National Josh Allen buzz after 1 preseason half

[John from Riverside]

28 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I have half a dozens responding posts that state I am wrong in making such an obvious claim. Of course it is crazy talk to believe that Allen is capable of being as accurate passers as these two HOF qbs. Tell the zealots, not me, to come back to reality.  

Or the actual reality that Josh Allen does not need to be Tom Brady in order to be our franchise QB So why does he need to be compared to him whenever he compares more to Matt Stafford or big ben

Edited August 12, 2018 by John from Riverside

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Or the actual reality that Josh Allen does not need to be Tom Brady in order to be our franchise QB So why does he need to be compared to him whenever he compares more to Matt Stafford or big ben

Trust me, I'm realistic about my expectations on Allen. I expect him to be a franchise qb. That is better than what we have had for a quarter century. 

[Shaw66]

9 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

I disagree with you buddy, and I like your posts in general.

 

Favre, Young, McNabb, Rogers and others benefited from sitting.

 

So will Allen. AJM will be aok this year.

 

I wasn't talking about sitting.   I have mixed views about sitting.

 

I was talking about the value of bringing in your backup guy lat in the game where you've already lost or you need a miracle comeback.  

 

I think you learn some things about how to play QB by sitting, watching and studying.  You learn some things by playing.   What I said was I don't think that playing in mop-up time is very valuable experience.   It isn't a substitute for being a starter and preparing and playing every week.

 

Sitting is fine.   Playing right away is fine.  Different approaches for different guys may make sense.   But getting five minutes of playing time late in five lost-cause games doesn't add much to either approach.  Adds a little, but it's not a strategy that I think is worth pursuing.  

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I have half a dozens responding posts that state I am wrong in making such an obvious claim. Of course it is crazy talk to believe that Allen is capable of being as accurate passers as these two HOF qbs. Tell the zealots, not me, to come back to reality.  

I see I've sparked an ongoing discussion about this.   I think what you say is simply foolish.  

 

It was crazy talk 20 years ago to say that by 2015 more photographs will have been taken on people's telephones than with cameras in the history of the world, but it happened. 

 

To say that something is impossible five years from now is simply foolish.   

 

Josh Allen is a superior athlete.   I don't know you, but I'm a decent athlete and I'm absolutely certain that I can't truly comprehend what it means to be an athlete in his class.   He's bigger, faster, stronger than I am, and probably than you too.   He throws a football in a way that very, very few people on the planet can throw a football.

 

He's going to have five years of year-round training and coaching with the best trainers and coaches in the country.   He's going to practice and play.   To think that it's impossible - IMPOSSIBLE - for a man like that with that kind of developmental activity in front of him can't be as accurate a thrower as two guys who clearly are not as good pure athletes is simply foolish.   

 

That's like saying that a 21-year old golfer ranked 50th in putting in the PGA today cannot possibly be the best putter on the tour five years from now.   

 

All kinds of people in all kinds of disciplines - actors, musicians, doctors, lawyers, athletes - get better at what they do through study, practice and coaching.   Lawyers and doctors are MUCH better at what they do five years after they finish school.   This idea that some people have that among all the detailed disciplines in the world, passing accuracy is somehow the only thing that a professional cannot improve is simply foolish.  

 

Allen's a great athlete with a great arm.   To be OF THE OPINION that he never will develop supreme accuracy is fine.  That's your opinion.   But to suggest that a superior athlete with a great arm ABSOLUTELY CANNOT develop that accuracy with years of coaching, training and practice is simply foolish.  

[Nihilarian]

20 hours ago, JohnC said:

Of course no one knew how great Brady was going to be when he was selected. What I do know now is that he is arguably the greatest qb in modern times. I'm confident that Allen who was not known as a precise passer in college will never attain the Brady level of accuracy. If you disagree with that then so be it. 

2

The thing is, as good as Darnold (64.9 comp%) and Mayfield (68.5 comp %)were in college with their accuracy. Josh Allen was the only QB in this year draft class to hit the crossbar from 35 yards away with one pass for Trent Dilfer's soul, science camp.

