stuvian Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 as much as I like big names, it doesn't seem like a Beane move. If we have money to throw around, I'd like it spent on our OL. This seems glitzy by compare
LABILLBACKER Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 14 hours ago, ThunderGun said: Hughes or Lawson and a first? Then if Murphy ever gets healthy, this defense will just be a Biscuit away. Keep Hughes and give them Shaq + a 1st. In a heartbeat!
KD in CA Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 Just now, stuvian said: as much as I like big names, it doesn't seem like a Beane move. If we have money to throw around, I'd like it spent on our OL. This seems glitzy by compare I'm usually not in favor of the big names/big splash, but I disagree in this case. Dude can get to the QB; that's been a big problem since Mario Williams mentally retired. Plus he seems to love Buffalo. Assuming they can sign him to a new deal, I'd trade a first and some combo of other picks/players for him. 1
BullBuchanan Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 Mack is also coming off a disappointing season. I'm worried he may have already played his best ball, and may be a very good, but not top tier elite player on his second contact. 1
RochesterRob Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 33 minutes ago, Nihilarian said: This said, perhaps Beane is waiting to see if Allen is "the guy" this Sunday and should he perform well enough to show he will be the starter. Then Beane makes a strong move going after Mack. Ideally, Beane would like to wait until a few weeks into the season but teams such as GB will force the issue before then. Beane probably wants to see the performance of the team overall rather than just the QB position.
K-9 Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: The Raiders are not getting more than 1 first round pick for Mack. No team is giving up 2 firsts for any non-QB player that will require a hefty extension. The Raiders would be extremely fortunate to get a 2019 1st, a 2019 mid-round pick, plus a 2020 2nd or 3rd for Mack. As much as teams covet pass rushers they simply aren't going to give up the kind of draft capital (Two firsts and a second) for a non-QB. That's the type of package you give up for a QB on a rookie contract not the type of trade capital you give up for a pass rusher on his second contract. I think realisitcally the trade package looks more like this 2019 1st, 2019 4th (Swapped with a 7th from the Raiders), 2020 3rd or 4th (With the Raiders throwing back a 5th or 6th in a pick swap) and a throw-in player. Why is the premium for the second most important position on a team so much less today than it was before? The only difference in terms of team dynamic is the salary cap that I can see. Not an insignificant consideration, but for teams with a ton of projected cap room for the next several years, it's not much of a constraint. And with multiple teams in the bidding, somebody is going to have to up their offer. Polian invested that much for a great potential player in Bennett whereas Mack has already established himself as a premier player in the league. And while I understand that Bennett was a finishing piece to the puzzle, I don't see the wisdom in passing up an opportunity to lock up a premier player at such a critical position, regardless.
CommonCents Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 Just now, K-9 said: Why is the premium for the second most important position on a team so much less today than it was before? The only difference in terms of team dynamic is the salary cap that I can see. Not an insignificant consideration, but for teams with a ton of projected cap room for the next several years, it's not much of a constraint. And with multiple teams in the bidding, somebody is going to have to up their offer. Polian invested that much for a great potential player in Bennett whereas Mack has already established himself as a premier player in the league. And while I understand that Bennett was a finishing piece to the puzzle, I don't see the wisdom in passing up an opportunity to lock up a premier player at such a critical position, regardless. Teams value the affordability of the rookie wage scale and 5th year option. An argument could be made that they overvalue it. I think that’s why the Bennett example is a bit misleading. If they do trade him it will be interesting to see what price was paid.
Nihilarian Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 20 minutes ago, K-9 said: At a minimum. I'm sticking with my Bennett comparison; two 1sts, a 2nd, and a player. My take on that cost is ...it's kinda crazy talk! I would first think that both Beane and McD are thinking that they have a top scouting dept and between the lot of them can find talent on their own without giving away the freaking farm. I'm also sticking with the thinking that the Bills FO isn't 100% certain they have their franchise QB for the next decade AND it's for certain they don't have a Bruce Smith on the other side to compliment that pass rusher. Plus, they still are lacking in other areas like WR corps and O-line. While Mack might actually be worth 2 firsts, a second and a player I kinda doubt this FO would pay anything close to that. JMHO
ToGoGo Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 If we can do it for Hughes, a 1st, and a mid round pick and sign him to an extension before the trade is finalized, you do it. This is a perfect fit IMO. Not everyday that the best DE in the league, right in the middle of his prime (and maybe even the beginning of his prime), who played college ball in Buffalo and likes it here, is in the middle of a contract dispute with one of the crappiest franchises in the league becomes available. Perfect situation. Allen and Mack. Pull the trigger.
