What areas of the team has Beane actually improved?

[Freddie's Dead]

10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

But Whaley did recognize and bring in talent, as witnessed by the fact that so many of the players he drafted are starters or contributors on other NFL teams, including last year's playoff teams.  People like to rag on him, but his downfall really was trying to adapt his roster to 3 different coaching schemes IMHO.

It is yet to be determined if Beane will be as successful in bringing in talent.... Vlad Ducasse, Russ Bodine, Mike Tolbert, Jordan Matthews, and Vonte Davis leave me underwhelmed so far.  He has a clear pattern of wanting to "swing for the fences" with sky-high ceiling/high risk/low floor guys (eg Allen, Edmunds) over "safer" picks.  He's left gimondulous holes on OL and WR in part due to the players he's brought in/drafted not panning out (eg Ducasse, Bodine, Zay Jones, Jordan Matthews). 

 

 

Pretty clear now from a Pro Personnel standpoint, Whaley >>> McBeane.

[gobills1212]

50 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

I really hope the message board isn't going to be flooded with these kinds of posts all season.

 

Fans need to get it in their heads. 

Brandon Beane didn't come in here to patch some holes and make us a Wild Card team.  He came here to completely tear-down what the previous regime did, and construct this roster piece-by-piece into a consistent championship contender.  That cannot be done in only 1-2 seasons.  (I think many fans have already forgotten that Beane didn't even come to Buffalo until May of last year, after Free Agency and the Draft were already wrapped up.)

 

I agree that roster turnover CAN be quick in the NFL.  But a lot of that depends on what pieces are already in place.

The cornerstones of Doug Whaley's roster were either players that Beane didn't want (Sammy Watkins, Ronald Darby, Marcel Dareus, Reggie Ragland, Cordy Glenn, Tyrod Taylor) or players that have retired this offseason (Eric Wood, Ritchie Incognito).  This is a TOTAL rebuild.

 

Our two most important acquisitions this offseason were Josh Allen and Tremaine Edmunds.  The plan is to build the franchise around THESE TWO GUYS for the next decade.  Hopefully someday both will become regular Pro Bowlers.  But for now, the common trait is that both Allen/Edmunds were considered physical freaks, who were raw and needed LOTS of refinement before reaching their potential.  Read the scouting reports before the draft.  Neither of these guys were expected to make a tremendous impact as rookies.  There will be growing pains, and mistakes.

 

Considering the number of players we decided to part-ways with, the two surprise retirements on the O-Line, our terrible salary cap position, and our desperation to land a franchise-QB --- it was totally unrealistic to expect Beane to fill all of our glaring holes in one offseason.  The plan in Free Agency was to be conservative in spending this year, and get the dead-money/bad contracts off the books.  Once 2019 hits, the Bills just might have the most cap space in the entire NFL to play around with.  And all of our future draft picks.

 

Bottom line.  There needs to be an element of patience among the Bills fanbase.

- 2018 was all about blowing up the roster and purging the unwanted pieces. 

- 2019 is about rebuilding the foundation

- 2020 will be about filling in those holes

 

If we are competing for the AFC East by the end of next year, then we can start criticizing what Beane did right/wrong.  Until then, it's way too premature.

 

 

 

Just Pin this post to the top as a sticky. 

Make people read it 2x before posting. 

Then, if they still feel the need to embarass themselves - so be it. At that point there is just no helping them. I dont get how a true fan of this team can hang their hat on much either way. 

Last year people seemed to be fine with the tank notion, and hey! Look at that! We made the playoffs!!! This year will prob be more of a year for learning and building a base, so next year when they have some $$ they can start to build THEIR idea of a team rather than guys from the scrap heap bc they are still hindered by other people mess. By then their QB will have a year in the league,  AND theyll prob have another hi draft pick rookie (3 in 2 yrs) and THEN things will start to look up. Are we really that naive to think THEY think they have top talent everywhere? They get paid to coach and scout. Im sure they are quite aware of what they are dealing with. As fans into it enough to post on a message board- we should be too!!!

 

YOUR TEAM MIGHT LOOK PRETTY BAD THIS YEAR!!!! ITS NOT A SURPRISE, AND ITS IN THE NAME OF PROGRESS.