 

As far as the accuracy issues with Allen goes, it was all about his footwork and none of his college coaches worked with him on that issue. After his final year in college, he worked with Jordan Palmer and started working on his footwork which showed in the senior bowl and at his pro day. During his time at the combine, he met with Mike Mayock and acknowledged that his footwork was whacked in college.

 

Palmer has stated that he has fixed Allen's footwork and that Allen simply needs to keep working at it.

 

 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

I see I've sparked an ongoing discussion about this.   I think what you say is simply foolish.  

 

It was crazy talk 20 years ago to say that by 2015 more photographs will have been taken on people's telephones than with cameras in the history of the world, but it happened. 

 

To say that something is impossible five years from now is simply foolish.   

 

Josh Allen is a superior athlete.   I don't know you, but I'm a decent athlete and I'm absolutely certain that I can't truly comprehend what it means to be an athlete in his class.   He's bigger, faster, stronger than I am, and probably than you too.   He throws a football in a way that very, very few people on the planet can throw a football.

 

He's going to have five years of year-round training and coaching with the best trainers and coaches in the country.   He's going to practice and play.   To think that it's impossible - IMPOSSIBLE - for a man like that with that kind of developmental activity in front of him can't be as accurate a thrower as two guys who clearly are not as good pure athletes is simply foolish.   

 

That's like saying that a 21-year old golfer ranked 50th in putting in the PGA today cannot possibly be the best putter on the tour five years from now.   

 

All kinds of people in all kinds of disciplines - actors, musicians, doctors, lawyers, athletes - get better at what they do through study, practice and coaching.   Lawyers and doctors are MUCH better at what they do five years after they finish school.   This idea that some people have that among all the detailed disciplines in the world, passing accuracy is somehow the only thing that a professional cannot improve is simply foolish.  

 

Allen's a great athlete with a great arm.   To be OF THE OPINION that he never will develop supreme accuracy is fine.  That's your opinion.   But to suggest that a superior athlete with a great arm ABSOLUTELY CANNOT develop that accuracy with years of coaching, training and practice is simply foolish.  

I will say with ho hesitation that Allen will never develop that accuracy that Brees or Brady has. There is no debate that Allen is a superior athlete to either of the HOF qbs. But his game is different from the other two. If you think he has the potential to become such a precise passer then you are entitled to your opinion. I'm standing hard and fast to my opinion. What's obvious to me is certainly not obvious to you. So be it. You may think that my opinion is foolish. That's okay. I can handle that judgment because I think your position is ridiculously foolish.

1 minute ago, Nihilarian said:

The thing is, as good as Darnold (64.9 comp%) and Mayfield (68.5 comp %)were in college with their accuracy. Josh Allen was the only QB in this year draft class to hit the crossbar from 35 yards away with one pass for Trent Dilfer's soul, science camp.

 

As far as the accuracy issues with Allen goes, it was all about his footwork and none of his college coaches worked with him on that issue. After his final year in college, he worked with Jordan Palmer and started working on his footwork which showed in the senior bowl and at his pro day. During his time at the combine, he met with Mike Mayock and acknowledged that his footwork was whacked in college.

 

Palmer has stated that he has fixed Allen's footwork and that Allen simply needs to keep working at it.

 

 

Brees and Brady are a couple of the most accurate passers in the history of the game. If you believe that Allen has the potential to match them then believe it. Join with some of the others in the delusional hometown fan club. I'm confident in the position that I have taken.  

[Dr. Who]

Both of you fellas are good posters. You're nitpicking and getting all upset about not much, imo. In general, I agree with John C that Allen's game could very well be exceptional and still be unlikely to match Brees and Brady for accuracy. I agree with Shaw one cannot make an apodictic statement to that effect. Unlikely is not impossible. Now please stop arguing.

[Nihilarian]

20 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I will say with ho hesitation that Allen will never develop that accuracy that Brees or Brady has. There is no debate that Allen is a superior athlete to either of the HOF qbs. But his game is different from the other two. If you think he has the potential to become such a precise passer then you are entitled to your opinion. I'm standing hard and fast to my opinion. What's obvious to me is certainly not obvious to you. So be it. You may think that my opinion is foolish. That's okay. I can handle that judgment because I think your position is ridiculously foolish.

