This says it all...wide the hell open

[Shaw66]

Another thing about that video:  I said this all last season when Taylor was the QB, which is that the Bills should protect the passer not by forming a pocket that the QB steps up into.  They should form a line and keep the pass rush in front of them.   In particular, they should not let the DEs circle wide - if the DE is going to beat the tackle, let him beat you to the inside.  

 

Why?   Because if the DE beats your tackle to the inside, he's coming straight up field at your QB, not around the outside.  If you have a Taylor (or is you have a Russell Wilson), you keep the pass rush in front of the QB and you give him escape routes to each side and backward.   Wilson does it all the time.  Brees does, too.  When you form a pocket, you force your QB to move up and then squirm around, trying to find a way out.   And if your line isn't very good, that pocket gets small in a hurry, and your QB is trapped. 

 

On this play, the Bills formed the line, not a pocket.   Peterman stepped up, when he would have been better off to step back.   I know that stepping up is the classic way to do it, but that's the point at which you have to consider your personnel instead of just the theory.   Seattle and New Orleans figured this out years ago and let Wilson do the unconventional thing.   A standard pocket is trouble, especially for a small QB, and Seattle lets him run from trouble.   

 

Allen doesn't have a height problem, but he's already shown he has the mobility to get away from the rush.   On this play, if he were trained to step back, he would have had the time to make the throw.  When his line gets better, he can step up, but until that happens, put the guy into position to make plays.  

[oldmanfan]

What this stuff shows to me is what young QBs go through.  They have to get the game to slow down for them enough to make plays.  They have to get enough experience to make those pre-snap reads and get the ball to the right guy.  Of course, it  is also on the OC to design plays that get guys open, and then the WRs have to actually win their battles.  But young QBs have to get the game to slow down.

 

Peterman is having trouble with that.  Allen it seems to me might catch on fairly quickly, in that he showed an ability to recognize when to get out of the pocket, etc.  It is the rare young QB that can do it quickly.  Didn't get a chance to watch last night, but it could be that Darnold might be one of those rare fins.

[outsidethebox]

Good lord let it go!!!

Nate was chosen by the headcoach to start the game! He never stood a chance. No one on the Bills stood a chance beating Baltimore sunday. Is he a good player, probably not. But to show so much disdain for him is stupid. Blame the coach, it was his choice.

[Bring it]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Another thing about that video:  I said this all last season when Taylor was the QB, which is that the Bills should protect the passer not by forming a pocket that the QB steps up into.  They should form a line and keep the pass rush in front of them.   In particular, they should not let the DEs circle wide - if the DE is going to beat the tackle, let him beat you to the inside.  

 

Why?   Because if the DE beats your tackle to the inside, he's coming straight up field at your QB, not around the outside.  If you have a Taylor (or is you have a Russell Wilson), you keep the pass rush in front of the QB and you give him escape routes to each side and backward.   Wilson does it all the time.  Brees does, too.  When you form a pocket, you force your QB to move up and then squirm around, trying to find a way out.   And if your line isn't very good, that pocket gets small in a hurry, and your QB is trapped. 

 

On this play, the Bills formed the line, not a pocket.   Peterman stepped up, when he would have been better off to step back.   I know that stepping up is the classic way to do it, but that's the point at which you have to consider your personnel instead of just the theory.   Seattle and New Orleans figured this out years ago and let Wilson do the unconventional thing.   A standard pocket is trouble, especially for a small QB, and Seattle lets him run from trouble.   

 

Allen doesn't have a height problem, but he's already shown he has the mobility to get away from the rush.   On this play, if he were trained to step back, he would have had the time to make the throw.  When his line gets better, he can step up, but until that happens, put the guy into position to make plays.  

Exactly!! The Qb and o-line have to be on the same page as far as blocking scheme. It needs to be done to maximize the skill set of the Qb. To give him as much time as possible. Aaron Rodgers is a master at this. Which spells doom for defenses when he and his O-line are in sync.

[mabden]

31 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I couldn't hear the audio, but it's clear looking at it that Peterman didn't have time to make the deep throw.  He was in serious trouble.   

 

Your point is the important point:  Nate's essentially a rookie.  Allen's a rookie.   Allen has the physical ability to have hit the slot receiver on the left for a decent short gain and also the physical ability to have gotten out of the mess and found the deep man; Nate doesn't have that ability and can't learn it.   Whatever marginal edge Nate may have in the experience department is easily outweighed by the things that only Allen can do.  

 

When I watch the video of all of Allen's throws against the Ravens, I see a guy who looks the top 10 QBs in the league - pocket awareness, escapability, quick release, accurate throws.  Darnold was excellent last night, and Allen looks the same.  

