Please name Josh Allen the starter

[jrober38]

3 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

It is not nonsense. Allen is better. Is the plan going to be to bench our best QB every time LeSean McCoy can't play, Benjamin drops passes and the o-line craps the bed.  Because that is not a good formula. 

 

I don't see any reasonable argument that says Allen is better right now.

 

He's bigger, he's stronger, he's faster, and he's got a rocket arm, but he isn't a better quarterback at this point. 

 

Allen has the tools, but he doesn't know how to use them yet. He was a project coming out of college who still has a ton to learn. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by jrober38

[Trogdor]

9 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

I honestly don't care about the statistical results of a couple of off-season games.  Any sighted person can see that Peterman will unquestionably be considered the worst starting QB in the NFL week 1, if he is the starter.  Allen might be as well.  The difference is by week  8 Peterman likely will still be the 32nd ranked starting NFL QB (barring injuries to others).  Allen MAY not be. 

People are acting like Peterman is some grizzled savvy veteran who has been in the league for years like a Chase Daniels, or Case Keenum.  He is not. He is a young player with one more NFL start that Allen. 

Peterman had more year in college versus big name opponents too. I feel like we discount that far too often here.

[PlayoffsPlease]

3 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

Peterman had more year in college versus big name opponents too. I feel like we discount that far too often here.

No we don't.  Peterman did not face elite college talent on  a regular basis. 

9 hours ago, Bills4Ever4Life said:

 

Where did I EVER say that Peterman was some sort of "grizzled savvy veteran." Keep It Simple Stupid....Peterman played better at all levels of competition. Every time he goes in there the momentum pushes forward. He earned a spot as a starter and i'd be PISSED if I was Peterman and put on the kind of showing that I did and didn't get the starting position. All that would show me is that the competition was a farce from the beginning and nothing he could have done would have got him the starting position. Seriously, what did he need to do to convince you? Throw 20 TD's for 1000 yards in 4 - 5 quarters of play? 

Why are you so self involved that you think the phrase "people act like" is specific to you?  Peterman is awful. He will be awful.  If he starts, he is the worst starting QB in the NFL. 

[Trogdor]

23 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

No we don't.  Peterman did not face elite college talent on  a regular basis. 

Why are you so self involved that you think the phrase "people act like" is specific to you?  Peterman is awful. He will be awful.  If he starts, he is the worst starting QB in the NFL. 

The practice squad at lowly Tennessee is probably more talented than Wyoming, and Pitt is in the ACC which is a power 5 conference. Allen had a few chances against big name schools and failed. How do you know Peterman will be awful this year? Allen just had a taste of that San Diego game and he didn't look great either. I'd rather have a second year player the first 6 games than a project rookie. This team isn't going near .500, so it's going to suck either way.

[Alphadawg7]

10 hours ago, Bills4Ever4Life said:

To be honest, I just don't see how you can think that Allen is better. I wholeheartedly believe that Allen's CEILING is better. I believe the kid has shown some signs of why we picked him where we did. In no way shape or form did he outplay Peterman this offseason. This coming from a guy who was NOT a Peterman fan and REALLY wanted Allen to light it up tonight and earn his starting position outright. He didn't and once again Peterman did well. Peterman played with the 3's....100+ yards 1TD.....he played with the 2's tonight and was 16 for 21 / 200 yards 1TD and ran another drive that led to a run TD. When he played with the 1's he was 9/10 118 yards 1TD / 1 "not his fault" INT. I'm sorry but Peterman outplayed Allen and trust me I REALLY wanted it the other way around. 

 

You’re delusional if you think that NP interception was not his fault.  It was late, high and behind Ivory, it was literally at least 75% NP fault.  And his first pass against Cleveland was a dropped pick 6.

 

And stop it about playing against the 1’s, he didn’t really.  Not everyone was out there for Car and it was literally first drive of first game of preseason against a vanilla D that’s not remotely close to what he will ever face in a game.

 

Praise NP for his overall preseason, but there are a lot of over exaggeration comments floating around.  NP never once faced the kind of defensive pressure AJM last week and Allen this week faced.  I mean our OL is worst in the NFL yet people were making delusional comments after Carolina about it being solid...why, because it wasn’t a real defensive effort or scheme they were facing.

 

And outside KBs TD, the other he threw were a broken play and an easy walk in...All against backups.  

 

Truth is:  Whoever starts is going to have a hard time this year behind this OL, it’s that bad and NP has yet to have to REALLY play behind it yet.  

Edited August 27, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[Big Gun]

1 hour ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

No we don't.  Peterman did not face elite college talent on  a regular basis.  

Hmmm, Virginia Tech, Virginia, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, Miami Fla all twice and Louisville, Clemson, Northwestern, Oklahoma St, Penn St, Notre Dame and Iowa once does kind of say he did face elite college talent on a regular basis. 

