McBeane's way of rebuilding makes no sense

[Jpsredemption]

Your right it makes no sense. 

 

Cut talented players in favor of culture guys.

 

Not a recipe for success.

[Batman1876]

1 minute ago, Jpsredemption said:

Your right it makes no sense. 

 

Cut talented players in favor of culture guys.

 

Not a recipe for success.

What talented players were cut?

 

[Doc]

11 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

QB is BY FAR the most important position on the field.  When you see an opportunity to get a franchise QB, you have to take it.

 

MLB is a distant second, but it's still the second most important position on the field.   At the end of the second round, you get a Preston Brown.  In the middle of the first round you get a Smith, an Edmunds, a Keuchle.  

 

Those were smart team-building moves.  

 

I agree.  Meaning the highest they pick an OL is the mid-4th.  Was there anyone worth taking there (or later)?

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I agree.  Meaning the highest they pick an OL is the mid-4th.  Was there anyone worth taking there (or later)?

Teller....which they did

 

 

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

The line is in trouble, I think they knew that and chose to stop gap it this year, I'd expect it to be addressed this off season. I think there was no way Cogs would be playing now for us anyway, he'd be suspended because he has pending charges. 

The mental health issues he had were under control while he was with the team and playing football. When he left and was not attached to any team he became unhinged. While he was us and was anchored by the game he was functioning reasonably well. Without question he was our best blocker in the unit. When he left he was replaced by one of the worst blockers in the league. When all is said and done getting backups to be starters is a fool proof way to undercut your offense to perform at even a mediocre level. The outcome was predictable. And most football commentators outside of this organization recognized it before the season started. What was obvious to the outside was not so obvious to the inside. 

[Batman1876]

Just now, Doc said:

 

I agree.  Meaning the highest they pick an OL is the mid-4th.  Was there anyone worth taking there (or later)?

The only Gs and Cs off the board between our round 3 pick and our Wyattpick were , Mason Cole, Brian Allen, Cole Maddison and Scott Queensburry. Not sure if any of those guys were worth it.

Just now, JohnC said:

The mental health issues he had were under control while he was with the team and playing football. When he left and was not attached to any team he became unhinged. While he was us and was anchored by the game he was functioning reasonably well. Without question he was our best blocker in the unit. When he left he was replaced by one of the worst blockers in the league. When all is said and done getting backups to be starters is a fool proof way to undercut your offense to perform at even a mediocre level. The outcome was predictable. And most football commentators outside of this organization recognized it before the season started. What was obvious to the outside was not so obvious to the inside. 

I think his father passing away was going to set him off regardless. 

[Koko78]

5 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

Seems McBeane is intent on gutting this roster of players from the Whaley regime and doing a full blown rebuild. I have no problems with doing a rebuild, but the way they are doing it makes absolutely no sense. Moving up and wasting draft picks on two players in the first round this past year was not a smart move. If the Bills are going to be at the top of the draft in 2019, then they could have drafted their QB of the future then instead of what they gave up for Allen. It's too early to tell if Allen and Edmunds will pan out. Both guys have the physical size and traits to be very successful. I am glad that McBeane is trying to address the QB position, because it's been neglected for way too long. Maybe McBeane liked the QB's in this draft class better than the 2019 draft class...who knows. I just think it's not a smart move to use up all these picks when there are so many holes to fill on the team. O-linemen take time to develop, so I think it would have been good for the Bills to use some of this draft capital and address the O-line early. I think building up the lines on both side of the ball first should be a teams priority.

 

So using draft picks to get what they think is a stud QB and a stud MLB for the next 10-15 years doesn't make sense to you? Here's a clue: You never know what you're getting in the draft. Waiting until next year is stupid if you have the ammo to get guys you like this year. You know, ammo to move around that they aren't going to have in 2019.

[Bill from NYC]

23 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

MLB is a distant second, but it's still the second most important position on the field.   At the end of the second round, you get a Preston Brown.  In the middle of the first round you get a Smith, an Edmunds, a Keuchle.  

 

I respectfully, but vehemently disagree.

 

I don't even think that in today's game MLB is the 4th most important position. 

 

In the old days, running was far more important than it is now. You couldn't run on some of these great MLBs Shaw. Larry Czonka called Willie Lanier a "grizzly bear with a brain." Dick Butkis would injure people. Jack Lambert, Mike Curtis, Ray Lewis…..the list goes on and on.

Today, MLBs spend the bulk of their time in coverage. I LOVE a good ground game but right now it is of less importance.