 

 

So, if you, mr fly off the handle impatient instant reaction fairweather fan still needs to post the doom and gloom garbage,  then fine. I suppose we have to read it. At the very least maybe try and do it some what intelligently. Bc this nonsense is really quite silly....

Edited August 27, 2018 by gobills1212

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Freddie's Dead said:

Pretty clear now from a Pro Personnel standpoint, Whaley >>> McBeane.

 

TBD in my book, everyone has swings and misses.

[SCBills]

This thread shouldn't exist until after next years Draft and Free Agency. 

 

I'm as annoyed with our Offensive Line as anyone else after what we witnessed in PG3, but next year, with a ton of cap space and a full draft, we will see a completely different team with what draft picks and $$$ can get you..... an influx of talent.

 

Now Star and Murphy need to show me something because those guys were given actual money and so far, one has been underwhelming in preseason and one is a ghost.

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by SCBills

[gobills1212]

1 minute ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

Pretty clear now from a Pro Personnel standpoint, Whaley >>> McBeane.

Whaley also didnt seem to have much of a cohesive plan and also had a full wallet.

These guys are strapped for cash, still ckeaning up and paying for his mess, AND have a plan they are trying to execute by essentislly biding time. 

Also, we can guess where this team shakes out, but we backed into the playoffs last year and this yr hasnt started...sssooooo.... there seems to be different ways of judging results at the moment

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

This thread shouldn't exist until after next years Draft and Preseason. 

 

I'm as annoyed with our Offensive Line as anyone else after what we witnessed in PG3, but next year, with a ton of cap space and a full draft, we will see a completely different team with what draft picks and $$$ can get you..... an influx of talent.

 

Now Star and Murphy need to show me something because those guys were given actual money and so far, one has been underwhelming in preseason and one is a ghost.

+10000000000

[Freddie's Dead]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

TBD in my book, everyone has swings and misses.

 

We'll see.  Right now, Vontae is getting abuuuuused.    Ducasse is a !@#$ing turnstile, who needs to be off this team.  If he can pick up a few OL's off the scrap heap next week (AND GET RID OF DUCASSE!!), I could be persuaded. 

[Mango]

9 hours ago, Starr Almighty said:

He improved the salary cap. Next year they an start to build. The secondary has been upgraded too.

 

Thats not true at all. Beane hasn’t upgraded the secondary at all this year. In fact it probably takes a step back from last year. We lost CB2 and CB3, without a viable replacement. Depth behind Tre is a giant concern. He also traded Darby.  

 

Whaley got Poyer, Hyde, and White, just for clarifications.

 

If you’re trying to compare years, last year was better. If you’re trying to compare regimes Gilmore/Darby > Tre/Davis and it’s not close. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

 

I really hope the message board isn't going to be flooded with these kinds of posts all season.

 

Fans need to get it in their heads. 

Brandon Beane didn't come in here to patch some holes and make us a Wild Card team.  He came here to completely tear-down what the previous regime did, and construct this roster piece-by-piece into a consistent championship contender.  That cannot be done in only 1-2 seasons.  (I think many fans have already forgotten that Beane didn't even come to Buffalo until May of last year, after Free Agency and the Draft were already wrapped up.)

 

I agree that roster turnover CAN be quick in the NFL.  But a lot of that depends on what pieces are already in place.

The cornerstones of Doug Whaley's roster were either players that Beane didn't want (Sammy Watkins, Ronald Darby, Marcel Dareus, Reggie Ragland, Cordy Glenn, Tyrod Taylor) or players that have retired this offseason (Eric Wood, Ritchie Incognito).  This is a TOTAL rebuild.

 

Our two most important acquisitions this offseason were Josh Allen and Tremaine Edmunds.  The plan is to build the franchise around THESE TWO GUYS for the next decade.  Hopefully someday both will become regular Pro Bowlers.  But for now, the common trait is that both Allen/Edmunds were considered physical freaks, who were raw and needed LOTS of refinement before reaching their potential.  Read the scouting reports before the draft.  Neither of these guys were expected to make a tremendous impact as rookies.  There will be growing pains, and mistakes.