But hey, lets judge him on one game and yet the former QB was in his 6th year and people were saying he was basically a rookie and didn't have a large enough sample size to be judged yet. Whatever!

 

[transplantbillsfan]

23 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Peterman is our best QB. He's shown he's in command of the offense, is accurate, and he gets the ball out on time. His arm is obviously lacking, but he does a good job attacking the middle of the field and we can game plan to attack that area off play action once Shady is on the field. It's when he throws to the boundary that he can get into trouble. 

 

I think McCarron is probably a step behind him. We haven't seen much of him but he's proven to be a somewhat capable NFL backup in the past. 

 

Allen is the 3rd guy IMO. His inexperience showed badly today. He held the ball too long, took unnecessary sacks when he could have got rid of the ball and ultimately looked very overwhelmed.

 

Josh Allen was a massive project when we picked him. People might not want to hear it, but this is a guy who was a 2-3 year project who needed to learn how to lead an offense and consistently move the chains. He hasn't done that so far. His 4.7 YPA for the preseason is pathetic and today showed that his awareness still isn't where it needs to be. He held the ball too long and took sacks when he could have dumped the ball incomplete. 

 

Stash him on the bench for as long as possible. He needs to work on a lot of things before he's ready to play meaningful regular season games yet. 

 

I think you're a little off base here.

 

I agree with the idea of shelving Allen, but I don't agree at all that he's the 3rd best QB on the roster.

 

Did you see the OL protection he was afforded yesterday?

 

Our OL somehow got progressively worse throughout the preseason.

 

They were at least "pretty decent" against the Panthers.

 

They were "not good" against the Browns.

 

They were "terrifyingly bad" against the Bengals.

 

What do you think would have happened with Peterman were in there yesterday?  There were a few plays Allen held onto the ball and could have gotten rid of it, but multiple sacks were the result of the OL falling apart immediately.  I just envision Peterman trying to get rid of the ball and throwing multiple picks the way he did against the Chargers when he got pressured.  There was yet another pick-6 a defender couldn't grab yesterday.

 

What happens during the regular season when you have starting caliber DBs going after those interceptions?

 

Peterman thrives off those short quick timing routes and I think we can have success to start the season with him because Dabol can game plan for him.  But at some point--and it might be as early as week 1--defenses will be able to take that away and force Peterman to throw to places like the boundaries where he's so weak throwing the ball to.

 

Shelve Allen to protect him physically if our OL is truly this bad. 

 

But some of this praise of Peterman's play in the preseason is just weird.  Every time he played he had an OL that was giving him a "perfect princess pocket" as my wife calls it.  And his TEs and WRs are just so friggin wide open.

 

How many plays were there in the 1st half yesterday that they're showing the replays to see WRs open for Allen and how often were none actually open?

 

 

Start Peterman because it's close enough where you can physically protect your Franchise while not getting all the vets on your team upset for not starting the best guy.

 

I do, however, think it's interesting McDermott still isn't naming his starter.  The longer this lasts I think the higher the likelihood Allen actually starts.  If they do start him, I sure do hope they manage to fix whatever OL problems they have.  Put Teller in there.  Name Groy the starting Center.  Trade for Chance Warmack…. do whatever... get it fixed.

Edited August 27, 2018 by transplantbillsfan

[transplantbillsfan]

23 hours ago, BigDingus said:

Geez, people are so caught up in the moment. I'm glad fans don't call the shots. 

It was OBVIOUS going into the season, and even more obvious during the preseason that our O-line is bad and would get Allen killed, but even though fans always excuse poor play in preseason by saying "PRESEASON DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING!" everyone was so quick to anoint Allen the starter for week 1 because of preseason play against backups.

Now people seem to be realizing, oh....maybe we do have a problem. That's nice. I'm glad you guys can finally form non-biased opinions when you're smacked in the face with a bit of reality. For someone who was considered a long term project, and the most raw of the big 4 first round QB's, the last thing we should want is to trot him & get him killed week after week this season. 

 

But see you're combining two issues here.

 

Those of us "realizing" what you say we're realizing are realizing how horrible our OL really looks.

 

Yeah, I realize they look horrible.

 

Because of that, I don't want our long term investment destroyed.

 

But your last sentence here is separate and what I think is a non-issue at this point.

 

Allen would be capable of starting if we had at least a decent OL that could afford him some base-level of protection.  Right now our OL looks like it's going to get a rookie QB killed, though. 

 

He doesn't look like the project anymore.  Our OL does.  And I want our OL fixed before I see him on the field.

[Lfod]

I felt the same way before preseason I do now. Except that I don't have any faith in AJMcarron now and I like Nathan Peterman more than I did. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Lfod

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 minutes ago, Lfod said:

I felt the same way before preseason I do now. Except that I don't have any faith in AJMcarron now and I like Nathan Peterman more than I did. 

