What areas of the team has Beane actually improved?

[BADOLBILZ]

14 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

One thing Beane did which was positive is move a lot of bad contracts out the door.  Next year in particular we are going to have huge amounts of cap space.

 

 

 

 

 

To spend on who?

 

There is a ton of cap space available around the league.  

 

Teams lock up their players or trade them and the few good ones that make it to FA have their choice of a dozen teams with plenty of cap room each year.

 

Until the next CBA at least the value in FA is going to be guys like Lorax or Zach Brown or Hyde/Poyer......under radar/projection types.   

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

32 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Whaley built the 2015 roster which was infinitely more talented than anything Beane has got close to building yet. His greatest fault was not saying "No" on the Rex hire. 

 

I guess?  We made a troubled DT a franchise cornerstone despite numerous red flags. That's really what ended up undoing everything.  Dareus had 10 sacks and was 1st team all-pro.  Then he got paid and has 7.5 sacks since.  

 

He spent 2 first round picks on a non-QB who isn't even probably a top 5 receiver in the 2014 draft class (Beckham, Landry, Evans, Cooks, Adams, Benjamin).  Drafted Kouandjio in the same draft - swing and a miss.  Outside of Watkins, we got 1 use-able player in the entire draft in preston brown.

 

Married himself to Manuel instead of taking another shot in 2014 with someone like Garoppolo, Carr, or Bridgewater.  Used all his ammo up on the watkins trade.  This also caused us to not even have a shot at a QB in 2015 - as again - we were incredibly short of picks.  

 

Then in 2016 doubled-down on Rex and Tyrod for some reason and burned a draft class on a bunch of mediocre players.  Instead of looking at the 2 QBs at the top of the draft - and the 2 teams who wanted to trade down.  He tried to save his job and get that playoff spot, instead of build a franchise built to sustain.

 

EDIT - Add on the bryce brown trade, signing harvin twice, and extending Tyrod as things that damage his credibility.  He didn't really sniff an NFL job after his tenure here either.  

Edited August 27, 2018 by dneveu

[BADOLBILZ]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Whaley built the 2015 roster which was infinitely more talented than anything Beane has got close to building yet. His greatest fault was not saying "No" on the Rex hire. 

 

 

Yeah pretty much.

 

I am starting to get concerned about this much heralded personnel department.   

 

They were being spoken about in hushed tones like they were something spectacular and we aren't seeing any more gems unearthed than when Modrak was GM'ing poolside in Florida for the Jauron regime.    In fact..........probably seeing less than any GM since Polian was hired.    

 

I think they can Jauron ball their way thru another season again but they need to find some dudes before they can play toe-to-toe with the good teams in the NFL.

[Jpsredemption]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

To spend on who?

 

There is a ton of cap space available around the league.  

 

Teams lock up their players or trade them and the few good ones that make it to FA have their choice of a dozen teams with plenty of cap room each year.

 

Until the next CBA at least the value in FA is going to be guys like Lorax or Zach Brown or Hyde/Poyer......under radar/projection types.   

To spend on Trent Murphy and Star L. types

[mjt328]

40 minutes ago, Yeezus said:

 

Then why did Philly win the Super Bowl 2 years after doing exactly what we did? 

 

Jaguars hired Marrone and are now a top AFC team. 

 

The Rams were forever a 7-9 team, last year they had more success then we had in the last 20 years. 

 

Stop giving excuses. Turnaround time in the NFL is usually around 3 years. anything more and something clearly isn't working 

 

So wait a minute...

 

You start this thread, criticizing Brandon Beane for not doing enough to improve the Bills roster.  (Keeping in mind, this was Beane's FIRST year handling Free Agency and his FIRST year running the draft.  AND ALSO keeping in mind the 2018 season hasn't even started yet).

 

Then when I point out that Beane needs another offseason before we can judge his success, you respond to my post with the following quote:  "Turnaround time in the NFL is usually around 3 years."

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

59 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Fully agreed. This isn’t the 90’s anymore. Teams don’t take that long to turn around these days. If you aren’t difinitevly better after 3 years, you’ve failed IMO. That’s just the NFL in 2018. 

 

29 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah pretty much.

 

I am starting to get concerned about this much heralded personnel department.   

 

They were being spoken about in hushed tones like they were something spectacular and we aren't seeing any more gems unearthed than when Modrak was GM'ing poolside in Florida for the Jauron regime.    In fact..........probably seeing less than any GM since Polian was hired.    

 

I think they can Jauron ball their way thru another season again but they need to find some dudes before they can play toe-to-toe with the good teams in the NFL.

 

I think you're correct BADOLBILZ.

 

McDermott gets a pass this year because of the Playoff push last year. 

