Bangarang Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 33 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Did you watch the Bengals game? Why is pointing out the different opposing competition faced by the 2 QBs during the preseason evaluation process. "stupid"? Is it more stupid than saying "it doesn't matter who they faced, the guy who played against nobodies played better"? Why even point that out, in fact? Going by your logic, no QB competition would ever be fair then. It would be impossible to have each QB face the exact set of circumstances.
pimp on da' net Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Gugny said: Here is his entire body of work. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PeteNa00/gamelog/2017/ A rookie backup thrown into a game vs. a formidable defense on the road with minimal preparation had a horrible half of football. Color me shocked. A rookie late round pick looks shaky in playing time that included a grand total of 49 attempted passes ... again ... say it ain't so! Overall, through 4 games of action, his stats are typical rookie stats. This sounds like NP was named the starter of the Chargers game, on game day. He had a weeks preparations but I digress... You can't have it both ways with this guy. You previously stated that he was an upgrade over TT (another late round draft pick), with an overall regular season winning record, and by your own admission NP is a typical (sic) limited rookie QB. How is he an upgrade? I have stated on the record that TT is very limited as a QB but each week he didn't hurt the team with turnovers and NP scares the life out of me because he is limited as well but adds the sacks & turnover effect to the equation which will equate to a very long season for this Bills fan. My hope is that I'm wrong and NP plays lights out but J. Allen is developing so well that he takes over after the bye week! ? Go Bills!
JohnC Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 9 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said: Not if you looked at it a different way, which is an equally important way. Peterman did not show any real ability to get the ball downfield. Or to back defenses away. Allen showed a clear ability to involve the entire field, to throw left, middle and right, short, medium and deep, rolling left or right. He showed a better ability to run. He didn't throw an INT or fumble. He didn't have two pick sixes dropped. I'm taking a different short term perspective. Peterman clearly (undertandably) has a better grasp of the offense and reading defenses. Without question he has physical limitations that will never qualify him as a franchise qb. But as a short term starter it makes a lot of sense to start the season with him taking the snaps. His physical limitations are evident to everyone. But what he does better right now than Josh does is more quickly make a read and get rid of the ball. That attribute is a necessity for survival because of the caliber of our OL, especially its pass blocking. Most of us agree that before the season is over with Josh Allen will get his chance as a starter. My point is that in the short term having Peterman as a starter makes a lot of sense not only for the team but also for the rookie qb. 1
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Going by your logic, no QB competition would ever be fair then. It would be impossible to have each QB face the exact set of circumstances. BINGO!!!! Its almost like asking -- how bad would the Bills have lost if TT started the Chargers game? IIRC hardly anyone realistically expected the Bills to win if they weren't up 30+ points would they have let off the gas? Highly unlikely lmo Edited September 4, 2018 by ShadyBillsFan
Kelly the Dog Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 1 minute ago, JohnC said: I'm taking a different short term perspective. Peterman clearly (undertandably) has a better grasp of the offense and reading defenses. Without question he has physical limitations that will never qualify him as a franchise qb. But as a short term starter it makes a lot of sense to start the season with him taking the snaps. His physical limitations are evident to everyone. But what he does better right now than Josh does is more quickly make a read and get rid of the ball. That attribute is a necessity for survival because of the caliber of our OL, especially its pass blocking. Most of us agree that before the season is over with Josh Allen will get his chance as a starter. My point is that in the short term having Peterman as a starter makes a lot of sense not only for the team but also for the rookie qb. He didn't show a clear ability to know the offense better or to read defenses. Josh looked off more guys, and went to his second and third receivers more than Nate did. Peterman is a one read thrower. He read defenses presnap. Josh read defenses post snap. Josh also ran more of the offense. 1
Gugny Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, pimp on da' net said: This sounds like NP was named the starter of the Chargers game, on game day. He had a weeks preparations but I digress... You can't have it both ways with this guy. You previously stated that he was an upgrade over TT (another late round draft pick), with an overall regular season winning record, and by your own admission NP is a typical (sic) limited rookie QB. How is he an upgrade? I have stated on the record that TT is very limited as a QB but each week he didn't hurt the team with turnovers and NP scares the life out of me because he is limited as well but adds the sacks & turnover effect to the equation which will equate to a very long season for this Bills fan. My hope is that I'm wrong and NP plays lights out but J. Allen is developing so well that he takes over after the bye week! ? Go Bills! Protecting the ball certainly kept the turnovers to a minimum. Unfortunately, they also kept points - when they were needed most - to a minimum, too. I don't expect the offense to be any better, to be honest. The o-line is trash and we've got the oldest running game in the league. Three years of the same crap from the QB position. Week in and week out. At least we'll have a QB who wants to throw the ball - and will, if he has time. To me, that's an upgrade. Yes - I expect more turnovers. That happens when a QB actually takes chances and I'm fine with it.