And after the first half know that Josh needs more time to acclimate to the pros 

[transplantbillsfan]

22 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

There remains no comparison in the level of QB talent. Allen is superior to Peterman in every facet of the game.  People who support starting Peterson and the people who support starting Allen all agree on one thing : the Oline sucks. 
 

But it is very weird to start a lesser talented QB, because your oline sucks.   Starting Peterman just delays Allen's development. 

 

I think you need a baseline level of NFL success at OL for this to be true.

 

With a terrible OL, the only way for a QB to be successful is to have a strong running game and a very quick passing game.

 

Rookie QBs just generally aren't going to be able to operate those really quick passing games where the ball is constantly out in 2 seconds or less.  That's not just an Allen thing.

 

And on top of that, I'm sure that's not the type of passing game Dabol would prefer to operate with Allen at QB.  So while Allen might get that experience to start, the entire offense would probably pretty severely adjusted once we massively upgrade our OL.

 

I really am on the fence at this point.  I'll be extremely excited (and pretty anxious) if Allen is named the starter, which he still might be.  I'll be kinda blah if Peterman is named the starter, even though my head tells me it's probably the smarter decision right now.

[Lfod]

7 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

And after the first half know that Josh needs more time to acclimate to the pros 

I'm ok with that. I liked the preview of Josh Allen. I think the offense needs to improve entirely in the grand scheme of things as well. 

[GoBills808]

19 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

And after the first half know that Josh needs more time to acclimate to the pros 

Allen's first real start in the pros against #1s: took 5 sacks (not all his fault)

 

Peterman's first real start in the pros against #1s: threw 5 picks (not all his fault)

 

Which guy needs more time to acclimate?

[PlayoffsPlease]

1 minute ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I think you need a baseline level of NFL success at OL for this to be true.

 

With a terrible OL, the only way for a QB to be successful is to have a strong running game and a very quick passing game.

 

Rookie QBs just generally aren't going to be able to operate those really quick passing games where the ball is constantly out in 2 seconds or less.  That's not just an Allen thing.

 

And on top of that, I'm sure that's not the type of passing game Dabol would prefer to operate with Allen at QB.  So while Allen might get that experience to start, the entire offense would probably pretty severely adjusted once we massively upgrade our OL.

 

I really am on the fence at this point.  I'll be extremely excited (and pretty anxious) if Allen is named the starter, which he still might be.  I'll be kinda blah if Peterman is named the starter, even though my head tells me it's probably the smarter decision right now.

I think Allen is better now, and has a much higher ceiling. If the team is going to fail because the oline sucks, it is going to fail.  I think every team plays its best QB.  It would be weird if  San Diego decided, "our oline sucks this year, we aren't going to make the playoffs lets sit Rivers so he doesn't get hurt" 

[transplantbillsfan]

22 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Allen showed today he doesn't get the ball out quickly.

 

I don't understand why everyone is trying so hard to forget that he was a major project coming out of Wyoming. 

 

Please stop pushing the narrative Allen is still a huge project who needs 2-3 years on the bench.

 

He doesn't.

 

The only reason Allen should be on the bench at this point is because we don't have even an adequate Offensive Line by NFL standards.

 

That's it.

 

If the Bills had the OL of the Cowboys or Raiders, Allen would be the starter and would probably find a lot of success.

 

He wouldn't be the worst starting QB in the NFL, as you postulated a few posts ago saying the Bills automatically have the worst QB in the league already, no matter who starts.

[Mat68]

I think Allen gives the Bill's the best chance to win real football games.  I dont think we have seen Dabolls offense yet, and having McCoy in the backfield changes how a defense will attack.  If Peterman starts I see that going down hill fast and Allen plays sooner rather than later.  Peterman doesnt have the arm to challenge down the field or outside the numbers.  His front side throw to the boundary hangs and is a pick six waiting to happen. 

[transplantbillsfan]

12 hours ago, Bills4Ever4Life said:

I'm fine with you wanting to ignore pre-season statistics. That's your prerogative. I choose NOT to ignore them. I am also concerned that you choose to both ignore good statistics put up by Peterman and poor statistics put up by Allen. 

 

Those who are ignoring Peterman's preseason statistics or who are putting an asterisk next to them (I'd fall under the latter group) are looking at the kinds of throws Peterman has been making.

 

He's been very good at what he's been asked to do, but the vast majority of his throws have been pretty short quick throws with little to no defensive pressure in his face.  At least 2 of his TDs this preseason were to wide open TEs on pretty clearly busted coverages.

 

So, are all of these open WRs and TEs he's getting the ball to wide open because of his doing or bad defense?