 

Imo, OTs and pass rushing DEs are worth far more than MLBs. Even guards are being drafted earlier these days. Guys are going to break my shoes for saying this (oh and I totally deserve it lol) but safeties are growing in importance.

 

Now, if a MLB is GREAT, sure he will make a big difference but.....it's a passing league now.

[JohnC]

9 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

The only Gs and Cs off the board between our round 3 pick and our Wyattpick were , Mason Cole, Brian Allen, Cole Maddison and Scott Queensburry. Not sure if any of those guys were worth it.

I think his father passing away was going to set him off regardless. 

The Bills let Incognito go before his father passed away. That indicates that they were very willing to replace him with a cheaper and  lesser talent. The player who replaced him was Ducasse. A good case can be made that he should no longer be in the league let alone be a backup. Bringing in players who are serviceable is understandable as a shot term strategy. Bringing in players who are at best backups and starting them is a recipe for disaster. As the inevitable injuries occur the situation is not going to get better. 

[BoccesOnTransit]

When you have an opportunity to select your quarterback you take it. At the expense of the rest of the team. This is the lesson that we finally got right after so many years. This year will probably be a waste, but now we have our central piece to build around.

 

I'm ok if we go 0-16 this year if it means setting us up for the next 10 years.

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Getting a QB high was an absolute necessity. Far from making no sense, it was the only move that did make any sense, except maybe bringing in Alex Smith or Kirk Cousins.

 

Calling it a waste is missing the point. There are very very few ways to bring in a guy with a legitimate shot at being a franchise guy. When you have one of those chances you have to go for it even if it's expensive. They had to get a guy who might grow to become the franchise QB we've needed for so long. Unless they wanted our run of prolonged mediocrity/badness to continue.

 

And yeah, OLs take time to develop. So do QBs. But it's a hell of a lot easier to draft a good OL even if you're winning than it is to draft a good
QB.

 

And yes, moving up delayed filling the holes on the roster.

 

It's worth it. Same as in house construction, building a good strong, stable foundation delays the building of the walls and the installation of the plumbing and everything else, really. But it's necessary to build that strong foundation regardless of the delay. Same thing here. It's necessary to bring in a legitimate potential QB because it's almost impossible to get one when you have a good enough roster elsewhere to consistently win eight or nine games. You never get the chance to draft a potential franchise guy. This is the only way to get it done, and also the smart way.

 

If we're rebuilding as you say (I'm not sure I agree, but put that aside), then you have to keep understanding what a rebuild is. It's not something you do if you want to have a great chance to win the year you trade up and draft your QB. You are sacrificing the short term for the long term. Which is a great idea if the long term is very successful, and true rebuilds increase the chances of extreme success.

 

What was your prediction for the year? Did you think we'd win eight or nine or ten games? People who predicted a lot of wins this year weren't quite understanding how long it takes to build consistent success when you're switching schemes and the regime before you put you in awful salary cap shape.

Best comment I've seen in a while. Thank you.

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I respectfully, but vehemently disagree.

 

I don't even think that in today's game MLB is the 4th most important position. 

 

In the old days, running was far more important than it is now. You couldn't run on some of these great MLBs Shaw. Larry Czonka called Willie Lanier a "grizzly bear with a brain." Dick Butkis would injure people. Jack Lambert, Mike Curtis, Ray Lewis…..the list goes on and on.

Today, MLBs spend the bulk of their time in coverage. I LOVE a good ground game but right now it is of less importance.

 

Imo, OTs and pass rushing DEs are worth far more than MLBs. Even guards are being drafted earlier these days. Guys are going to break my shoes for saying this (oh and I totally deserve it lol) but safeties are growing in importance.

 

Now, if a MLB is GREAT, sure he will make a big difference but.....it's a passing league now.

I understand your well stated point but I disagree with it as it applies to Edmunds. In reality because of his length and athleticism he is very much a coverage backer. Edmunds is not an old school bruiser comparable to the LBers you alluded to. He is a new age LBer who roams all over the field. In some respect he is a hybrid safety/LB. McBeane were trying to find a MLB who fit the model of Kueckley. In my estimation Edmunds was not only a worthy selection but in the not too distant future he will be an anchor player for our defense. 

[Shaw66]

20 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I agree.  Meaning the highest they pick an OL is the mid-4th.  Was there anyone worth taking there (or later)?

I don't know.   I don't even know how good the guys are who get drafted in the first round!.

 

And I don't disagree with the notion that they probably should have gone O line instead of Harrison Philips.   There was no question the o line would need help when Woods retired.  

 

I think what happened is that they were true to their board.   I think they had Allen in the top 5, probably the #1 or #2 QB.   So they moved up for him.  Then, as Beane described it, they saw Edmunds sitting there, and they probably had him in their top 10, so moving up for him made sense.