 

Beane gets a pass in 2018 because he took his shot at QB and we need time to let that grow. 

 

So I think you're going to get more of 2017 in 2018. Dumping off, riding McCoy, punting and field position. But in 2019 Allen better be starting with new skill position players around him and a more aggressive offensive scheme. Because trading for a rocket armed QB at #7 doesn't make any sense if you aren't throwing +15 yard passes. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Straight Hucklebuck

[oldmanfan]

38 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

To spend on who?

 

There is a ton of cap space available around the league.  

 

Teams lock up their players or trade them and the few good ones that make it to FA have their choice of a dozen teams with plenty of cap room each year.

 

Until the next CBA at least the value in FA is going to be guys like Lorax or Zach Brown or Hyde/Poyer......under radar/projection types.   

So on the one hand Beane is getting criticized for not beefing up the O line this past off season, and now it's that he won't be able to next year either because guys aren't out there even if you have cap space? 

 

Makes perfect sense.

[Ayjent]

21 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I guess?  We made a troubled DT a franchise cornerstone despite numerous red flags. That's really what ended up undoing everything.  Dareus had 10 sacks and was 1st team all-pro.  Then he got paid and has 7.5 sacks since.  

 

He spent 2 first round picks on a non-QB who isn't even probably a top 5 receiver in the 2014 draft class (Beckham, Landry, Evans, Cooks, Adams, Benjamin, .  Drafted Kouandjio in the same draft - swing and a miss.  Outside of Watkins, we got 1 use-able player in the entire draft in preston brown.

 

Married himself to Manuel instead of taking another shot in 2014 with someone like Garoppolo, Carr, or Bridgewater.  Used all his ammo up on the watkins trade.  This also caused us to not even have a shot at a QB in 2015 - as again - we were incredibly short of picks.  

 

Then in 2016 doubled-down on Rex and Tyrod for some reason and burned a draft class on a bunch of mediocre players.  Instead of looking at the 2 QBs at the top of the draft - and the 2 teams who wanted to trade down.  He tried to save his job and get that playoff spot, instead of build a franchise built to sustain.

Yes this was what was wrong with Whaley - he wasn't good either.  But there was a talented enough team to win and make the playoffs, just not a talented enough HC or Defensive Coaching Staff.  He was pretty good with scouting pros on other teams, just not very good with draft prospects and was in some weird twilight zone position with seemingly limited power (and probably rightfully so).  The Offensive unit that was put together under Rex was actually surprisingly effective and not too bad - the problem was that the Defense went from good to crap with bad schemes and bad coaching.  But I agree the team was not built to sustain in the long term and eventually this day would come - although I really have to disagree with getting rid of a guy like Tyrod until you have something better for sure.  Tyrod is a starter level QB in the NFL and you don't need to run him out of town to get a better guy - you just have to get other guys on the roster that prove that they are better and your worst case scenario at QB is a guy that can play mobile, game manager as a baseline.

 

Now both sides of the ball look shaky cakes on the lines and that's not a good recipe for winning in the NFL.  .

[Mango]

9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

So on the one hand Beane is getting criticized for not beefing up the O line this past off season, and now it's that he won't be able to next year either because guys aren't out there even if you have cap space? 

 

Makes perfect sense.

 

This is actually a good discusssion, what should we have done to address said needs, especially on OL. Probably kept Glenn, swung Dawkins to RT (where he was projected), also drafted Tyrell Crosby in the 4th instead of Taron Johnson, slightly over valued there, but fills a huge need for us.  Offered EJ Gaines an extension and retain Coleman or Johnson. Secondary and OL are both improved. 

2 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

Yes this was what was wrong with Whaley - he wasn't good either.  But there was a talented enough team to win and make the playoffs, just not a talented enough HC or Defensive Coaching Staff.  He was pretty good with scouting pros on other teams, just not very good with draft prospects and was in some weird twilight zone position with seemingly limited power (and probably rightfully so).  The Offensive unit that was put together under Rex was actually surprisingly effective and not too bad - the problem was that the Defense went from good to crap with bad schemes and bad coaching.  But I agree the team was not built to sustain in the long term and eventually this day would come - although I really have to disagree with getting rid of a guy like Tyrod until you have something better for sure.  Tyrod is a starter level QB in the NFL and you don't need to run him out of town to get a better guy - you just have to get other guys on the roster that prove that they are better and your worst case scenario at QB is a guy that can play mobile, game manager as a baseline.

 

Now both sides of the ball look shaky cakes on the lines and that's not a good recipe for winning in the NFL.  .