 

If they're open somehow because of him, whether through audibles at the line or whatever, then that's awesome and impressive on his part.

 

To me, I saw a lot of bad defense when Peterman played, particularly against the Browns and Bengals.

 

 

This hype train on Peterman's preseason play just reminds me of last year, when everyone watched him and also hyped up his play because he looked like a savvy vet or something in preseason.

 

Then the Chargers game happened.

 

Pump the brakes.

 

Reality is surely in the middle here.

 

Peterman has improved from last season, but a lot of his same flaws are still there, particularly his arm strength.  And I don't think we'll know until we see him playing a real NFL defense in regular season action whether he can capably hold the reins for any period of time.

 

He may have earned the starting job for week 1.  But he'd be far from the unquestioned starter even if McDermott names him the starting QB tomorrow.

42 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

I think Allen is better now, and has a much higher ceiling. If the team is going to fail because the oline sucks, it is going to fail.  I think every team plays its best QB.  It would be weird if  San Diego decided, "our oline sucks this year, we aren't going to make the playoffs lets sit Rivers so he doesn't get hurt" 

 

Rivers is an established vet.  You aren't going to make his habits better or worse.  They are what they are.

 

Allen is still young and learning.  You don't want him getting clobbered constantly and getting happy feet.  I don't think he's mentally frail so I don't think he'll get shell-shocked.  But it's hard to teach proper mechanics and footwork when there's not a big enough pocket to use proper footwork or mechanics.

 

The problem with a really bad OL could be that Allen ends up having to constantly play hero ball, throwing with awkward deliveries from awkward angles.  We've seen him do that already this preseason with some success.  But repetition is key.  He needs a cleaner pocket so he can develop some good habits.  I'm not saying NO pressure, but if yesterday is indicative of how bad our OL is, he will almost NEVER have a clean pocket and is going to develop bad habits.

[PlayoffsPlease]

11 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Those who are ignoring Peterman's preseason statistics or who are putting an asterisk next to them (I'd fall under the latter group) are looking at the kinds of throws Peterman has been making.

 

He's been very good at what he's been asked to do, but the vast majority of his throws have been pretty short quick throws with little to no defensive pressure in his face.  At least 2 of his TDs this preseason were to wide open TEs on pretty clearly busted coverages.

 

So, are all of these open WRs and TEs he's getting the ball to wide open because of his doing or bad defense?

 

If they're open somehow because of him, whether through audibles at the line or whatever, then that's awesome and impressive on his part.

 

To me, I saw a lot of bad defense when Peterman played, particularly against the Browns and Bengals.

 

 

This hype train on Peterman's preseason play just reminds me of last year, when everyone watched him and also hyped up his play because he looked like a savvy vet or something in preseason.

 

Then the Chargers game happened.

 

Pump the brakes.

 

Reality is surely in the middle here.

 

Peterman has improved from last season, but a lot of his same flaws are still there, particularly his arm strength.  And I don't think we'll know until we see him playing a real NFL defense in regular season action whether he can capably hold the reins for any period of time.

 

He may have earned the starting job for week 1.  But he'd be far from the unquestioned starter even if McDermott names him the starting QB tomorrow.

 

Rivers is an established vet.  You aren't going to make his habits better or worse.  They are what they are.

 

Allen is still young and learning.  You don't want him getting clobbered constantly and getting happy feet.  I don't think he's mentally frail so I don't think he'll get shell-shocked.  But it's hard to teach proper mechanics and footwork when there's not a big enough pocket to use proper footwork or mechanics.

 

The problem with a really bad OL could be that Allen ends up having to constantly play hero ball, throwing with awkward deliveries from awkward angles.  We've seen him do that already this preseason with some success.  But repetition is key.  He needs a cleaner pocket so he can develop some good habits.  I'm not saying NO pressure, but if yesterday is indicative of how bad our OL is, he will almost NEVER have a clean pocket and is going to develop bad habits.

Allen's mechanics (like every QB) will not be remotely effected by the the 30 throws a week he makes in game conditions.  That is pure nonsense.  Game conditions are about getting used to the speed of the game. And getting used to have Ducasse pushed into you. 

[jrober38]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Please stop pushing the narrative Allen is still a huge project who needs 2-3 years on the bench.

 

He doesn't.

 

The only reason Allen should be on the bench at this point is because we don't have even an adequate Offensive Line by NFL standards.

 

That's it.

 

If the Bills had the OL of the Cowboys or Raiders, Allen would be the starter and would probably find a lot of success.

 

He wouldn't be the worst starting QB in the NFL, as you postulated a few posts ago saying the Bills automatically have the worst QB in the league already, no matter who starts.

 

This is your opinion. 

 

I disagree with all of it. 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

 

This is your opinion. 

 

I disagree with all of it. 

 

And you're entitled to your opinion, even if it's incorrect.