Alphadawg7 Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2018/9/4/17808072/buffalo-bills-quarterback-nathan-peterman-and-throwing-velocity-on-sideline-passes-mike-jordan Good analysis about NP's issue with the sidelines
JohnC Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 11 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said: He didn't show a clear ability to know the offense better or to read defenses. Josh looked off more guys, and went to his second and third receivers more than Nate did. Peterman is a one read thrower. He read defenses presnap. Josh read defenses post snap. Josh also ran more of the offense. In a short term perspective I disagree with your comparisons between Peterman and Allen. I think that Peterman is right now better equipped mentally to be the starter. Your point that Nate is a one read thrower doesn't discredit my underlying point on this topic, it buttresses it. Quickly getting rid of the ball is a necessity even more than going through progressions because of the caliber of our OL. The attached link is from WGR in which Peter King addresses the issue of starting Peterman over Allen. It is a 14 minute segment. You can go directly to the the 11 minute mark where he address the qb decision. He and I have the same line of reasoning https://wgr550.radio.com/media/audio-channel/09-04-nbc-sports-columnist-peter-king-one-bills-live
Mr. WEO Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, JohnC said: In the preseason games in Peterman clearly in generaloutperformed the rookie. Was the opposition talent equalized for each qb? Not really because it is difficult to get that balance in preseason games when the opposing teams aren't willing to play their starters very much. What is indisputable is that overall Peterman outperformed Allen in the preseason games.(If you don't accept the stats then trust your eyes.) And he demonstrated a better grasp of the offense and the defenses that he faced.(That is understandable because he is more experienced.) I'm not saying any of your points about Peterman are stupid other than bringing up last year's fiasco game in San Diego as being relevant to this year. That is stupid because it has no bearing on this year. Without question, Josh Allen is in the not too distant future our franchise qb. The HC decided to start the season with the qb who in the short term gives this team the best chance to succeed. It not only was the right decision but it was a very understandable decision. I bring up last year's SD fiasco because it is the ONLY or starting experience he has ever had in the NFL! What else can I compare his response to a good pass rush to? The recent cuts of the teams he played ok in preseason against? We shall see if it is the right decision. 50 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Going by your logic, no QB competition would ever be fair then. It would be impossible to have each QB face the exact set of circumstances. I know you're still struggling with the logic of this, so I'll try one more time: it would not have been impossible--it would have been pretty easy. They could have put Peterman in the beginning of the 2nd Q against the Bengals, when most of their D was still playing. Then they could have traded the 3rd and 4th Q against the scrubs. One game, both QBs against the same units. As similar circumstances as possible, therefore... It would have been that easy, really. Edited September 4, 2018 by Mr. WEO
Kelly the Dog Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, JohnC said: In a short term perspective I disagree with your comparisons between Peterman and Allen. I think that Peterman is right now better equipped mentally to be the starter. Your point that Nate is a one read thrower doesn't discredit my underlying point on this topic, it buttresses it. Quickly getting rid of the ball is a necessity even more than going through progressions because of the caliber of our OL. Thee attached link is from WGR in which Peter King addresses the issue of starting Peterman over Allen. It is a 14 minute segment. You can go directly to the the 11 minute mark where he address the qb decision. He and I have the same line of reasoning https://wgr550.radio.com/media/audio-channel/09-04-nbc-sports-columnist-peter-king-one-bills-live You're addressing a different thing though. You said he read defenses better and he didn't. Yes, it is more efficient to do what he did. You may be right that he is better equipped because he reads presnap and makes quick decisions with the ball that he can run this offense better (I disagree but for different reasons), I was only saying that a) you cannot say he has better grasp of the offense if he only uses a small portion of it, and b) just because he makes quick decisions and gets the ball out does not mean he reads defenses better. All it does is show he knows his limitations. It is arguable as to whether that is the wisest. In preseason I would argue yes it is, as evidenced. In regular season, I would argue that cannot work, as evidenced by Chargers game, and post season game. Mop up time and snow game is impossible to make any judgment on that.
Real McClappy Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 What happens to Allen if we go 13-3 under Peterman and win the division?
JohnC Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 Just now, Mr. WEO said: I bring up last year's SD fiasco because it is the ONLY or starting experience he has ever had in the NFL! What else can I compare his response to a good pass rush to? The recent cuts of the teams he played ok in preseason against? We shall see if it is the right decision. Last year's performance has no relevancy to this year! Of course it was part of his experience but it has absolutely no bearing on this year. For the short term Peterman's induction as a starter makes sense to me. Before the season is completed odds are that a more physically talented qb will be behind the center.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Real McCoy said: What happens to Allen if we go 13-3 under Peterman and win the division? Start Allen for the playoffs and bring Home the Lombardi ? 1
Real McClappy Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Start Allen for the playoffs and bring Home the Lombardi ? Just WIN Baby!