Brees and Brady are a couple of the most accurate passers in the history of the game. If you believe that Allen has the potential to match them then believe it. Join with some of the others in the delusional hometown fan club. I'm confident in the position that I have taken.  

3

3

Brady has a career 63.9 comp percentage. Brees in his career has a much better 66.9 completion percentage.

 

Brees has the NFL's best ever completion percentage. Warner, Cousins, P Manning, Romo, Rodgers are all in the 65 comp % range. 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_cmp_perc_career.htm

 

I don't think it's that far fetched that Allen can someday attain a percentage between Brady and Brees. 

 

EDIT: I think what you are missing John is a big reason as to why Beane/McD drafted Allen over Rosen who as of now is the more polished QB. My take is that they think he can become a very accurate passer in the NFL given time to develop.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Nihilarian

[Dr. K]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Both of you fellas are good posters. You're nitpicking and getting all upset about not much, imo. In general, I agree with John C that Allen's game could very well be exceptional and still be unlikely to match Brees and Brady for accuracy. I agree with Shaw one cannot make an apodictic statement to that effect. Unlikely is not impossible. Now please stop arguing.

I'm with the man who knows what "apodictic" means. 

[ColoradoBills]

27 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I wasn't talking about sitting.   I have mixed views about sitting.

 

I was talking about the value of bringing in your backup guy lat in the game where you've already lost or you need a miracle comeback.  

 

I think you learn some things about how to play QB by sitting, watching and studying.  You learn some things by playing.   What I said was I don't think that playing in mop-up time is very valuable experience.   It isn't a substitute for being a starter and preparing and playing every week.

 

Sitting is fine.   Playing right away is fine.  Different approaches for different guys may make sense.   But getting five minutes of playing time late in five lost-cause games doesn't add much to either approach.  Adds a little, but it's not a strategy that I think is worth pursuing.  

 

Thanks for your reply. 

First let me reiterate my view on JA.  I think he needs to work on his foundation skills as long as possible before starting.

 

My main question was "Is there anything to gain by having JA come in a few times before he gets the "starter" nod"?

My example was having him come in for a complete 4th quarter. 

 

I guess I'm trying to figure a way to gage JAs play "before" he is named starter. 

My secondary question would be "Is there any negative effects in doing this"?

 

I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of fans calling for JA in these situations and I'm curious what TBD posters think ahead of time.

 

Personally,  I can't think of any harm to JA being called up in these situations.  He would on the other hand get some "real" NFL reps.

 

 

[njbuff]

The watch will be on weekly with these young QB's.

 

This week Allen would be number 3 of the five, then next week he will number 1 of the 5. Get my drift?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

 

and the problem with this analysis are the short, safe patterns the majority of your listed QB’s rely on. Allen had no such luxury in Big Sky country and is better than average attacking the secondary. He had 1 ‘in the hands’ drop on 3rd & Short his 1st series. All other safe passes were perfectly placed using a variety of throws (slinging, dropping over LBs, sidearm).

 

but I get it. Haters gonna Hate.

 

...sad isn't it bud?.....and I'm sure his collegiate stats easily translate into probable NFL success/performance.....they ALWAYS do, right?.......no way in hell level of competition, surrounding compliment of players on offense, coaching be it HC or OC/play calling could EVER enter into it right (COUGH)?......think the hating fickle get fickler?...naw not a chance........

[Shaw66]

37 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Both of you fellas are good posters. You're nitpicking and getting all upset about not much, imo. In general, I agree with John C that Allen's game could very well be exceptional and still be unlikely to match Brees and Brady for accuracy. I agree with Shaw one cannot make an apodictic statement to that effect. Unlikely is not impossible. Now please stop arguing.

Hey, we haven't overdone the arguing. Just back and forth a couple times.  

 

So long as it's clear, and it is now, that it's Johns opinion, I'm fine.  Like you, I think it doesn't make sense to think we can know what kind of QB he will be in five years.  If he doesnt think it will happen, fine. He may be right.  I just bristle when someone tells me no other outcome is possible. 