 

Then they got to the third round, and there was Phillips.  I'm guessing they had him as a solid second round guy, and he looked like too much value to pass up.  So although they wanted oline, Phillips was the highest value.   From today's vantage point, a good guard at that spot would have had more impact on the team in 2018 than Philips.   But they preach staying true to the board.  

 

I am baffled, however, that they didn't get some journeyman help in free agency.   There must have been some guy out there with an attitude, a guy who can hold his ground.  

 

Still, I think they can be okay.  Get Allen on the field, get him on the move to give him time and let him sling it.   Once he starts connecting on passes, the o line play gets easier, both in pass blocking and the run game.  

 

I expect the Bills to be a lot better in a month than they were on Sunday.   Of course, that's not saying a whole lot, because they couldn't have been much worse.  

[Bill from NYC]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

I understand your well stated point but I disagree with it as it applies to Edmunds. In reality because of his length and athleticism he is very much a coverage backer. Edmunds is not an old school bruiser comparable to the LBers you alluded to. He is a new age LBer who roams all over the field. In some respect he is a hybrid safety/LB. McBeane were trying to find a MLB who fit the model of Kueckley. In my estimation Edmunds was not only a worthy selection but in the not too distant future he will be an anchor player for our defense. 

You know, looking at him, he resembles a pass rushing OLB/Hybrid DE than a MLB, at least he did to me.

 

He looks like a stud and I obviously do hope that he does pan out. I am not criticizing this selection at all John. I'm pissed at McDermott for other glaringly obvious reasons.

[Shaw66]

11 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I respectfully, but vehemently disagree.

 

I don't even think that in today's game MLB is the 4th most important position. 

 

In the old days, running was far more important than it is now. You couldn't run on some of these great MLBs Shaw. Larry Czonka called Willie Lanier a "grizzly bear with a brain." Dick Butkis would injure people. Jack Lambert, Mike Curtis, Ray Lewis…..the list goes on and on.

Today, MLBs spend the bulk of their time in coverage. I LOVE a good ground game but right now it is of less importance.

 

Imo, OTs and pass rushing DEs are worth far more than MLBs. Even guards are being drafted earlier these days. Guys are going to break my shoes for saying this (oh and I totally deserve it lol) but safeties are growing in importance.

 

Now, if a MLB is GREAT, sure he will make a big difference but.....it's a passing league now.

Yes, it's a passing league.  Edmunds played every down on Sunday.  Why?  Because he's more like a big safety than like a Dick Butkus.   A three down middle linebacker is a really valuable guy.   I wasn't high on his game on Sunday, but you can see why Edmunds can be great.   His decision making isn't there yet, but when he makes the right decision in pass coverage, he blankets his receiver.   He can run with the running backs, he's as big as Gronk.  

 

Edmunds is built to be a middle linebacker in the modern NFL.

 

That's a really valuable guy to have on the field.   

[reddogblitz]

8 minutes ago, BoccesOnTransit said:

People who predicted a lot of wins this year weren't quite understanding how long it takes to build consistent success when you're switching schemes and the regime before you put you in awful salary cap shape.

 

At least a decent part of this is their own fault.  We are spending cap space on guys that aren't even on the team anymore like Hotrod and Dareus yet the positions they play are huge holes.  Would seem to make more sense to pay them and get their services as opposed to paying them and not.

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

You know, looking at him, he resembles a pass rushing OLB/Hybrid DE than a MLB, at least he did to me.

 

He looks like a stud and I obviously do hope that he does pan out. I am not criticizing this selection at all John. I'm pissed at McDermott for other glaringly obvious reasons.

Yes, he does LOOK like an OLB/hybrid DE, but he runs like a safety.   Or, he looks like a Jimmy Graham-type TE.   He's just special physically, and if he learns the game, he will be an All-Pro.   

 

 

[oldmanfan]

18 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I respectfully, but vehemently disagree.

 

I don't even think that in today's game MLB is the 4th most important position. 

 

In the old days, running was far more important than it is now. You couldn't run on some of these great MLBs Shaw. Larry Czonka called Willie Lanier a "grizzly bear with a brain." Dick Butkis would injure people. Jack Lambert, Mike Curtis, Ray Lewis…..the list goes on and on.

Today, MLBs spend the bulk of their time in coverage. I LOVE a good ground game but right now it is of less importance.

 

Imo, OTs and pass rushing DEs are worth far more than MLBs. Even guards are being drafted earlier these days. Guys are going to break my shoes for saying this (oh and I totally deserve it lol) but safeties are growing in importance.