 

At the time I don't think I really wanted the Schwartz hire to replace Marrone. Looking back on it, I am pretty curious what this team would look like if he were the hire and not Rex. My guess is we would have been a playoff team sooner than 2017. But still in QB purgatory (which we are still in now, until Allen pans out)

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

Yes this was what was wrong with Whaley - he wasn't good either.  But there was a talented enough team to win and make the playoffs, just not a talented enough HC or Defensive Coaching Staff.  He was pretty good with scouting pros on other teams, just not very good with draft prospects and was in some weird twilight zone position with seemingly limited power (and probably rightfully so).  The Offensive unit that was put together under Rex was actually surprisingly effective and not too bad - the problem was that the Defense went from good to crap with bad schemes and bad coaching.  But I agree the team was not built to sustain in the long term and eventually this day would come - although I really have to disagree with getting rid of a guy like Tyrod until you have something better for sure.  Tyrod is a starter level QB in the NFL and you don't need to run him out of town to get a better guy - you just have to get other guys on the roster that prove that they are better and your worst case scenario at QB is a guy that can play mobile, game manager as a baseline.

 

Now both sides of the ball look shaky cakes on the lines and that's not a good recipe for winning in the NFL.  .

 

He did a good job adding cheap talent, but his drafts were poor - and he always seemed short-sighted.  You have to balance that win-now philosophy with building for the future, and thinking about future cap ramifications.  

[oldmanfan]

11 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

This is actually a good discusssion, what should we have done to address said needs, especially on OL. Probably kept Glenn, swung Dawkins to RT (where he was projected), also drafted Tyrell Crosby in the 4th instead of Taron Johnson, slightly over valued there, but fills a huge need for us.  Offered EJ Gaines an extension and retain Coleman or Johnson. Secondary and OL are both improved. 

 

At the time I don't think I really wanted the Schwartz hire to replace Marrone. Looking back on it, I am pretty curious what this team would look like if he were the hire and not Rex. My guess is we would have been a playoff team sooner than 2017. But still in QB purgatory (which we are still in now, until Allen pans out)

I have mixed feelings about the Glenn trade.  we needed to make a move up to get the QB we wanted, so you had to give up something.  And as much as I liked Glenn his injury history was becoming concerning.  The middle of the O line is where we have issues, and two things stick out to me just based on yesterday.  One is Groy.  I figured he'd be a more than adequate replacement for Wood, given how ell he did when he stepped in for him a couple years ago.  But yesterday he just seemed clueless.  Two times guys pretty much just ran by him and he just stood there.  And then Ducasse and Miller.  I've said several times today that I cannot understand how a guy with Ducasses's size can be just walked back like he's not even there.  And Miller was just as bad with his penalties.  They did try to address it somewhat with Teller, and you have to imagine he starts if not opening day shortly thereafter if the two incumbents play like they did yesterday.  And you have to just hope that was one bad day for Groy.  If not then it's going to be pretty tough.

 

I'm not worried about our DB's.  Corners sometimes get beat one on one and Davis got suckered.  I expect a vet like him to bounce back.

[Big Turk]

16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

"Preferred" is the wrong word.  I think there is no question that Beane is a more complete GM...he is not depending upon Jim Overdorf to teach him cap management, he has his own ideas and tells Overdorf what he wants.  He is also far more polished and comfortable dealing with the press.

But Whaley did recognize and bring in talent, as witnessed by the fact that so many of the players he drafted are starters or contributors on other NFL teams, including last year's playoff teams.  People like to rag on him, but his downfall really was trying to adapt his roster to 3 different coaching schemes IMHO.

It is yet to be determined if Beane will be as successful in bringing in talent.... Vlad Ducasse, Russ Bodine, Mike Tolbert, Jordan Matthews, and Vonte Davis leave me underwhelmed so far.  He has a clear pattern of wanting to "swing for the fences" with sky-high ceiling/high risk/low floor guys (eg Allen, Edmunds) over "safer" picks.  He's left gimondulous holes on OL and WR in part due to the players he's brought in/drafted not panning out (eg Ducasse, Bodine, Zay Jones, Jordan Matthews). 

 

We'll see.

 

Edit: although I'm frightened by the posters with whom I seem to be in agreement.  Yikes!

 

 

Yeah I am sure he planned on having Woods forced into retirement and Incognito go straightjacket...

 

That's 75% of the problem with the OLine...trying to replace 2 highly productive pro bowl caliber players with scrubs.

 

But how much can you do in 1 offseason? This year was all about getting the QB.

Edited August 27, 2018 by matter2003

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Yeah I am sure he planned on having Woods forced into retirement and Incognito go straightjacket...

 

That's 75% of the problem with the OLine...trying to replace 2 highly productive pro bowl caliber players with scrubs.

 

But how much can you do in 1 offseason? This year was all about getting the QB.