I agree, but that anticipation throw is really tough for a rookie to make (and I consider Peterman a rookie).  Rodgers would launch it, but rookies generally don't have that confidence.   

 

However, it seems to me that what a smart rookie does, what I could imagine Allen doing, is as you say, recognize at the line that what the defense is giving him and be prepared to bail out of the pocket early to buy the time necessary to find Kerley.   Allen has the ability, the arm strength, for example, to back pedal a few steps to buy that time and still get enough on the ball to reach Kerley downfield.  If not backpedal, escape left or right just a few steps and then throw.  Point is, the thinking at the line is "I've got my man in the seam, I need time to verify before I throw, and I might need to move to get the time."   

 

The problem, of course, is getting your rookie to do all that thinking.   The important point is that when both Allen and Peterman have mastered the thinking, only one of them has the physical tools to make the throw.    

 

People may blast me for this, but Allen already can make throws like Rodgers does - all kinds of positions, all kinds of pace.   He needs to learn to think like Rodgers, and the only he can learn that is on the field.  

All great points and I agree with every one of them except lack of confidence on Allen's part.    From what I can see in the young man, he has no fear.    From watching Allen's college games, he has plenty of experience running for his life behind an at best, average line.

[Mickey]

Can we stop calling Nate a rookie? He isn't a rookie, this is his second year. He has had two off seasons full of workouts, he has had two preseasons and he went through an entire year as the No. 2 QB for an NFL franchise including two starts. He had a year to learn from a veteran, seasoned QB in Tyrod Taylor. He is not a rookie. Josh Allen still has a drawer full of Wyoming Cowboys t-shirts and his name, address and parent's phone number pinned to his mittens. Josh Allen is a rookie. One off season and one preseason where he spent his time sharing reps with two other QB's and learning what little he could from one never-was QB and another never-will-be QB. It's like trying to learn how to drive by watching Helen Keller drive a golf cart. Nate may not be a seasoned veteran but he is most definitely not a rookie. 

 

 

[LabattBlue]

Peterman sucks, we get it.  That being said, there are WR's coming open on plays every game.  When there are 5 WR's running routes, there are going to be times when the QB misses an open one...both the great QB's and the crappy ones.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

Peterman sucks, we get it.  That being said, there are WR's coming open on plays every game.  When there are 5 WR's running routes, there are going to be times when the QB misses an open one...both the great QB's and the crappy ones.

 

When you throw for 24 yards, you're missing a lot.  I mean a lot.

11 minutes ago, Mickey said:

Can we stop calling Nate a rookie? He isn't a rookie, this is his second year. He has had two off seasons full of workouts, he has had two preseasons and he went through an entire year as the No. 2 QB for an NFL franchise including two starts. He had a year to learn from a veteran, seasoned QB in Tyrod Taylor. He is not a rookie. Josh Allen still has a drawer full of Wyoming Cowboys t-shirts and his name, address and parent's phone number pinned to his mittens. Josh Allen is a rookie. One off season and one preseason where he spent his time sharing reps with two other QB's and learning what little he could from one never-was QB and another never-will-be QB. It's like trying to learn how to drive by watching Helen Keller drive a golf cart. Nate may not be a seasoned veteran but he is most definitely not a rookie. 

 

 

 

Not only that but he came from a pro style offense in college too.  

[NewEraBills]

I mean as soon as the football is snapped, watch Dawkins vs Za'Darius Smith.  DAMN!!!!!  Not many QB's will be comfortable with that lack of a pocket.

[HeHateMe]

That linked vid on page 1 shows how terrible our O line is.  Their 4 man run rush blasts through our 5 lineman.  Peterman should have thrown to Clay but hard to really fault him for not seeing the other side of the field.

Edited September 11, 2018 by HeHateMe

[Kwai San]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

It’s as I often say...there’s someone open on almost every play. The experienced good quarterback will find them. And the really good ones know which receiver it will be before the ball is snapped, just by scanning the defense. Nate is neither. Not yet anyway.

 

Not now....not ever.

[Julio Hopkins]

Jordan Mills might be our best offensive lineman at this point.  ?

[Watkins90]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is true, but I think Cover1’s point is that when he comes to the line, Nate should be able to assess the pattern and diagnose that single high safety/2 LB set means the seam will be open, and he should expect to find Kerley (#10) there open.  Kerley is raising his hand yelling “pick me pick me” at the point where the pocket collapses, but he appears to have finished his route at that point and presumably a throw with anticipation would have gotten to him moments earlier, before the pocket collapsed.

