Was Iraq War Worth It...

[Bishop Hedd]

Actually what happened was that the military gave one version of what happened and Sgrena gave about a dozen at last count.  At one point she claimed she was fired on by a tank, that 300-400 shots were fired, and that the Americans were trying to kill her (easily disproved because she is still alive).  Nevermind that she works for a communist newspaper and told collegues she wasn't afraid of being kidnapped or killed by insurgents because she was siding with them against the Americans.

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So because she's a writer for a leftist publication her story has no credibility.

 

 

Yet you posted in regard to the Jeff Gannon story that his personal life was being smeared basically on the basis of his being a homosexual military escort/prostitute/beefcake photo boy on the basis that his politics are far right.

 

 

 

 

Gotcha.

[BuffaloBorn1960]

Naw not really. That crowd annoys me. Honestly I don't lay awake at night praying for them, nor am I into banal symbolism like yellow ribbon magnets-on-the-back-of-the-vehicle either.

 

All that aside I really don't want anyone to die, especially if you think like I do and realize these boys and girls are dying for a no discernable reason, then the issue  becomes somewhat maddening. I wouldn't wish for thousands of US mass casualties on the basis of making the effort, whatever it is, look bad. Taking that tact for the basis of being against the war serves no practical purpose.

Of course this sounds ludicrous on the face of it but I truly wish nobody else dies.

That's the extent of my support.

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Yeah we probably should just let the Butcher of Baghdad free... and turn everything back to the way it was before the war... when nobody was being killed on a daily basis..

[SilverNRed]

So because she's a writer for a leftist publication her story has no credibility.

Yet you posted in regard to the Jeff Gannon story that his personal life was being smeared basically on the basis of his being a homosexual military escort/prostitute/beefcake photo boy on the basis that his politics are far right.

Gotcha.

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Nice reply, ace.

 

You managed to reply to "she works for a communist newspaper" and ignore everything else in the post as well as the three links and quotes that I provided. I'll take that as an admission on your part that you can't explain why this woman provided several different accounts of what happened (some prepostorous).

 

Jeff Gannon's sex life doesn't have anything to do with his career. Sgrena's career has everything to do with her beliefs.

[Bishop Hedd]

Nice reply, ace. 

 

You managed to reply to "she works for a communist newspaper" and ignore everything else in the post as well as the three links and quotes that I provided.  I'll take that as an admission on your part that you can't explain why this woman provided several different accounts of what happened (some prepostorous).

 

Jeff Gannon's sex life doesn't have anything to do with his career.  Sgrena's career has everything to do with her beliefs.

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Except once again you failed to note "Gannon" wrote frequently and derisively of homosexuals in his work, often denigrating Kerry for having the utter temarity to accept support from gay and lesbian groups all the while posing for photos in Manhole magazine.

[Campy]

Really?  No motivation?  Someone who's in country to report US atrocities against innocent Iraqis has no motivation?

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Like 99.9% of the people here, I've never been in combat. That said, I've studied enough history to know that in "modern" warfare, innocent people get killed. Is it unique to this conflict? Of course not, but innocent people being killed is an atrocity all the same, and yes, it's compounded by the fact that one side is using guerilla tactics, I get all that. But just because her job is to report on the deathes of civilians, she is a liar?

 

I doubt that she (or any war reporter) would have to fabricate much to find atrocities. I also doubt that a war reporter would blatantly lie about her vehicle coming under friendly fire. Like KRC said, the truth may very well lie somewhere in the middle, but it sure as hell wouldn't be the first time a group of 19 and 20 year-old kids lied to keep their asses out of the fire.

[jimshiz]

...especially if you think like I do and realize these boys and girls are dying for a no discernable reason...

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Try telling the parents of kids who have been killed over there that their sons are dying for no discernable reason.

[GG]

Like 99.9% of the people here, I've never been in combat.  That said, I've studied enough history to know that in "modern" warfare, innocent people get killed.  Is it unique to this conflict?  Of course not, but innocent people being killed is an atrocity all the same, and yes, it's compounded by the fact that one side is using guerilla tactics, I get all that.  But just because her job is to report on the deathes of civilians, she is a liar? 

 

I doubt that she (or any war reporter) would have to fabricate much to find atrocities.  I also doubt that a war reporter would blatantly lie about her vehicle coming under friendly fire.  Like KRC said, the truth may very well lie somewhere in the middle, but it sure as hell wouldn't be the first time a group of 19 and 20 year-old kids lied to keep their asses out of the fire.

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But isn't the crux of the debate what happened to her, and not about her reporting of the suffering of the Iraqis? The Italian agent died in a friendly fire incident that the US is claiming to be a horrible accident, while among her many claims was that she was deliberately targeted by the US troops.

 

Which story is more plausible? I have my bias.

