BillsPride12 Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 But with Josh Allen I don't even think it's a matter of ruining him by starting him too soon...it's simply the matter that he's taking a MAJOR jump from the level of play and competition he saw at Wyoming v.s. what he's in store for in the NFL and he needs a little bit of time to get used to playing ball at this level. In Allen's case it does make sense to sit back and absorb a little bit IMO.
jrober38 Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Aaron Rodgers Tom Brady Eli Manning Big Ben (injury forced him to start) Drew Brees Carson Palmer Phil Rivers Jared Goff kirk Cousins Matt Stafford no offense but you couldn’t be more wrong on this. In fact, it seems like most of the really good QBs sat at first. Now put together a list of all the guys who sat and never amounted to anything. * Hint: it's 10 times longer than your list. ** Big Ben, Brees, Manning, Goff, Cousins and Stafford all played as rookies, learning on the field. Edited July 31, 2018 by jrober38
JoeF Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 Think about the difficult decisions Beane and McDermott made to get us in position to draft a potential franchise QB. They traded Watkins, Darby, Ragland and eventually Dareus and got a partial year's contribution from EJ Gaines in return for all that. By the way, they still made the playoffs. They did this with a QB that the coach chose to bench and was likely convinced from about game 3 of the '17 season had no future in Buffalo. They traded Tyrod, Glenn to stockpile enough to get into the top 10. There is no question that Josh Allen has the most arm talent, mobility, athleticism of the three on the team right now. These are factors in this decision, but not the only factors. This Coach and this GM are not willing to throw away seasons. They will play the QB who provides the best chance to win with the team we have this year. The media will be clamoring for Allen and so will we...but I trust Beane and McDermott to play the QB who gives us the best chance to have the best 2018 possible. In most cases starting a Rookie does not ruin a QB as the list shows. Starting a QB who gives the team less of a chance to win than alternatives on the bench -- ruins and divides teams. McBeane won't let this happen. Guys like Lorax, Kyle, Shady, Hyde, TreDe, Dawkins, Benjamin, Clay won't stand for anything but a commitment to winning this year. 5
billsfan_34 Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 26 minutes ago, Augie said: He might have learned more in terms of humility than football had he sat. That could have been very helpful. Each guy is different. We’ll never know what might have happened. That’s life! So true!
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 13 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Now put together a list of all the guys who sat and never amounted to anything. * Hint: it's 10 times longer than your list. ** Big Ben, Brees, Manning, Goff, Cousins and Stafford all played as rookies, learning on the field. I’m not sure what you are arguing. I named some of the greatest qbs of this generation who benefited from sitting. It’s not 100% but man, it seems like guys do benefit from learning at first. My god, stupid people were calling Goff a bust after 7 games.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 1 hour ago, jrober38 said: If a QB can play, they usually show it very early on. I guess the devil is in the details of how you define “usually”, but there are a number of good or great QB who struggled in their first 2-3 years. The list would include Steve Young, Drew Brees, Alex Smith, Sam Bradford (6 freakin’ TD his 2nd year), Matt Stafford etc As far as the op, the thing is we don’t have a parallel universe where we can set up do-overs where they QB gets handled differently, so it’s pretty tough to tell. When a QB seems to be mishandled his first few years and flames out, people will always argue he wouldn’t have been good anyway. I think the clearest argument that a QB can be mishandled would be Case Keenum and Nick Foles. Kind of unusual to have two QB who both played poorly for a team relatively early in their careers, lighting the league on fire and meeting in the NFL Championship this year.
Lfod Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 I have made the argument for waiting to start Allen until Daboll has his offense established. It wasn't about ruining Allen. It was more about if Allen could be successful in the current situation or not. After some training camp and getting a peak at Daboll at work I at least feel better. It's not the same offense as last season so I'm feeling more open minded. We all have opinions and the story is going to play out anyway.
reddogblitz Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 1 hour ago, greeneblitz said: No, neither has ever shown a single sign that they would have been good only if... i disagree. In EJ's first game he left the field with a lead over the Patsies**. A Stevie drop on 3rd down late forcing us to punt. d Couldn't hold 'em. In the Cleveland game he was playing well and the popular TBD sentiment was we may have found our guy. Then injuries etc and rushing him back because we had no one else and he was out. I can't say a wait definitely would have helped him nor can you say it wouldn't. How can you tell David Carr would have done better had they held no out ahead to build the line? As it went down he spent most of the time on his back.