 

Considering the number of players we decided to part-ways with, the two surprise retirements on the O-Line, our terrible salary cap position, and our desperation to land a franchise-QB --- it was totally unrealistic to expect Beane to fill all of our glaring holes in one offseason.  The plan in Free Agency was to be conservative in spending this year, and get the dead-money/bad contracts off the books.  Once 2019 hits, the Bills just might have the most cap space in the entire NFL to play around with.  And all of our future draft picks.

 

Bottom line.  There needs to be an element of patience among the Bills fanbase.

- 2018 was all about blowing up the roster and purging the unwanted pieces. 

- 2019 is about rebuilding the foundation

- 2020 will be about filling in those holes

 

If we are competing for the AFC East by the end of next year, then we can start criticizing what Beane did right/wrong.  Until then, it's way too premature.

 

I can agree on the "premature" part for a final assessment.  Any GM will have swings and misses.

 

But let's look at what you've written above.  "The cornerstones of Doug Whaley's roster were players that Beane didn't want"

IMHO, that's not good enough.  In the NFL, with FA and the salary cap, you can't just ship talent out of town because "you don't want" it.  It's questionable whether a team can afford to ship talent out of town because "it doesn't fit our scheme" rather than, as Wade Phillips said, adapting the scheme to good players. 

 

There are some players on your list who arguably had to go - Dareus, as the top-paid player, had to be an example to the team and if it's true he was mailing it in in practice and sleeping through meetings (if he showed up), he had to go at a fire-sale price.    There are some players on your list who were used to build needed draft capitol (Glenn)

 

But when a team decides to part ways with guys who can play - Darby, Watkins, Glenn, Taylor - or let walk players it developed such as Woods and Goodwin - there had better be a plan to bring talent in, and it's fair to ask who has been brought in and how have they worked out.  And with Jordy Matthews, Kelvin Benjamin, drafting Zay Jones, signing Ducasse and Bodine and Tolbert and Lotulelei and Murphy - it's fair to evaluate the type of talent that was brought in and ask about its quality, and to say "hmmmmmm".

 

It's unrealistic to ask Beane to fill all glaring holes in one off season, but it's realistic to ask how has he done with the holes he has tried to fill, don't you agree?

 

 

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

10 hours ago, gobills1212 said:

Give it a rest man... again its preseason!

You are either working yourself up in a tizzy over preseason, or you are super bored. 

 

 

I'm not one to usually panic or claim victory over preseason games. But, with that said. Our team was very mediocre at best in many categories last year and in some we were flat out terrible. I don't want to hear that we made the playoffs by the skin of our teeth in 2017. I want to know what we are going to do in 2018. We certainly haven't seen anything on the field or on paper (signings/draft picks) that would suggest our dismal offensive and defensive ranking will improve from 2017. I'm not counting on turnover differential, clutch kicks and a miracle play on the final Sunday of the season getting us back to the playoffs. 

 

As for Beane, I think it is a legit question at this point. Ultimately, his success is tied to Allen. I'm not sure I can point to a single position group that has been upgraded thanks to Beane. Weren't the Poyer and Hyde signings and the White draft pick all before Beane came on board?

 

At this point McDermott definitely gets far more credit than Beane for any success we have had.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

We'll see.  Right now, Vontae is getting abuuuuused.    Ducasse is a !@#$ing turnstile, who needs to be off this team.  If he can pick up a few OL's off the scrap heap next week (AND GET RID OF DUCASSE!!), I could be persuaded. 

 

Right, he is.  And (for example) Whaley signed Chris Williams to $5.5M guaranteed, who I think played all of what, 3 games? for the Bills before re-injuring his back and retiring due to injury.  As I said, every GM has swings and misses (and I believe, Ducasse was signed before Beane was hired - March 2017, Beane hired in May).

 

Though I surely don't get the apparent  "Ducasse love" from Castillo, unless he has compromising pictures of Juan

[Freddie's Dead]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Though I surely don't get the apparent  "Ducasse love" from Castillo, unless he has compromising pictures of Juan

 

He blows goats, we have proof.  So Ducaca was Whaley?  ****.

[MJS]

21 minutes ago, Keukasmallies said:

 

Might be more accurate to say we fell into the playoffs; we were in the right place at the right time.  No way do I accept we played our way in.