[Alaska Darin]

I doubt that she (or any war reporter) would have to fabricate much to find atrocities.  I also doubt that a war reporter would blatantly lie about her vehicle coming under friendly fire.  Like KRC said, the truth may very well lie somewhere in the middle, but it sure as hell wouldn't be the first time a group of 19 and 20 year-old kids lied to keep their asses out of the fire.

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I didn't say her vehicle didn't come under fire and I've seen no account from the US side that says that. What I've read states that the convoy was traveling toward their position at a high rate of speed. That's not a very smart thing to do in a war zone where the opposition's most effective weapon has been car bombs...

 

Had they been "insurgents" instead of a rescued "journalist" and they had shown the restraint the Monday Morning QBs seem to be calling for, the liberals would be lamenting the loss of life of our brave soldiers.

 

As far as accounts go, there are few people not trained for combat who can give realistic testimony when they are the ones being attacked. She said a "tank" attacked her. Which means the SMALLEST weapon would have been an M-60 machine gun, capable of firing at a cyclic rate of 550 rounds of 7.62MM per MINUTE with an effective range of over a mile. At 9 rounds per second, that car would be swiss cheese, yet the photographs published by an Italian magazine showed VERY little damage to the car (one bullet hole in the windshield, no damage to any other window nor the body of the car). The other option is a .50 caliber machine gun, which would have sent a TON of very large projectiles through every car in the convoy.

 

I've also seen nothing in the way of ages and I doubt the person who freed the weapons was 19-20 years old.

 

Hmmm.

[SilverNRed]

Except once again you failed to note "Gannon" wrote frequently and derisively of homosexuals in his work, often denigrating Kerry for having the utter temarity to accept support from gay and lesbian groups all the while posing for photos in Manhole magazine.

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Which means what? He's a liar. He doesn't write what he believes. So? He's a nobody. No one had ever heard of him. He has zero influence. I couldn't care less about what he writes or what he does in his personal life.

 

Let's get back to Sgrena shall we? (After all, you brought her up in this thread). When someone is trying to become a symbol of evils of America and her military (to the point where she can be cited by leftist moonbats like you), it's probably a good idea to check into this person's past and see what they're all about when trying to determine if they have an agenda.

[Bishop Hedd]

"I have my bias."

 

 

That I don't doubt.

 

 

 

What the heck does our military have against the eye-ties anyways?

Here we have one of the few European nations dumb enough to join the "coalition of the willing" (Rummy calls it "The Mother of all coalitions") and then we crap all over them.

 

 

And it isn't like this hasn't happened before with our military and innocent Itallian cilvilians.

Remember that moronic pilot who thought he was Iceman from Top Gun and sliced that ski cable car off its wire calling dozens of tourists back in '98. They gave him the proverbial slap on the wrist for his pathetic and dangerous show of machismo.

 

 

Well it looks like this time the Itallians are rightfully upset and may withdraw some or all of their troops shortly. But that's ok I think Thailand might still be there with us.

[Bishop Hedd]

Which means what?  He's a liar.  He doesn't write what he believes.  So?  He's a nobody.  No one had ever heard of him.  He has zero influence.  I couldn't care less about what he writes or what he does in his personal life. 

 

Let's get back to Sgrena shall we?  (After all, you brought her up in this thread).  When someone is trying to become a symbol of evils of America and her military (to the point where she can be cited by leftist moonbats like you), it's probably a good idea to check into this person's past and see what they're all about when trying to determine if they have an agenda.

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"Gannon" obviously doesn't write what he lives.

 

 

Well if he was, as you say, a "nobody" (and it's hard for me to disagree) Why was he allowed daily brefing passes for over two years? Why was he always called on by Bush or McClellan to lob softball questions on difficult issues?

 

Couldn't be that he was loyal to the admistration could it?

[SilverNRed]

"I have my bias."

That I don't doubt.

What the heck does our military have against the eye-ties anyways?

Here we have one of the few European nations dumb enough to join the "coalition of the willing" (Rummy calls it "The Mother of all coalitions") and then we crap all over them.

And it isn't like this hasn't  happened before with our military and innocent Itallian cilvilians.

Remember that moronic pilot who thought he was Iceman from Top Gun and sliced that ski cable car off its wire calling dozens of tourists back in '98. They gave him the proverbial slap on the wrist for his pathetic and dangerous show of machismo.

Well it looks like this time the Itallians are rightfully upset and may withdraw some or all of their troops shortly. But that's ok I think Thailand might still be there with us.

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Of course, Italy deserves no blame for not informing our military of their "rescue" of Sgrena and I'm sure none of the $10 million ransom they paid to get that propagandist back will be spent on IEDs.

[SilverNRed]

"Gannon" obviously doesn't write what he lives.

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Couldn't care less.

 

Well if he was, as you say, a "nobody" (and it's hard for me to disagree) Why was he allowed daily brefing passes for over two years? Why was he always called on by Bush or McClellan to lob softball questions on difficult issues?

