vincec Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Again, his ranking isn't based on so far. He's projecting based on what he's seen from the perspective of what QBs hang their hats on in the NFL and that's the things I already mentioned (being able to make good decisions based on his ability to process information and then deliver the ball with timing, anticipation, and accuracy.) with Rosen showing that in many games irrespective of his current situation. In other words, he is guessing. Just like everyone that is projecting who will be the best.
26CornerBlitz Posted December 21, 2018 Author Posted December 21, 2018 Just now, vincec said: In other words, he is guessing. Just like everyone that is projecting who will be the best. Educated guessing or projecting based on the QB traits he's seen on film. Call it whatever you want.
34-78-83 Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Again, his ranking isn't based on so far. He's projecting based on what he's seen from the perspective of what QBs hang their hats on in the NFL and that's the things I already mentioned (being able to make good decisions based on his ability to process information and then deliver the ball with timing, anticipation, and accuracy.) with Rosen showing that in many games irrespective of his current situation. I already understood that and I just disagree and I don't think film is needed to see it. I appreciate you trying to help with Greg's angle but I've heard him enough to know his general overview and philosophy. And his measure is " based on how the QBs have looked on film so far". So maybe his film is showing him that Rosen can turn into a Bradford type passer. That's just dandy. And I'll be happy with a guy who is athletic and sturdy as hell, throws mostly (will never be perfect here but plenty to succeed it appears) accurate lasers all over the width and depth of the field and generally scares the living crap out of defenses... The non-film related portion (infectious and positive, confident vibe, already a leader) would pull Josh even further away at this stage of their development.
vincec Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 58 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Rosen is saddled with an OL that is the worst in the NFL IMO and his arm is plenty good enough as is his mobility within the pocket. He's constantly under siege and has no running game to lean on. Rosenthal is making a long term projection vs. the right now snap shots that you also seem to be hung up on. He's remains a very good NFL prospect regardless of his current situation with a projection of being able to make good decisions based on his ability to process information and then deliver the ball with timing, anticipation, and accuracy. The only comment I would have is that he seems to be adjusting future potential based on the quality of the QBs current supporting cast. If a QB has a bad supporting cast or coaching then you can say "he looks good considering he has a bad supporting cast," but if that cast doesn't improve then chances are high that he will develop bad habits, lose his confidence and/or get injured. So bad support is bad for his future possibilities, not good. Rosen, Allen and Darnold aren't in any better position to develop in the future than Mayfield or Jackson are, IMO. You might say they're in worse position actually.
26CornerBlitz Posted December 21, 2018 Author Posted December 21, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said: I already understood that and I just disagree and I don't think film is needed to see it. I appreciate you trying to help with Greg's angle but I've heard him enough to know his general overview and philosophy. And his measure is " based on how the QBs have looked on film so far". So maybe his film is showing him that Rosen can turn into a Bradford type passer. That's just dandy. And I'll be happy with a guy who is athletic and sturdy as hell, throws mostly (will never be perfect here but plenty to succeed it appears) accurate lasers all over the width and depth of the field and generally scares the living crap out of defenses... The non-film related portion (infectious and positive, confident vibe, already a leader) would pull Josh even further away at this stage of their development. So you're basing it only what as Bills' fan? I guess both Benoit and Rosenthal are conspiring to arrive at the same conclusion that ranks Rosen ahead of Allen not that what either one of them thinks matters. 1 minute ago, vincec said: The only comment I would have is that he seems to be adjusting future potential based on the quality of the QBs current supporting cast. If a QB has a bad supporting cast or coaching then you can say "he looks good considering he has a bad supporting cast," but if that cast doesn't improve then chances are high that he will develop bad habits, lose his confidence and/or get injured. So bad support is bad for his future possibilities, not good. Rosen, Allen and Darnold aren't in any better position to develop in the future than Mayfield or Jackson are, IMO. You might say they're in worse position actually. No one who's objective would say that. Edited December 21, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz
MJS Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 1 hour ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Rosen is saddled with an OL that is the worst in the NFL IMO and his arm is plenty good enough as is his mobility within the pocket. He's constantly under siege and has no running game to lean on. Rosenthal is making a long term projection vs. the right now snap shots that you also seem to be hung up on. He's remains a very good NFL prospect regardless of his current situation with a projection of being able to make good decisions based on his ability to process information and then deliver the ball with timing, anticipation, and accuracy. Arizona is in fact last in the league in rushing yards. However, they are also one of the last ranked teams in rushing attempts (28th). It seems to me like they should be at least attempting to run it more. David Johnson is a serviceable starter. But yeah, they are a pretty bad team. Tough to evaluate a QB when he doesn't have a decent supporting cast or a decent oline. Everyone has been defending Allen with with those same arguments, that the oline is terrible and the receivers are some of the worst in the league. The difference right now between the two is that Allen has some grit and the ability to elevate the guys around him a little bit. He is showing the ability to put the team on his back at times. But we can have this conversation 2 years from now and have a better sense.