Augie Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, reddogblitz said: i disagree. In EJ's first game he left the field with a lead over the Patsies**. A Stevie drop on 3rd down late forcing us to punt. d Couldn't hold 'em. In the Cleveland game he was playing well and the popular TBD sentiment was we may have found our guy. Then injuries etc and rushing him back because we had no one else and he was out. I can't say a wait definitely would have helped him nor can you say it wouldn't. How can you tell David Carr would have done better had they held no out ahead to build the line? As it went down he spent most of the time on his back. And possibly wondering what city he was in....
xxxxxxxx Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) If you believe in sports pyschology, yes.You can damage a QB by throwing him in too soon. And lets be honest here. This fanbase does not have a very good record of being patient when it comes to QB development. Start Allen too early and people will be calling for his head too quickly. And in the age of social media that can really mess with a guy's head. It already happened to Kizer last year, and I hope that it doesn't happen again with Allen. Edited July 31, 2018 by MURPHD6
Jerome007 Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 With Woods and Incognito gone, no real threat as far as we can see at WR which means opposing defenses can crowd the box and focus on Shady, there's not that many QBs that would succeed here! I'm all for starting Allen but I feel the current situation might ruin his confidence. Good QBs make their teammates better... but it goes both ways. I've never been negative before a Bills season but I am now. I see a serious lack of talent on offense. I want to be proven wrong, way wrong LOL but that's what I see. 2019 sounds great though with the salary cap situation but you always have to win NOW. The Bills sure proved this last year! They squeaked by but they did it. And showed they could (and should) have beaten the Jags too. So if there is a surprise star on the OL and WR group, OC is a magician, and the QB is on a streak, anything can happen! But betting odds look bleak for this year. 1
BillsFan130 Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 2 hours ago, reddogblitz said: EJ and David Carr. Do you really think EJ would have been good if he sat a year though? I certainly don't 1
mannc Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 2 hours ago, reddogblitz said: EJ and David Carr. So EJ would be a starting QB somewhere if only he hadn’t started as a rookie? Ridiculous take.
NewEra Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) After reading this thread I’ve come to the conclusion that no one has a clue if a QB can be ruined but starting him prematurely Edited July 31, 2018 by NewEra 2
Green Lightning Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 54 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I guess the devil is in the details of how you define “usually”, but there are a number of good or great QB who struggled in their first 2-3 years. The list would include Steve Young, Drew Brees, Alex Smith, Sam Bradford (6 freakin’ TD his 2nd year), Matt Stafford etc As far as the op, the thing is we don’t have a parallel universe where we can set up do-overs where they QB gets handled differently, so it’s pretty tough to tell. When a QB seems to be mishandled his first few years and flames out, people will always argue he wouldn’t have been good anyway. I think the clearest argument that a QB can be mishandled would be Case Keenum and Nick Foles. Kind of unusual to have two QB who both played poorly for a team relatively early in their careers, lighting the league on fire and meeting in the NFL Championship this year. Thoughtful and reasoned post. I agree. 1
Freddie's Dead Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 What damages the QB is when they get pulled if they have some struggles, like EJ. Especially for a no talent gutless bum like Orton.
mannc Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 I think it’s possible that Peterman was ruined by being forced to start the SD game, but you could never convince me that he would have amounted to anything anyway.
Orlando Buffalo Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 In a different direction(trying to make the point that the individual matters) Rich Gannon was on his 4th or 5th team before becoming MVP David Carr started right away and become terrible as his line left him to be destroyed and never recovered. EJ played his "best" early in his first year and steadily got worse.(he almost beat NE week one and I believe Marrone told him" do not lose game" which is crippling to a guy who is learning) Rodgers obviously has become good after sitting 3 or 4 years. I would also argue Josh Freeman as a perfect example Basically if you start a guy who starts to believe his limited arsenal is enough you will ruin him, and every qb starts with a limited arsenal.
Elite Poster Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Aaron Rodgers Tom Brady Eli Manning Big Ben (injury forced him to start) Drew Brees Carson Palmer Phil Rivers Jared Goff kirk Cousins Matt Stafford no offense but you couldn’t be more wrong on this. In fact, it seems like most of the really good QBs sat at first. The problem is the timeline. These guys all seem to have come long ago when the rules and offenses weren't built around elevating the passing game and protecting the QB.
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