 

The point is that finding Clay (who was in the slot) was not what the D was givin him.

It's what the good QBs do. The good WB knows he has a single high safety, so he starts his read to the left to draw the safety and the immediately goes to the seam route. 

[Wayne Cubed]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is true, but I think Cover1’s point is that when he comes to the line, Nate should be able to assess the pattern and diagnose that single high safety/2 LB set means the seam will be open, and he should expect to find Kerley (#10) there open.  Kerley is raising his hand yelling “pick me pick me” at the point where the pocket collapses, but he appears to have finished his route at that point and presumably a throw with anticipation would have gotten to him moments earlier, before the pocket collapsed.

 

The point is that finding Clay (who was in the slot) was not what the D was givin him.

 

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Except he did have time to throw, and the point is where does a QB start his progressions given the defensive set before the snap.  No play can be “designed to get particular people open” in the abstract, the QB has to read the D and see who’ll be open.

 

This is right but I'd say it's not pre snap, because NP knows where he is going pre snap. It's the moments directly after the snap of the ball, the post snap movement, that he doesn't adjust to. The single high safety is covering the seam pre snap, it's double covered. But then look right after the ball is snapped, Weddle turns his back to the seam and drifts towards the left hash marks. He's following Nates eyes. At this point, :23 secs, the LB covering Kearly isn't watching NP and is just about to let Kearly run past him. NP is too locked in on Clay and waiting for him to get open and hasn't diagnosed the play. He misses all of this and he misses Kearly breaking open in the seam when there is still protection. 

[JMF2006]

44 minutes ago, mabden said:

All great points and I agree with every one of them except lack of confidence on Allen's part.    From what I can see in the young man, he has no fear.    From watching Allen's college games, he has plenty of experience running for his life behind an at best, average line.

 

I agree,let him play.

 

He was on a sub standard team at Wyoming and he got drafted high to another one.

 

He has more zip on the ball off his back foot  than NP does stepping into the throw.

 

After a few games things will slow down and he may totally amaze us if he is still alive

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is true, but I think Cover1’s point is that when he comes to the line, Nate should be able to assess the pattern and diagnose that single high safety/2 LB set means the seam will be open, and he should expect to find Kerley (#10) there open.  Kerley is raising his hand yelling “pick me pick me” at the point where the pocket collapses, but he appears to have finished his route at that point and presumably a throw with anticipation would have gotten to him moments earlier, before the pocket collapsed.

 

The point is that finding Clay (who was in the slot) was not what the D was givin him.

 

Also based on the pre snap alignment Kerley is matched up on a linebacker.  As soon as single high safety cheats left look right. 

[BananaB]

Must be something he learned from Taylor after his year on the bench. 

[Bring it]

50 minutes ago, mabden said:

All great points and I agree with every one of them except lack of confidence on Allen's part.    From what I can see in the young man, he has no fear.    From watching Allen's college games, he has plenty of experience running for his life behind an at best, average line.

It appears to me  that to Josh Allen pressure is just part of football! It doesn’t seem to bother him!

Even when the defense is trash talking and taking cheap shots at your head! As Jurod of the Ravens did on Sunday!

[Cash]

44 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Peterman sucks, we get it.  That being said, there are WR's coming open on plays every game.  When there are 5 WR's running routes, there are going to be times when the QB misses an open one...both the great QB's and the crappy ones.

 

I was told that only Tyrod missed open receivers.  Now apparently it's other QBs, too?!

In all seriousness, this is an interesting specific example of Peterman sucking.  The bill of goods we were sold by the Petermaniacs was that he's smart/good at reading defenses, and will get the ball out quickly to the right read, and that will make up for his physical limitations.  In the cover1 video, Peterman fails to read the defense and also fails to get the ball out quickly.  He did have time for a 3-step drop and throw to his first read, but his first read was well covered and could've easily been a pick 6 if he made the throw.  If he was better at reading the defense pre-snap, there was a play to be made, but he isn't.

 

During the game, I was saying that Peterman should continue to start (and stink) through the first 4-5 games, because those are brutal defenses and we can "protect" Allen that way.  But the more I read, the more I think that Peterman just isn't qualified to be on an NFL roster, and starting him is indefensible.  Certainly if he starts again and still plays like this, he can't keep playing.  Honestly, if he has a third historically bad start, it's hard to justify keeping him on the roster at all.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

1 hour ago, Epstein's Mother said:

It appeared to me on many pass plays that Peterman has a tendency to stare down his first read.  I'm not sure that he has the ability to go through his progression much less his second read.

It's a Bills quarterback thing.  A less than offensive line would help.