34-78-83 Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: So you're basing it only what as Bills' fan? I guess both Benoit and Rosenthal are conspiring to arrive at the same conclusion that ranks Rosen ahead of Allen not that what either one of them thinks matters. Those are 2 random dudes. Plenty feel otherwise I am sure. If all else was equal with the franchises, would anyone currently take Rosen over Allen? I doubt more than 20% would. No need to continue this further really. Cover1 does excellent film reviews...just a side comment
26CornerBlitz Posted December 21, 2018 Author Posted December 21, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, MJS said: Arizona is in fact last in the league in rushing yards. However, they are also one of the last ranked teams in rushing attempts (28th). It seems to me like they should be at least attempting to run it more. David Johnson is a serviceable starter. But yeah, they are a pretty bad team. Tough to evaluate a QB when he doesn't have a decent supporting cast or a decent oline. Everyone has been defending Allen with with those same arguments, that the oline is terrible and the receivers are some of the worst in the league. The difference right now between the two is that Allen has some grit and the ability to elevate the guys around him a little bit. He is showing the ability to put the team on his back at times. But we can have this conversation 2 years from now and have a better sense. Allen has been impressive in these last few weeks after coming back from the elbow injury. It seems that the game has slowed down for him but he's also been helped by Daboll as well as the emergence of Foster and McKenzie as receivers. 2 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said: Those are 2 random dudes. Plenty feel otherwise I am sure. If all else was equal with the franchises, would anyone currently take Rosen over Allen? I doubt more than 20% would. No need to continue this further really. Cover1 does excellent film reviews...just a side comment Two random dudes. You're making up numbers to back up your points Edited December 21, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz
Dr. Who Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, MJS said: Arizona is in fact last in the league in rushing yards. However, they are also one of the last ranked teams in rushing attempts (28th). It seems to me like they should be at least attempting to run it more. David Johnson is a serviceable starter. But yeah, they are a pretty bad team. Tough to evaluate a QB when he doesn't have a decent supporting cast or a decent oline. Everyone has been defending Allen with with those same arguments, that the oline is terrible and the receivers are some of the worst in the league. The difference right now between the two is that Allen has some grit and the ability to elevate the guys around him a little bit. He is showing the ability to put the team on his back at times. But we can have this conversation 2 years from now and have a better sense. Of course, two years from now, no one will have to speculate. We'll simply know who is working out and who is a miss. Imo, the analytics fellas who were high on Rosen before the draft are going to continue to favor him despite his generally poor performance, albeit with suasive mitigating factors. Basically, any ranking that has Rosen ahead of Allen is a continuation of pre-draft judgment, because the actual football play should favor Allen. Since returning from injury, Allen's play is arrow up; Rosen's is not.
MJS Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 10 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: Of course, two years from now, no one will have to speculate. We'll simply know who is working out and who is a miss. Imo, the analytics fellas who were high on Rosen before the draft are going to continue to favor him despite his generally poor performance, albeit with suasive mitigating factors. Basically, any ranking that has Rosen ahead of Allen is a continuation of pre-draft judgment, because the actual football play should favor Allen. Since returning from injury, Allen's play is arrow up; Rosen's is not. But Allen continues to be a fairly ineffective passer. There's a lot of reasons for that, including a bad oline, drops and throw aways, and also some accuracy issues due to inconsistent mechanics on Allen's part. He needs to show big improvement as a passer. His leadership, his running ability, and his grit are top notch.
Flip Johnson Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 There is a weird desire in some portion of the analytics community to actively dislike the biggest, strongest, fastest guy with the best arm. 2
H2o Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 11 hours ago, Mat68 said: He is a more efficient passer and rusher. He has more yards on half the rushes. Rusher I will admit to a certain extent. As a passer? Is that "according to the numbers"? Have you actually watched him play? I have. Allen's ceiling is CERTAINLY higher. He isn't even better than Josh right now. He also has a better team around him, especially along the OL.