 

They literally played their way in. They won 9 games.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Freddie's Dead said:

 

He blows goats, we have proof.  So Ducaca was Whaley?  ****.

 

Yeah, that kinda puts a dent in your theory.

 

Just a bit.

 

Well, him and Charles Clay. That was a failure of EPIC proportions from a pro personnel standpoint.

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

10 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

Whaley also constructed a 9-7 team that was far more talented. He never sat on his hands, seemed to always be trying to improve the team. 

I agree. The 2015 and 2016 teams were probably easily top 5 or even top three teams we've had since the turn of the century. Problem was, the coaching staff was terrible. And injuries just got us at the wrong times. The 2017 team by contrast was probably a bottom five team by statistical metrics. Great we mad the playoffs and all but if you are honest with yourself, is the needle pointing up or down for the future?

[dubs]

4 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

I agree. The 2015 and 2016 teams were probably easily top 5 or even top three teams we've had since the turn of the century. Problem was, the coaching staff was terrible. And injuries just got us at the wrong times. The 2017 team by contrast was probably a bottom five team by statistical metrics. Great we mad the playoffs and all but if you are honest with yourself, is the needle pointing up or down for the future?

 

Comparing any bills teams to the rest of them during the drought is exactly why we needed a new regime. We have to compare favorable to the Pats, Steelers, Eagles, etc....   it’s going to take time

 

oh, and it’s say pointing up. Maybe a step back this year for a few steps forward for years to come. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by dubs

[Ayjent]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I can agree on the "premature" part for a final assessment.  Any GM will have swings and misses.

 

But let's look at what you've written above.  "The cornerstones of Doug Whaley's roster were players that Beane didn't want"

IMHO, that's not good enough.  In the NFL, with FA and the salary cap, you can't just ship talent out of town because "you don't want" it.  It's questionable whether a team can afford to ship talent out of town because "it doesn't fit our scheme" rather than, as Wade Phillips said, adapting the scheme to good players. 

 

There are some players on your list who arguably had to go - Dareus, as the top-paid player, had to be an example to the team and if it's true he was mailing it in in practice and sleeping through meetings (if he showed up), he had to go at a fire-sale price.    There are some players on your list who were used to build needed draft capitol (Glenn)

 

But when a team decides to part ways with guys who can play - Darby, Watkins, Glenn, Taylor p or let walk players it developed such as Woods and Goodwin - there had better be a plan to bring talent in, and it's fair to ask who has been brought in and how have they worked out.  And with Jordy Matthews, Kelvin Benjamin, drafting Zay Jones, signing Ducasse and Bodine and Tolbert and Lotulelei and Murphy - it's fair to evaluate the type of talent that was brought in and ask about its quality, and to say "hmmmmmm".

 

It's unrealistic to ask Beane to fill all glaring holes in one off season, but it's realistic to ask how has he done with the holes he has tried to fill, don't you agree?

 

 

 

 

I agree.  It's not all bad, just like Whaley wasn't all bad - but there are highly questionable moves that will bear out during the next few seasons.   I think the team made a huge mistake trading Taylor away (who could actually still make things happen with the toilet paper line in front of him) - he was professional in his approach to preparation and leadership, he could have been a good mentor and yes you want him to try to beat out the other (competition is good at QB - if Allen or Peterman could supplant Tyrod then so be it).  However, when they started Peterman in LA last year, you knew that Tyrod was toast on this team - and I still think the issue leading up to that was that the Interior OL was not playing well at all in the two games before LA.

 

That's one of the two issues I really have the biggest problem with at the moment.  Second is having no foresight on the OL - regardless of whether both Wood and Incognito were somewhat abrupt ends to their time in Buffalo - they were both near the end of their career anyhow and the right side was weak all last year.  They did very little to shore up the OL beyond garage sale specials.  Dawkins looks like he was a good pick, but having Ducasse next to him is going to be a lot different than having Incognito and Wood to his interior.  Again, what does a QB matter when your line looks like it couldn't stop even lower tier DL players in the NFL.  They should go ahead and call Peterman the starter while McCarron recovers and maybe McCarron will be a bit healthier by the time Peterman gets injured.