29 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Thanks for your reply. 

First let me reiterate my view on JA.  I think he needs to work on his foundation skills as long as possible before starting.

 

My main question was "Is there anything to gain by having JA come in a few times before he gets the "starter" nod"?

My example was having him come in for a complete 4th quarter. 

 

I guess I'm trying to figure a way to gage JAs play "before" he is named starter. 

My secondary question would be "Is there any negative effects in doing this"?

 

I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of fans calling for JA in these situations and I'm curious what TBD posters think ahead of time.

 

Personally,  I can't think of any harm to JA being called up in these situations.  He would on the other hand get some "real" NFL reps.

 

 

I don't think there's a lot gain doing that.  I agree, there's nothing to lose.  And all live game time is beneficial.

 

You don't see coaches do it very often any more.  I would guess they don't because they see little benefit, and they don't want all the QB controversy distraction.  When you insert a guy who looks like legitimate competition to your starter, then everybody, including the team, begins to get distracted.  Coaches don't want that.

 

But McD is fearless.  He showed it starting Peterman.  So maybe he would do what you suggest.  As I said, I don't see that it hurts.

[ColoradoBills]

21 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Hey, we haven't overdone the arguing. Just back and forth a couple times.  

 

So long as it's clear, and it is now, that it's Johns opinion, I'm fine.  Like you, I think it doesn't make sense to think we can know what kind of QB he will be in five years.  If he doesnt think it will happen, fine. He may be right.  I just bristle when someone tells me no other outcome is possible. 

I don't think there's a lot gain doing that.  I agree, there's nothing to lose.  And all live game time is beneficial.

 

You don't see coaches do it very often any more.  I would guess they don't because they see little benefit, and they don't want all the QB controversy distraction.  When you insert a guy who looks like legitimate competition to your starter, then everybody, including the team, begins to get distracted.  Coaches don't want that.

 

But McD is fearless.  He showed it starting Peterman.  So maybe he would do what you suggest.  As I said, I don't see that it hurts.

 

Good points made, thanks Shaw.

Distraction of the team is something to consider.

[Gugny]

On 8/11/2018 at 3:03 AM, transplantbillsfan said:

 

It's funny because all the negative buzz seems to be solely about that one 4th and 3 play. Nothing negative about him, otherwise

 

 

Awesome original post, man!!!  Thanks!

[LABILLBACKER]

I'll admit it. I wanted Rosen or Mayfield over Allen. But that 2nd half last Thursday really impressed me. I know it's early and I still believe he'll need a ton of development,  but his "projectability" is thru the roof. Stay tuned.....

[Logic]

Just wanted to say this:

Bills fans are going to need to learn to let the criticism of the national media as it relates to Josh Allen just roll off their backs.

The only thing that will silence those who seem to have a vested interest in his failing, is his having real success in the NFL. In the meantime, there will be a multitude of haters, mockery, and criticisms (both fair and unfair). It's just NOT going to go away unless and until Allen becomes a good NFL player. There's no sense in getting upset about it. Don't forget that most BILLS fans were anti Josh Allen (myself included) leading up to the draft. His donning the blue and red has changed a lot of opinions on this message board, but that doesn't mean that it's changed the opinions of any national media members. It's not exactly a mystery why people still have an "until proven otherwise, he stinks" mindset about Josh Allen. 

Let it go.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Logic

[ganesh]

11 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

I disagree with you buddy, and I like your posts in general.

 

Favre, Young, McNabb, Rogers and others benefited from sitting.

 

So will Allen. AJM will be aok this year.

 

It is not even clear if AJ will start this year.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[Mat68]

After Thursday night, if you are questioning Allen's accuracy you either didn't watch the game or have blind hatred for Allen.  He has the tools be one the purest passers in the league.  He made throws that really only Rodgers could complete.  I'm not sure if the game is slowed down enough to warrant starting week 1 but when he does look out.  Friday night when Allen has Coleman tracking the deep ball instead of Foster the conversation may be mute.  Foster pulls in either deep TD the national media is praising Allen as the steal of the draft.  The stats looked like he is inaccurate.  When really he had a guy give up on a route, and short arm another.