34-78-83 Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 22 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Two random dudes. You're making up numbers to back up your points Yes, amongst the hundreds of qualified analysts out there that also do film review and talk /write about it they are 2 of them. How would you vote? Who did AZ want to draft in the 1st place? Why play hard-core contrarian on this with such gusto?
Dr. Who Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 1 minute ago, MJS said: But Allen continues to be a fairly ineffective passer. There's a lot of reasons for that, including a bad oline, drops and throw aways, and also some accuracy issues due to inconsistent mechanics on Allen's part. He needs to show big improvement as a passer. His leadership, his running ability, and his grit are top notch. I'm not agruing that Allen doesn't need to improve as a passer. I do think his inaccuracy is exaggerated by his critics. His actual play has improved to the point where one can plausibly argue that he is elevating the play of the team around him to a degree. My optimism about Allen, however, is not based on his current level of play, but on projection and on the assumption that the talent level around him will be significantly increased. One can project Rosen to improve a lot with better coaching and players around him, but right now, just based on his play, he looks bad. I watched the first half of his game against a lackluster and injury depleted Atlanta Falcons' defense and he threw a pick six, another int, and fumbled. All contributed to Atlanta points. I can certainly understand why Rosen would be dejected and his line is atrocious. All the same, he simply did not have any fire or a hint of leadership. So to reiterate my main assertion, based on current play alone, Allen is ahead of Rosen. 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 It will be very interesting to visit this thread in 2 years. 1
Dr. Who Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said: It will be very interesting to visit this thread in 2 years. If both Rosen and Allen hit their ceilings, Allen will turn out the better player.
syhuang Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 31 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Allen has been impressive in these last few weeks after coming back from the elbow injury. It seems that the game has slowed down for him but he's also been helped by Daboll as well as the emergence of Foster and McKenzie as receivers. Two random dudes. You're making up numbers to back up your points
26CornerBlitz Posted December 21, 2018 Author Posted December 21, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said: Yes, amongst the hundreds of qualified analysts out there that also do film review and talk /write about it they are 2 of them. How would you vote? Who did AZ want to draft in the 1st place? Why play hard-core contrarian on this with such gusto? What's hardcore is the Allen bunker brigade who rush in to attack any analyst who projects Rosen to be a better QB in the long term without actually doing any film study themselves to offer an informed opinion. How do I vote? I think both have the potential to be good players in the NFL just as the rest of the 2018 1st round QBs do. What any of the analysts thinks regardless of who they have in any order matters not one bit regarding what will actually occur and I feel no need to reflexively challenge what they state for the record. 14 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: I'm not agruing that Allen doesn't need to improve as a passer. I do think his inaccuracy is exaggerated by his critics. His actual play has improved to the point where one can plausibly argue that he is elevating the play of the team around him to a degree. My optimism about Allen, however, is not based on his current level of play, but on projection and on the assumption that the talent level around him will be significantly increased. One can project Rosen to improve a lot with better coaching and players around him, but right now, just based on his play, he looks bad. I watched the first half of his game against a lackluster and injury depleted Atlanta Falcons' defense and he threw a pick six, another int, and fumbled. All contributed to Atlanta points. I can certainly understand why Rosen would be dejected and his line is atrocious. All the same, he simply did not have any fire or a hint of leadership. So to reiterate my main assertion, based on current play alone, Allen is ahead of Rosen. The Falcons simply overwhelmed the Cardinals OL and how about explaining how the pick six happened which was on a batted ball at the LoS. Edited December 21, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz 1
Dr. Who Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 Just now, 26CornerBlitz said: The Falcons simply overwhelmed the Cardinals OL and how about explaining how the pick six happened which was on a batted ball at the LoS. Rosen throws a fair number of batted balls, for whatever reason.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 21, 2018 Posted December 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Dr. Who said: If both Rosen and Allen hit their ceilings, Allen will turn out the better player. I HATE the turn ceilings. What is Allen’s ceiling? Jamarcus Russell and Jake Locker has high ceilings. He wasn’t even that good in MWC. All of sudden on the nfl level, he is magically going to become a far superior player than he was in college? How often does that happen? they are both very different players. I liked Rosen more and still think the way he plays is the easiest way to be a franchise type qb. But he also thought he’s be further along than Allen so kudos to Allen. But they are both qbs with ratings in the 60s, which is awful, so they have a long way to go.
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