BullBuchanan Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, K-9 said: Why is the premium for the second most important position on a team so much less today than it was before? The only difference in terms of team dynamic is the salary cap that I can see. Not an insignificant consideration, but for teams with a ton of projected cap room for the next several years, it's not much of a constraint. And with multiple teams in the bidding, somebody is going to have to up their offer. Polian invested that much for a great potential player in Bennett whereas Mack has already established himself as a premier player in the league. And while I understand that Bennett was a finishing piece to the puzzle, I don't see the wisdom in passing up an opportunity to lock up a premier player at such a critical position, regardless. Because I think you're seeing good teams developing strategies to negate the effectiveness and impact of the rush. Pass rush still has a huge impact against bad teams, but I think it's been reduced against the great ones in recent years. 1 minute ago, Nihilarian said: My take on that cost is ...it's kinda crazy talk! I would first think that both Beane and McD are thinking that they have a top scouting dept and between the lot of them can find talent on their own without giving away the freaking farm. I'm also sticking with the thinking that the Bills FO isn't 100% certain they have their franchise QB for the next decade AND it's for certain they don't have a Bruce Smith on the other side to compliment that pass rusher. Plus, they still are lacking in other areas like WR corps and O-line. While Mack might actually be worth 2 firsts, a second and a player I kinda doubt this FO would pay anything close to that. JMHO Yeah, that trade was pre salary cap. Great players never hit free agency, because you could always pay your cornerstone players. Trades were also extremely rare as a result.
Beast Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, K-9 said: At a minimum. I'm sticking with my Bennett comparison; two 1sts, a 2nd, and a player. This is 2018, not 1987. Mack will NEVER bring that much compensation back in a salary cap league. The guy has a hair over 20 sacks in the last two years combined. He’s a heckuva player but that package you suggest is silly. Edited August 24, 2018 by Binghamton Beast 3
BullBuchanan Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, musichunch said: If we can do it for Hughes, a 1st, and a mid round pick and sign him to an extension before the trade is finalized, you do it. This is a perfect fit IMO. Not everyday that the best DE in the league, right in the middle of his prime (and maybe even the beginning of his prime), who played college ball in Buffalo and likes it here, is in the middle of a contract dispute with one of the crappiest franchises in the league becomes available. Perfect situation. Allen and Mack. Pull the trigger. I think it's highly debatable if he's the best. If he is, there's a half dozen guys on his heels.
Logic Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 On the one hand, I'd love it if Mack were a Bill, and I still believe in the importance of a quality edge rusher. On the other hand, I can't remember the last time someone paid mega money to a non-QB and it wound up having a huge impact on their team. Mario Williams, Ndamukong Suh, etc, etc....I just rarely see the impact match the pay grade. 1
Royale with Cheese Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, Logic said: On the one hand, I'd love it if Mack were a Bill, and I still believe in the importance of a quality edge rusher. On the other hand, I can't remember the last time someone paid mega money to a non-QB and it wound up having a huge impact on their team. Mario Williams, Ndamukong Suh, etc, etc....I just rarely see the impact match the pay grade. Well maybe you could say TO. He did that little escapade in Philly because he said he "out performed his contract".
bbb Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 45 minutes ago, K-9 said: At a minimum. I'm sticking with my Bennett comparison; two 1sts, a 2nd, and a player. Definitely. BTW, have you seen that new movie - Fatal Attraction? Anyway, Happy Halloween! ?
K-9 Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Commonsense said: Teams value the affordability of the rookie wage scale and 5th year option. An argument could be made that they overvalue it. I think that’s why the Bennett example is a bit misleading. If they do trade him it will be interesting to see what price was paid. I agree. Teams also value proven, elite players in their prime as well. Especially when those players can pressure the opposing QB with regularity and change games in the process. Like great QBs, those kinds of players simply don't become available for trade very often. Trading for one guarantees his availability; hoping one is there in the draft is a chance proposition. And, ironically, trading up for that kind of player will cost a fair amount of draft capital as well. And even then, that prospect is an unproven player. The only aspect of the Bennett comparison I find misleading is that Bennett was a finishing piece whereas we have several other holes to fill currently. But talent acquisition is never a linear process and if the opportunity arises to secure an elite player at a critical position, I think you do that every time given the chance.
Nanker Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said: Put another way, if they trade a 1st rounder for Mack, that would make what, 3 first round picks they've effectively given up for Watkins Mack? I'm sure you meant Mack.
K-9 Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 13 minutes ago, Binghamton Beast said: This is 2018, not 1987. Mack will NEVER bring that much compensation back in a salary cap league. The guy has a hair over 20 sacks in the last two years combined. He’s a heckuva player but that package you suggest is silly. Other than the salary cap, what is different today than 1987 when it comes to acquiring such a player? If anything, pressuring the opposing QB is even more important than it was back then given the proliferation of passing offenses. And if a team has a ton of projected cap room for the next several seasons, the cap constraint issue is negligible. I'm curious to see just how silly I turn out to be given the number of teams that will be involved in the bidding process to acquire Mack.
Nihilarian Posted August 24, 2018 Posted August 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, K-9 said: Why is the premium for the second most important position on a team so much less today than it was before? The only difference in terms of team dynamic is the salary cap that I can see. Not an insignificant consideration, but for teams with a ton of projected cap room for the next several years, it's not much of a constraint. And with multiple teams in the bidding, somebody is going to have to up their offer. Polian invested that much for a great potential player in Bennett whereas Mack has already established himself as a premier player in the league. And while I understand that Bennett was a finishing piece to the puzzle, I don't see the wisdom in passing up an opportunity to lock up a premier player at such a critical position, regardless. I can recall watching Bennett tearing it up at Alabama and wanting to cry as Indy drafted O'Landa with their first-round pick. I was ecstatic when the Bills traded for him. I for one don't think the Bills overpaid for Bennett. I realize that lots do think the Bills overpaid.
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