 

As for Glenn and Dareus - those were the right moves - bad contracts and I don't think either player will ever regain their prior forms that led to their contracts (albeit for different reasons).

 

Watkins was also a good trade - there was no way he would stay in Buffalo after last year anyhow.  Another good move. 

 

However, these were three cornerstone players, but just not dependable players.  I'm fine with those moves.  They went out and got KB - who is probably a better fit for this team and was a need after Woods left and Jordan Matthews showed that his injuries may be putting an end to his career.

 

 

[Freddie's Dead]

11 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Yeah, that kinda puts a dent in your theory.

 

Just a bit.

 

Well, him and Charles Clay. That was a failure of EPIC proportions from a pro personnel standpoint.

 

 

No argument there, Chuck has underperformed.  Looking more at guys like Rambo, Lorax, Lolita, etc.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Freddie's Dead said:

 

Lolita

 

hehehe

 

 

like that nickname

 

[Freddie's Dead]

Just now, joesixpack said:

 

hehehe

 

 

like that nickname

 

 

Humber.  It just fell to me.

[mjt328]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I can agree on the "premature" part for a final assessment.  Any GM will have swings and misses.

 

But let's look at what you've written above.  "The cornerstones of Doug Whaley's roster were players that Beane didn't want"

IMHO, that's not good enough.  In the NFL, with FA and the salary cap, you can't just ship talent out of town because "you don't want" it.  It's questionable whether a team can afford to ship talent out of town because "it doesn't fit our scheme" rather than, as Wade Phillips said, adapting the scheme to good players. 

 

There are some players on your list who arguably had to go - Dareus, as the top-paid player, had to be an example to the team and if it's true he was mailing it in in practice and sleeping through meetings (if he showed up), he had to go at a fire-sale price.    There are some players on your list who were used to build needed draft capitol (Glenn)

 

But when a team decides to part ways with guys who can play - Darby, Watkins, Glenn, Taylor p or let walk players it developed such as Woods and Goodwin - there had better be a plan to bring talent in, and it's fair to ask who has been brought in and how have they worked out.  And with Jordy Matthews, Kelvin Benjamin, drafting Zay Jones, signing Ducasse and Bodine and Tolbert and Lotulelei and Murphy - it's fair to evaluate the type of talent that was brought in and ask about its quality, and to say "hmmmmmm".

 

It's unrealistic to ask Beane to fill all glaring holes in one off season, but it's realistic to ask how has he done with the holes he has tried to fill, don't you agree?

 

 

The players Beane has dumped were released for a variety of reasons.

Some were bad scheme fits.  Some were not going to fit the salary cap.  Some did not display the team-first attitude wanted from this coaching staff.

 

Out of all the players we let go, I can't think of a single one that I would take back (at the cost we traded them for). 

Ronald Darby was injured and didn't play well for the Eagles last year.  Sammy Watkins was a disappointment on the Rams, not re-signed and has been pathetic in preseason action for the Chiefs.  Cordy Glenn is hurt again.  Tyrod Taylor was not the long-term answer.

 

When considering replacements, you have to understand our limited resources.  We only had so much salary cap space.  We only had so many draft picks. 

Did we sign Bodine and Newhouse because they were coveted players by Beane and the staff?  Are these guys our long-term answer at those positions?  Or were we trying to make the best of our limited dollars, and get by with adequate fill-in players for THIS season?

 

That's where the patience comes in.  The 2018 Bills are not a finished product. 

There are some important draft pieces scattered across the roster (Allen, Dawkins, Jones, White, Edmunds, Phillips) along with some important veteran additions (Benjamin, Lotulelei, Murphy, Hyde, Poyer), all of whom are important towards this rebuilding process.  But those guys only make up half of the starting lineup. 

 

Next year, the Bills will have the cap space to properly fill the weak spots.  They will have another full draft class of picks.  Their young prospects will have gotten some badly needed experience.  By the middle of next season, we should have a really good idea where this rebuilding project is headed and whether Beane's plan is working out.  If his picks are struggling at that point, his Free Agent pickups aren't earning their contracts, and the Bills aren't winning games -- THEN we can start criticizing his decisions.