Define "always". Was he called on more or less than any other journalist at the press conferences? Did those 'softball' questions have any effect on how the President was covered in the mainstream media? Did his questions make any difference whatsoever? Does it matter who asks the questions?

 

Couldn't be that he was loyal to the admistration could it?

So let me get this straight, Bush (and probably Karl Rove) hatched a devious plan to hire a 'sleeper cell' reporter for Presidential press conferences. The reporter would ask 'softball' questions that the President could easily answer. The rest of the press corp. would have no choice but to write about how well-spoken the President was. BUT, even with all their resources and money, the only person they could find to do such a job was a gay man who wrote for an obscure website that no one had ever heard of. So you're saying that this was some sort of media conspiracy on the part of the Bush administration that just happened to have exactly zero effect on media coverage of the President and was placed in the hands of someone with a very checkered past? Yeah, right.....

[Bishop Hedd]

Couldn't care less? Then hypocrisy in journalism doesn't bother you?

[Bishop Hedd]

"So let me get this straight, Bush (and probably Karl Rove) hatched a devious plan to hire a 'sleeper cell' reporter for Presidential press conferences. The reporter would ask 'softball' questions that the President could easily answer. The rest of the press corp. would have no choice but to write about how well-spoken the President was. BUT, even with all their resources and money, the only person they could find to do such a job was a gay man who wrote for an obscure website that no one had ever heard of. So you're saying that this was some sort of media conspiracy on the part of the Bush administration that just happened to have exactly zero effect on media coverage of the President and was placed in the hands of someone with a very checkered past? Yeah, right....."

 

Almost sounds as ludicrous as WMD's in Iraq right? Nobody's sure what exactly "Gannon" is yet (he is being linked as a possible suspect along with another conservative hack/hired gun Robert Novak in the outing of CIA operative Plame) that's what many of us would like to find out.

[SilverNRed]

"So let me get this straight, Bush (and probably Karl Rove) hatched a devious plan to hire a 'sleeper cell' reporter for Presidential press conferences. The reporter would ask 'softball' questions that the President could easily answer. The rest of the press corp. would have no choice but to write about how well-spoken the President was. BUT, even with all their resources and money, the only person they could find to do such a job was a gay man who wrote for an obscure website that no one had ever heard of. So you're saying that this was some sort of media conspiracy on the part of the Bush administration that just happened to have exactly zero effect on media coverage of the President and was placed in the hands of someone with a very checkered past? Yeah, right....."

 

Almost sounds as ludicrous as WMD's in Iraq right? Nobody's sure what exactly "Gannon" is yet (he is being linked as a possible suspect along with another conservative hack/hired gun Robert Novak in the outing of CIA operative Plame) that's what many of us would like to find out.

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No, it sounds like the single dumbest and most ineffective "conspiracy" ever conceived. It achieved nothing and, even if they *were* looking for a sleeper cell reporter, why pick someone like that? They couldn't groom someone with a clean background and actual experience in the field? None of the Guckart theories make any sense.

 

Who is linking him to Valerie Plame (last scene in a photo shoot for Vanity Fair)? Why would they need him to 'out' Valerie Plame?

 

As for WMD's, I recall just about every intelligence agency both in the U.S. and abroad being pretty confident about Saddam's capabilities and there is still question as to whether or not materials were transported to Syria on the eve of the war.

[SilverNRed]

Couldn't care less? Then hypocrisy in journalism doesn't bother you?

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Hypocrisy in journalism is the norm, not the exception. When the "paper of record" is the NYT and CNN claims to be the "most trusted name in news" and Maureen Dowd wins the Pulitzer, you know the journalism industry is rotten to the core.

 

I don't think professional journalism attracts the best people.

[Bishop Hedd]

"Who is linking him to Valerie Plame (last scene in a photo shoot for Vanity Fair)? Why would they need him to 'out' Valerie Plame?"

 

 

Well Jeff, as you probably already know, was last seen in Hot Military Stud magazine.

[SilverNRed]

"Who is linking him to Valerie Plame (last scene in a photo shoot for Vanity Fair)? Why would they need him to 'out' Valerie Plame?"

Well Jeff, as you probably already know, was last seen in Hot Military Stud  magazine.

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Seriously, is there any legitimate reason to link the two stories together? Any at all?

 

Do you have any interest in defending Sgrena's story (or stories)? You seemed to think her story was credible and proof of how bad things were going in Iraq so you brought it into the thread.

[Bishop Hedd]

Seriously, is there any legitimate reason to link the two stories together?  Any at all?

 

Do you have any interest in defending Sgrena's story (or stories)?  You seemed to think her story was credible and proof of how bad things were going in Iraq so you brought it into the thread.

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I don't know this broad from shinola but I have a tendency to not trust the military's version moreso given their track record as well.

 

 

And as for "Gannon", Conyers' House resolution died before the House Judiciary Committee Wednesday so we'll probably never know who Jeff Gannon was, or what he was up to.

 

 

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.Res.136: