Allen already a factor in QB race ?

[first_and_ten]

25 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

The key word in my post was "pretend".  The better competition is having a legit starter, even a low level one, so that Allen could have a real standard to measure himself against -- and Bills coaches and fans, too.   If Allen beats out McCarron and Peterman, it tells no one anything about whether he can be a decent NFL starter.  If he beat out Taylor, we'd at least have an idea of his base.  If he failed to beat out Taylor in his first TC (most likely), then he'd have at least an intermediate goal to aim for. 

 

 

So you're saying they should have kept Taylor

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 minutes ago, SoTier said:

Will you still be "in" after a 2 or 3 win season in which the Bills fail to score an offensive TD in 4 or more games?  What about multiple losing seasons?

 

Given their current track record on trading/releasing players and even coordinators, if there is a 2 or 3 win season I would expect Beane to make significant moves to attempt to change.  I'll wait to see multiple losing seasons before I pass judgement there - they managed 9-7 their first year.

 

16 minutes ago, SoTier said:

This really disturbs me.  For all the change in ownership, FO, and coaching staff, the Bills seem to be handling their QBs in 2018 just like they did they did in 2013.

 

2013

1. released Fitzpatrick before the draft
2. signed Kevin Kolb as FA - history of numerous injuries over his career
3. drafted EJ Manuel in the first round of the draft
4. other QBs: Thad Lewis (udfa), Jeff Tuel (udfa)

2018

1. traded Taylor before the draft
2. signed AJ McCarron as FA - spent his entire career as a backup
3. drafted Josh Allen in the first round of the draft
4. other QBs: Nate Peterman (5th rounder)

For those of you who don't remember 2013, Kolb failed to make it even to the first preseason game, apparently tripping on a bathmat and suffering yet another injury, opening the door for EJ Manuel to become the starter as he then had such great competition.  The Bills in 2018 seem to be much more open about eliminating Allen's competition: they didn't even bother to sign failed starter to pretend to give Allen competition. 

 

The more I see of McDermott/Beane regime, the more I'm seeing the same old disinterest in winning football games often enough to make the playoffs more than once every 2 decades.

 

Seriously?  You can see no differences between the way Nix (on his way out at GM, after 4 years) and Beane (in his first year) are handling the roster?

 

I'm not even one of the "trust the process, I BILLieve" crowd who are giving them 100% benefit of the doubt, yet I can see and acknowledge significant differences.   I think the place to start would probably be Beane's 1st year as GM relative to Nix 1st year as GM.   Here are a few:

1) Nix kept the scouting staff intact initially in 2010.  He finally fired Modrak and made some changes in 2011, only after a full year and 2 drafts.

     Beane came in with a broom, swept the place clean, and hired back only those he felt earned it along with some fresh blood

2) Although the Bills were changing defensive scheme from 4-3 to 3-4 in 2010, very few roster changes were made to support that.  The Bills LB corps were initially filled with scraps from other team's cut-off bins.  Anyone else remember Akin Ayodele, Andra Davis, and Reggie Torbor?  Dwan Edwards and Marcus Stroud?  In contrast, Beane has been very aggressive with trades and FA signings as well as a lot of draft picks who are playing.

3) Beane's attitude seems to be of limited patience.  He doesn't care what a guy's draft position or pre-draft profile was.  Perform, bust your a** or get out.  Dareus gone.  Watkins gone.  Picks back.  In contrast, Nix gave underperforming poor-scheme-fit players like Maybin and Posluzney a year, got nothing for players who left in FA, and then whined in that leaked phone call about having so few draft picks "what can you do with 5 picks?"  Nix brought in Shawne Merriman and kept him on the roster as a literal "lame duck" for 2 years.  Patience is NOT always a virtue in football.
4) Difference in record.  Nix first year: record dropped from 6-10 to 4-12.  Beane first year record improved 7-9 to 9-7.  Nevertheless, instead of whining about "QB purgatory", Beane managed to accumulate the draft capital to move up and grab a player.  I don't know if he's the right player - the difference to me is that Beane positioned the Bills to take a shot.

5) George Edwards is now my Exhibit A as to how hapless the Bills player personnel moves were under Nix.  I'll be honest: I thought he just sucked as a DC in 2010-11.  He took over the Vikes in 2014 and moved their D from 32 to 11th to 5th to 6th to #1.   So now I see it is he had sucky player personnel support in Buffalo, and given the right tools for the job, the man knows how to get it done.

 

I don't know if McDermott and Beane are the right men for the job, but I think there's plenty of empirical evidence that they differ substantially from the previous regime(s)

 

 

 

 

 

[John from Riverside]

15 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I've noticed that you like to label posters you don't agree with as "trolls".  I'm crushed.  NOT.

 

  Get back to me when the Bills offense isn't ranked in the bottom third of the NFL in other categories than rushing.

I have noticed that you like to encite and argue with others a lot.....

 

So has pretty much all the board

[oldmanfan]

21 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I've noticed that you like to label posters you don't agree with as "trolls".  I'm crushed.  NOT.

 

  Get back to me when the Bills offense isn't ranked in the bottom third of the NFL in other categories than rushing.

When they are, what will you complain about then?

[first_and_ten]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

When they are, what will you complain about then?

 

I suppose keeping Taylor would have been smart. Then we could finish 29 again.

[GunnerBill]

26 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

It's his rookie season.  You're putting way too much into this.  You don't always need top competition to be an indicator if a guy is going to be good or not.

 

Carson Wentz competed against Chase Daniels and Josh Huff.

Matt Ryan competed against DJ Shockley

 

 

I think you're way overthinking this.

 

Wentz actually competed against Bradford and failed to win the job.  Then Teddy went down, Min traded for Bradford a week before the season opener (a deal Philly couldn't turn down because it gave them their 1st round pick back) and all of a sudden Wentz was the starter.  

[Seanbillsfan2206]

25 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

1998 called and said they wanted their “not” back.

More like 91-92. But it did make a brief comeback when Borat came out in 2006

[Royale with Cheese]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Wentz actually competed against Bradford and failed to win the job.  Then Teddy went down, Min traded for Bradford a week before the season opener (a deal Philly couldn't turn down because it gave them their 1st round pick back) and all of a sudden Wentz was the starter.  

 

Yeah now that I think about it....you're right about Wentz.

I could have used many other and better examples.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

42 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

The key word in my post was "pretend".  The better competition is having a legit starter, even a low level one, so that Allen could have a real standard to measure himself against -- and Bills coaches and fans, too.   If Allen beats out McCarron and Peterman, it tells no one anything about whether he can be a decent NFL starter.  If he beat out Taylor, we'd at least have an idea of his base.  If he failed to beat out Taylor in his first TC (most likely), then he'd have at least an intermediate goal to aim for. 

 

 

Given the fact that AJM did play a stretch of games and a playoff game, I think he could be argued as having a legit starter.  He's certainly demonstrated low-level starter abilities.  Whether it means anything for Allen to beat AJM out depends entirely on how Daboll and McDermott (and Beane I guess) are grading. 

 

The real Achilles heel of the 2013 strategy was the personnel choices.  Nix replaced a very durable, available guy (Fitz) with German-word-for-made-of-Glass Kolb.

Nix also passed over one of the best, richest QB drafts in recent memory to take the "best" guy in one of the worst classes.  Would you feel better if the Bills had signed Cherokee-word-for-made-of-Glass Bradford as a starter for $20M?     I wouldn't.

 

 

[oldmanfan]

Should anyone be shocked that a first round draft pick is a factor in the QB race?  About as much shock as finding out that water is wet.

 

He may be a factor, but to me it would be a shock if McCarron isn't behind center opening day. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Wentz actually competed against Bradford and failed to win the job.  Then Teddy went down, Min traded for Bradford a week before the season opener (a deal Philly couldn't turn down because it gave them their 1st round pick back) and all of a sudden Wentz was the starter.  

 

This is true.  But I think it could also be argued that Philly could and would have turned the deal down if they didn't feel Wentz was at a stage where he could play in the NFL.

They also had Chase Daniel as Plan C, a very AJM-like guy - he has demonstrated in cameo appearances that he actually can play at a low-level-starter grade, at least against the Chargers.  (See 2013 KC vs SD,  2014 KC vs SD).

 

1 hour ago, blacklabel said:

Wouldn't be surprised if he wound up winning the job. The fact that I see multiple reporters tweeting things like, "Allen is out here throwing passes the other two QBs wouldn't even think of trying" is pretty encouraging.

 

I'm glad it encourages you.  The thing is, that was known before the draft.  Allen has an arm.  He can throw passes a number of successful NFL starters wouldn't even think of trying.  That's not the question.

 

The real questions that need encouraging answers are:

1) can he master the passes where he is inaccurate - the short passes, the dump-offs?  A point guard in Bball has to hit the bunnies, a QB in the NFL has to hit the dump-offs and the 0-10 yd range

2) can he master the offense and read the defense well enough to make good decisions with the ball?  People frustrated with Taylor's conservatism fail to remember how frustrated we all became when "Fitzmagic" (who unlike Edwards, would actually make reads and take shots downfield) became "Pickspatrick" because of his pattern to make bad decisions and throw picks at the worst time of the game.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is true.  But I think it could also be argued that Philly could and would have turned the deal down if they didn't feel Wentz was at a stage where he could play in the NFL.

 

Oh for sure. I think they were impressed by Wentz but Bradford is a decent Quarterback who was coming off a really strong 2nd half of that prior season - I think had the Teddy injury not happened he'd have started for 6 weeks or so.  

[Sky Diver]

1 hour ago, teef said:

this just isn't true.  not everything could be fixed with one offseason, and i'm sure you'll see a more offensive heavy draft/fa period.  Tier...you know you're stuff, but you just have a tendency to take the most negative/angry approach to all things bills.  this bills team in no way reminds me of regimes past.  it's just my opinion, you'd have to ignore what's happening at obd to not realize what they're trying to create here.

 

let me put this out there:   it's not about this year.  

 

Negative/angry is the general MO here.

[eball]

56 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I've noticed that you like to label posters you don't agree with as "trolls".  I'm crushed.  NOT.

 

  Get back to me when the Bills offense isn't ranked in the bottom third of the NFL in other categories than rushing.

 

Way to not address the issue -- which is that you claim our GM and HC don't care about offense.  That's ludicrous.  And I said I couldn't tell whether or not you're a troll, because your argument is so ridiculous that it's hard to imagine someone actually thinks that way.  I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt by implying you may be a troll.

 

I may have been wrong there.

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Way to not address the issue -- which is that you claim our GM and HC don't care about offense.  That's ludicrous.  And I said I couldn't tell whether or not you're a troll, because your argument is so ridiculous that it's hard to imagine someone actually thinks that way.  I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt by implying you may be a troll.

 

I may have been wrong there.

 

[Alphadawg7]

57 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

It's his rookie season.  You're putting way too much into this.  You don't always need top competition to be an indicator if a guy is going to be good or not.

 

Carson Wentz competed against Chase Daniels and Josh Huff.

Matt Ryan competed against DJ Shockley

 

 

I think you're way overthinking this.

 

Yes he is, so very much. 

[beerme1]

8 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I'd like to see AJ play a little  in real games as a Bill first to say one way or the other.

 

I'm not knocking AJ by any means but I see him as a career backup. Not a franchise guy. At best he is a placeholder for a year and I can live with that.

 

 

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

Will you still be "in" after a 2 or 3 win season in which the Bills fail to score an offensive TD in 4 or more games?  What about multiple losing seasons?

The Bills in 2018 seem to be much more open about eliminating Allen's competition: they didn't even bother to sign failed starter to pretend to give Allen competition. 

 

The more I see of McDermott/Beane regime, the more I'm seeing the same old disinterest in winning football games often enough to make the playoffs more than once every 2 decades.

 

You serious? Nah you can't be serious. What a joke your comments are. You win the off season for dumb dumb.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

People frustrated with Taylor's conservatism fail to remember how frustrated we all became when "Fitzmagic" (who unlike Edwards, would actually make reads and take shots downfield) became "Pickspatrick" because of his pattern to make bad decisions and throw picks at the worst time of the game.

 

 

 

I remember. So deflating. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Here is how the Bills have split quarterback reps in regular 11-on-11 drills through the first four practices of training camp: First team: AJ McCarron (19), Nathan Peterman (17), Josh Allen (9); Second team: Peterman (23), McCarron (22); Third team: Allen (35), Peterman (5), McCarron (4).

 

 

 

For those asking about reps 

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Yeppers.

**it means yep or yeah**

Oh, I always thought that was a cuss word in Yiddish .....  

 

    LOL 

 

[teef]

28 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Should anyone be shocked that a first round draft pick is a factor in the QB race?  About as much shock as finding out that water is wet.

 

He may be a factor, but to me it would be a shock if McCarron isn't behind center opening day. 

i'm still at the mental point where i prefer this.

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, teef said:

i'm still at the mental point where i prefer this.

Frankly I am there as well

 

Josh Allen is gonna happen eventually....but it seems to me like AJM is as advertised.....a steady veteran....no wow plays....just completes throws with decent accuracy

 

Unless Josh completely blows away his competition there is NOTHING wrong with giving him a hold the clipboard year and let him see how the NFL works.....let AJM take the enterprise out of home dock.......let our probably greatly improved defense do their thing.....and then next year use that cap space and the wonderful fact that we didnt sacrifice our 1st round pick to get more talent on the offensive side of the ball......

 

If Allen gets on the field one way or another this year......so be it