 

First wood retired - and most thought hey we'll be ok.  Groy did fine in that extended stretch.

 

Then we traded Glenn - fine we got dawkins who played most of his snaps last year anyway

 

Then Incognito lost his mind... and it was like ok i think we have a serious problem. 

[LSHMEAB]

At this point, Beane should consider kicking the tires on Cogs. Would probably be his best "addition."

[DisplacedBillsFan]

Beane shipped Tyrod out of town. He deserves a 10 year extension for that move alone.

[dubs]

1 hour ago, Yeezus said:

 

cap space means NOTHING unless a front office knows how to use it. 

 

Judging from past moves this current front office doesn't have the eye for talent that Whaley and his crew had. Beane is in way over his head right now. And what teams have ever been successful building their team through FA? We have so many holes on this roster its going to take multiple offseasons to fix. 

 

 

Hahaha. If Beane is over his head right now then you are sitting at the bottom of the Atlantic with Rob Ryan attached to your ankle regarding this thread. 

 

I’m not sure if Beane’s plan ultimately works, but it’s clear he has a plan and it makes sense and takes some time.  It’s much better than perennial mediocre from Whaley and his predecessors. 

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

I guess?  We made a troubled DT a franchise cornerstone despite numerous red flags. That's really what ended up undoing everything.  Dareus had 10 sacks and was 1st team all-pro.  Then he got paid and has 7.5 sacks since.  

 

He spent 2 first round picks on a non-QB who isn't even probably a top 5 receiver in the 2014 draft class (Beckham, Landry, Evans, Cooks, Adams, Benjamin).  Drafted Kouandjio in the same draft - swing and a miss.  Outside of Watkins, we got 1 use-able player in the entire draft in preston brown.

 

Married himself to Manuel instead of taking another shot in 2014 with someone like Garoppolo, Carr, or Bridgewater.  Used all his ammo up on the watkins trade.  This also caused us to not even have a shot at a QB in 2015 - as again - we were incredibly short of picks.  

 

Then in 2016 doubled-down on Rex and Tyrod for some reason and burned a draft class on a bunch of mediocre players.  Instead of looking at the 2 QBs at the top of the draft - and the 2 teams who wanted to trade down.  He tried to save his job and get that playoff spot, instead of build a franchise built to sustain.

 

EDIT - Add on the bryce brown trade, signing harvin twice, and extending Tyrod as things that damage his credibility.  He didn't really sniff an NFL job after his tenure here either.  

 

My argument is not that Whaley was a great GM. My point is if we want to talk talent assembled on a roster, then the 2015 roster was about the most talented since the Superbowl years. 

 

McDermott says that talent is not enough and you need talent with habits. I agree and that might have been a downfall of the 2015 team. But habits alone are certainly not enough. Of the two talent comes first, always has and always will. 

 

This roster is undertalented in far too many areas. That, I am afraid, is a fact. 

[Peter]

18 hours ago, MJS said:

We made the playoffs. Can't argue with results.

 

We really backed into the playoff on a miracle play by Andy Dalton and a delayed controversial call against the Colts on their two point conversion. 

 

We also had a team with many metrics relative to the rest of the league that were worse than the year before.

 

Last year was a mirage.  We were very fortunate to make the playoffs.  It was fun, but it was a mirage.

 

Get ready for some reality this year.

 

If we actually make the playoffs this year, I would be VERY, VERY surprised.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

We really backed into the playoff on a miracle play by Andy Dalton and a delayed controversial call against the Colts on their two point conversion. 

 

We also had a team with many metrics relative to the rest of the league that were worse than the year before.

 

Last year was a mirage.  We were very fortunate to make the playoffs.  It was fun, but it was a mirage.

 

Get ready for some reality this year.

 

If we actually make the playoffs this year, I would be VERY, VERY surprised.

 

So would I. But that doesn't matter if we see good things from Allen and to a lesser extent Edmunds. The problem is how do we evaluate Allen when we can't get him on the field because we don't trust 5 blokes to stand there and block for him?

[Peter]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

So would I. But that doesn't matter if we see good things from Allen and to a lesser extent Edmunds. The problem is how do we evaluate Allen when we can't get him on the field because we don't trust 5 blokes to stand there and block for him?

 

I would be very wary of playing Allen behind that OL.  He is raw to begin with.  He certainly has some potential.  How much, I do not know, but I would hate to see him get ruined playing behind these jokers.  I suspect that AJ or NP likely would get rid of the ball more quickly given that they have more experience (and what I saw of Josh yesterday).

 

P.S.  Although I was Arsene Knows Best, I like the way Unai is handling the team and that he does not appear to be taking any BS from our 350k per week diva.  Unai will get the best out of him or he will not play for Arsenal.