 

Now, if a MLB is GREAT, sure he will make a big difference but.....it's a passing league now.

With the taking away of headshots the middle of the field will be exploited in the passing game.  Edmunds helps there.

1 minute ago, reddogblitz said:

 

At least a decent part of this is their own fault.  We are spending cap space on guys that aren't even on the team anymore like Hotrod and Dareus yet the positions they play are huge holes.  Would seem to make more sense to pay them and get their services as opposed to paying them and not.

Except that Dareus was dogging it.  

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, reddogblitz said:

 

At least a decent part of this is their own fault.  We are spending cap space on guys that aren't even on the team anymore like Hotrod and Dareus yet the positions they play are huge holes.  Would seem to make more sense to pay them and get their services as opposed to paying them and not.

You'd think so, but that would be ignoring how important character is to McDermott.   He's telling ALL of his guys that they have to be 100% into continuous improvement, all day, every day.   If he'd kept Dareus, he would have been saying to his team, "well, the rest of you guys have to be 100% into this, but Marcell is so good that he doesn't have to."   McDermott can't say that and build the team culture he wants.

[BringBackOrton]

5 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

Seems McBeane is intent on gutting this roster of players from the Whaley regime and doing a full blown rebuild. I have no problems with doing a rebuild, but the way they are doing it makes absolutely no sense. Moving up and wasting draft picks on two players in the first round this past year was not a smart move. If the Bills are going to be at the top of the draft in 2019, then they could have drafted their QB of the future then instead of what they gave up for Allen. It's too early to tell if Allen and Edmunds will pan out. Both guys have the physical size and traits to be very successful. I am glad that McBeane is trying to address the QB position, because it's been neglected for way too long. Maybe McBeane liked the QB's in this draft class better than the 2019 draft class...who knows. I just think it's not a smart move to use up all these picks when there are so many holes to fill on the team. O-linemen take time to develop, so I think it would have been good for the Bills to use some of this draft capital and address the O-line early. I think building up the lines on both side of the ball first should be a teams priority.

 

It seems McBeane's FA pick ups/trades have been more misses than hits. Now, if these players McBeane are signing are just "stop-gap" players, then that's one thing, but if they're being counted on to be impact players, then McBeane has really screwed up. Vontae Davis, Star Lotulelei, Trent Murphy, Kelvin Benjamin, Corey Coleman, Jordan Matthews...not an impressive list of players. Seems McBeane was hoping somebody on the D-line would be free to get to the QB with Lotulelei clogging up the middle, but so far this preseason and in Week 1, it hasn't come to fruition. If Lotulelei doesn't pan out, that could be more dead cap money if he gets cut or traded. 

This is basically a fact, so then it does make sense.

27 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I respectfully, but vehemently disagree.

 

I don't even think that in today's game MLB is the 4th most important position. 

 

In the old days, running was far more important than it is now. You couldn't run on some of these great MLBs Shaw. Larry Czonka called Willie Lanier a "grizzly bear with a brain." Dick Butkis would injure people. Jack Lambert, Mike Curtis, Ray Lewis…..the list goes on and on.

Today, MLBs spend the bulk of their time in coverage. I LOVE a good ground game but right now it is of less importance.

 

Imo, OTs and pass rushing DEs are worth far more than MLBs. Even guards are being drafted earlier these days. Guys are going to break my shoes for saying this (oh and I totally deserve it lol) but safeties are growing in importance.

 

Now, if a MLB is GREAT, sure he will make a big difference but.....it's a passing league now.

This is exactly right.  Luke Kuechly is a great player and every team would love to have him.  But every team would rather have a Khalil Mack or Von Miller over Kuechly and it's not even close.

Edited September 11, 2018 by BringBackOrton

[billsfan89]

McBeane's rebuilding is actually the right way to do it. Get rid of bad bloated contracts, get rid of players that don't fit the system for draft picks of value, establish a new culture with high roster turnover, and go hard after getting the right young QB. The problem is that the cap situation from the Whaley years wasn't going to be fixed in 1 year and McBeane's limited free agency decisions haven't panned out. 

 

Once you get your QB and you don't have too many significant contracts you can figure out the rest. 2018 to me was always a rebuilding year, the team overachieved in 2017 (Finally the team got lucky one year) and but the trades need to get Allen and Edumonds gutted the team of valuable draft capital and the two big free agency acquisition Star and Murphy haven't yielded dividends at least not right away. 

 

I think come 2019 we will know just how good the rebuilding process is. They have the cap space, the big pieces in place (At least in principle) and they have another draft class.