact with an eligible receiver. (2) See 8-4-5 for rules applicable for an Illegal Cut Block against an eligible receiver. ARTICLE 6. DEFENSIVE HOLDING. It is a foul for defensive holding if: (a) a defensive player tackles or holds any opponent other than a runner, except as permitted in Article 5 (b) during a punt, field goal attempt, or Try-kick attempt, B1 grabs and pulls an offensive player out of the way, allowing B2 to shoot the gap (pull-and-shoot) in an attempt to block the kick, except if B1 is advancing toward the kicker Note: Any offensive player who pretends to possess the ball, and/or one to whom a teammate pretends to give the ball, may be tackled until he crosses the line of scrimmage between the tackles of a normal tight offensive line. https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/defensive-holding/ Edited September 12, 2018 by MAJBobby 1
Buffalo716 Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: Where??? Article 6. Defensive holding It is a foul for defensive holding if: a defensive player tackles or holds any opponent other than a runner, except as permitted in Article 5. during a punt, field goal attempt, or Try-kick attempt, B1 grabs and pulls an offensive player out of the way, allowing B2 to shoot the gap (pull-and-shoot) in an attempt to block the kick, except if B1 is advancing toward the kicker. Note: Any offensive player who pretends to possess the ball, and/or one to whom a teammate pretends to give the ball, may be tackled until he crosses the line of scrimmage between the tackles of a normal tight offensive line. https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/defensive-holding/ #2 I didn’t see it said kicking. I just thought it said player 1 grabs offensive player out of way... but on the flip it Does say defensive holding is when a defender HOLDS ANY PLAYER. Not a Runner. Then It says go to article 5 which I’m trying to find Edited September 12, 2018 by Buffalo716
MAJBobby Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: #2 I didn’t see it said kicking. I just thought it said player 1 grabs offensive player out of way... but on the flip it Does say defensive holding is when a defender HOLDS ANY PLAYER. Not a Runner. Then It says go to article 5 which I’m trying to find Posted Both. I just added Article 5 What he is doing is playing defense completely legally and stronger than any OL that goes against him Edited September 12, 2018 by MAJBobby 1
DrDawkinstein Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 (edited) Sounds like legal defense, and a way to shed the blocker. OL "Holding" isnt nearly the same as Defensive Holding. You can grab an OL and pull/throw him. The only way Donald or any DL might get called is if the OL is trying to disengage and run away and the DL holds them back. But you can grab OL and throw them around all you want, pretty much, when they are trying to block you. Edited September 12, 2018 by DrDawkinstein 1
MAJBobby Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said: Sounds like legal defense, and a way to shed the blocker. OL "Holding" isnt nearly the same as Defensive Holding. You can grab an OL and pull/throw him. The only way Donald or any DL might get called is if the OL is trying to disengage and run away and the DL holds them back. But you can grab OL and throw them around all you want, pretty much, when they are trying to block you. Yep he is a physical freak, I love watching him manhandle 320 OGs like they are WRs. So freaking powerful
DrDawkinstein Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 31 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: From the NFL rule book and what the OP wrote it is technically defensive holding he said Donald grabbed the lineman (legal) and then pulled him forward (illegal) (LEGAL) defenive lineman can only push lineman when legally engaged.(grabbing) The second they pull or twist it’s holding As long as the OL is engaging him he can grab the OL and do whatever he wants. He just cant stop the OL from running somewhere else if not engaging.
Buffalo716 Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 18 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: Posted Both. I just added Article 5 What he is doing is playing defense completely legally and stronger than any OL that goes against him Yea I must have had it confused with the kicking rule Just now, DrDawkinstein said: As long as the OL is engaging him he can grab the OL and do whatever he wants. He just cant stop the OL from running somewhere else if not engaging. Yea I had the rule confused with the kicking rule dlineman can’t grab a olineman on a kick and pull them out 1
TigerJ Posted September 12, 2018 Posted September 12, 2018 I think defensive players are allowed considerably more leeway in the use of hands than offensive linemen. I think the defensive lineman can do whatever will help him get past the blocker, EXCEPT hands to the face. When it becomes defensive holding is when the offensive player is trying to get away from or past the defensive player. If the offensive lineman is trying to pull in order to lead block on an outside run, and the defensive tackle tackles him; that's defensive3 holding. The defensive player cannot hold him under those circumstances. One of the reasons it is hoped that Phillip Harrison will become a really effective defensive lineman is his background in wrestling should help him with the understanding of leverage and enhance his ability to use his hands.
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