Bangarang Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I bring up last year's SD fiasco because it is the ONLY or starting experience he has ever had in the NFL! What else can I compare his response to a good pass rush to? The recent cuts of the teams he played ok in preseason against? We shall see if it is the right decision. I know you're still struggling with the logic of this, so I'll try one more time: it would not have been impossible--it would have been pretty easy. They could have put Peterman in the beginning of the 2nd Q against the Bengals, when most of their D was still playing. Then they could have traded the 3rd and 4th Q against the scrubs. One game, both QBs against the same units. As similar circumstances as possible, therefore... It would have been that easy, really. You’re still hung up on the Bengals game huh? That seems to be your main beef. It’s still stupid though.
Mr. WEO Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, JohnC said: Last year's performance has no relevancy to this year! Of course it was part of his experience but it has absolutely no bearing on this year. For the short term Peterman's induction as a starter makes sense to me. Before the season is completed odds are that a more physically talented qb will be behind the center. How does anyone know? How has he proven otherwise--that he can handle an aggressive pass rush? Despite what he says now, he and everyone else will be thinking of his last start as soon a he takes the field for his next start---because that's all we have to go on. 1 minute ago, Bangarang said: You’re still hung up on the Bengals game huh? That seems to be your main beef. It’s still stupid though. Holy cow. Ok, you win. 1
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Real McCoy said: What happens to Allen if we go 13-3 under Peterman and win the division? (there are no words in reply for what you said) Edited September 4, 2018 by ShadyBillsFan 1
JohnC Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said: You're addressing a different thing though. You said he read defenses better and he didn't. Yes, it is more efficient to do what he did. You may be right that he is better equipped because he reads presnap and makes quick decisions with the ball that he can run this offense better (I disagree but for different reasons), I was only saying that a) you cannot say he has better grasp of the offense if he only uses a small portion of it, and b) just because he makes quick decisions and gets the ball out does not mean he reads defenses better. All it does is show he knows his limitations. It is arguable as to whether that is the wisest. In preseason I would argue yes it is, as evidenced. In regular season, I would argue that cannot work, as evidenced by Chargers game, and post season game. Mop up time and snow game is impossible to make any judgment on that. My response is the same to you as it is to WEO. The Charger game is in the past and has no relevancy to this season for Pererman. As far as which qb better reads defenses I don't see how you can say Allen is better (at this early stage for him) than Peterman. I simply can't make a judgment on that issue as of now. The bottom line is that the HC who watches the tape and presides over practice came to the conclusion that in the short term Peterman gives his team a better chance to succeed. I not only understand why he made that decision but I agree that it was the right thing to do. (At least for the short term.)
Kelly the Dog Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 1 minute ago, JohnC said: My response is the same to you as it is to WEO. The Charger game is in the past and has no relevancy to this season for Pererman. As far as which qb better reads defenses I don't see how you can say Allen is better (at this early stage for him) than Peterman. I simply can't make a judgment on that issue as of now. The bottom line is that the HC who watches the tape and presides over practice came to the conclusion that in the short term Peterman gives his team a better chance to succeed. I not only understand why he made that decision but I agree that it was the right thing to do. (At least for the short term.) Name me one play in preseason where he showed that he could throw a hard enough out pattern that was his issue last season? Name one play where he showed in preseason that he has overcome his lack of arm which is the one reason his doubters have doubt. How can you say it has no bearing when A) he hasn't played with real bullets since, and b) he never showed it with rubber bullets this year?
JohnC Posted September 4, 2018 Posted September 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: How does anyone know? How has he proven otherwise--that he can handle an aggressive pass rush? Despite what he says now, he and everyone else will be thinking of his last start as soon a he takes the field for his next start---because that's all we have to go on. You may be fixated on the fiasco in San Diego but I won't be. I'll be watching the games in present time this year. WEO, let it go and free yourself from the burdens of the past. You will feel liberated. 1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said: Name me one play in preseason where he showed that he could throw a hard enough out pattern that was his issue last season? Name one play where he showed in preseason that he has overcome his lack of arm which is the one reason his doubters have doubt. How can you say it has no bearing when A) he hasn't played with real bullets since, and b) he never showed it with rubber bullets this year? If you want me to argue that Peterman doesn't have limitations regarding his arm strength then you have been missing my central point in this discussion. With the exception of his sideline throws he did make some quality passes. It's understood by everyone who has eyes that he can't make those wide out throws. Every time he attempts that type of pass it is a disaster in waiting. I understand that and acknowledge it. What you see is the same thing that the HC and staff sees. Yet for the short term they decided to start Peterman over Allen. I agree with that judgment.
Recommended Posts