So how is josh Rosen doing.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, MURPHD6 said:

The question comes down to what went on behind the scenes and the evaluations that were being made. So you also can't prove that he didn't beat out Smith, either. There is no way to tell how well Mahomes was playing during closed practices.

 

It's pretty well established that during the season, the back up QB's job is to run the scout team with the backups, to prepare the D for the coming week.

The backup gets few if any reps with the offensive starters.

 

Now this isn't my circus - I'm not the one trying to claim it's "splitting hairs" to think Mahomes didn't "beat out" Alex Smith.  That's your claim, and you get the burden of proof.

 

Mahomes was clearly drafted to be the future.  You don't trade up in the 1st for a guy you intend to park indefinitely on the bench.  But given the above well-known fact of NFL life in-season, and given Alex Smith's performance last season, yeah, it's kind of a stretch to think Mahomes demonstrated superior performance to Smith in any apples-to-apples sense of how the term is usually used.

 

[xxxxxxxx]

19 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

There's no splitting of hairs.  Mahomes neither technically nor actually beat out Alex Smith.  Reid had to ship-out Alex Smith for the sake of all involved, not dissimilar to what happened with him previously in SF. 

 

As for Reid being "one of the best developers of QB's," no, that's not correct either.  McNabb was the only QB he's ever actually had a hand in developing, but he was a 2nd overall pick so it's not like he was working with some no-talent nobody.  But while McNabb was a good QB, he will never be a HOF'er.  If you want to give him credit for Favre and the aforementioned Alex Smith, that dog won't hunt.

No. Your wrong. Reid's track record with Qb's is impressive; its been written about alot, and he's respected. He got good production out of Kolb, for crying out loud.

[Doc]

6 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

No. Your wrong. Reid's track record with Qb's is impressive; its been written about alot, and he's respected. He got good production out of Kolb, for crying out loud.

 

Kolb produced something.  It wasn't very good, but it was something.  If that's your standard, so be it.

[xxxxxxxx]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's pretty well established that during the season, the back up QB's job is to run the scout team with the backups, to prepare the D for the coming week.

The backup gets few if any reps with the offensive starters.

 

Now this isn't my circus - I'm not the one trying to claim it's "splitting hairs" to think Mahomes didn't "beat out" Alex Smith.  That's your claim, and you get the burden of proof.

 

Mahomes was clearly drafted to be the future.  You don't trade up in the 1st for a guy you intend to park indefinitely on the bench.  But given the above well-known fact of NFL life in-season, and given Alex Smith's performance last season, yeah, it's kind of a stretch to think Mahomes demonstrated superior performance to Smith in any apples-to-apples sense of how the term is usually used.

 

Beating someone out doesn't necessarily mean superior performance, either, if you want to go the sematics route. Lots of players win competitions for playing time without being superior (its what upside is all about). That is why the argument with regard to whether he did or didn't beat Smith out is splitting hairs in my opinion. "Beating someone out is a colloquial" term to begin with, and you can beat someone out for a position without a superior performance in sports. And there's no apples to apples sense when it comes to qb evaluation (they aren't apples they are qbs) and that was not what I was referring to when I used a term that is generally interpreted more fluidly.

If you want to debate use of a colloquial term your splitting hairs, in my opinion, in the sense that you are trying to make a very narrow distinction based on your  interpretation of a term when others don't necessarily define the term in the same way, just so you can say that someone is wrong. Thats just creating noise to try and drown someone out.

And when the argument is that Allen is better than Mahomes, bickering over use of the term beat him out is pointless. Its just a distraction, noise that Doc is creating to make me look like I'm wrong, when there isn't alot of evidence that he can rely on to say that Allen is in fact better, at this point at least: he hasn't thown a pass in an exhibition game even.

Edited July 30, 2018 by MURPHD6

[thenorthremembers]

35 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

No. Your wrong. Reid's track record with Qb's is impressive; its been written about alot, and he's respected. He got good production out of Kolb, for crying out loud.

 

To be fair, since becoming a head coach a predominance of his work has come with three quarterbacks since 1999.  McNabb, Vick and Alex Smith.    I would argue outside of Smith, the other two players were always going to be good, with or without Reid.

 

Kolb never threw for more than 10 touchdowns in a season, and his other starting quarterback was Doug Pederson who threw for 7 touchdowns and 9 interceptions.    Not arguing Reid isn't a good coach, one of my favorites actually, but there may have been some luck involved as well. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by thenorthremembers

[oldmanfan]

Never have understood the accolades Reid gets

[xxxxxxxx]

8 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

 

To be fair, since becoming a head coach a predominance of his work has come with three quarterbacks since 1999.  McNabb, Vick and Alex Smith.    I would argue outside of Smith, the other two players were always going to be good, with or without Reid.

 

Kolb never threw for more than 10 touchdowns in a season, and his other starting quarterback was Doug Pederson who threw for 7 touchdowns and 9 interceptions.    Not arguing Reid is a good coach, one of my favorites actually, but there may have been some luck involved as well. 

I don't think he's a good coach either.

Just that he knows QB's better than most. He has a good sense of a guys ceiling and basement, which is why he also traded away alot of guys that went on to suck elsewhere. Arguably, that is why he has held a job for so long when his game management is crap.

He did get a couple of 300 yard games out of Kolb and thats impressive given how much Kolb sucked overall. Our coaching staff couldn't get Kolb past a floor mat.

Edited July 30, 2018 by MURPHD6

[Troll Toll]

One takeaway from a recent interview with Beane was that they were desperate on draft day not to get stuck with Rosen. 

 

I wanted Darnold the most, followed by Mayfield. I was initially really disappointed with the Allen pick. Allen has really impressed me since then and I get a sense that he will “belong” in the conversation for best young QB. I just feel that “it” factor... the one Whaley proclaimed for EJ, but which I never felt.

[Green Lightning]

I don't buy into Reids QB legend as well, but I have to admit I'll be watching Mahomes and what happens in Arizona closely this year. I am very interested to see what they saw in those quarterbacks that we didn't.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

If what Coaches and GMs said was true - that evaluation is based overwhelmingly on game film, not the Combine, then Allen would have never been selected at #7. 

 

Of course some fans wanted Rosen, it’s logical that they would. Josh Allen is a Bill now so of course the only narrative one can parrot is unwavering support. 

 

Oh well, I hope Rosen stinks and Allen is good. Hope Mahomes and Watson stink too. The Bills passed on a few productive QBs to trade up for a guy that had 17 TDs his last year in college. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Torrey]

8 hours ago, The Process said:

Without doing my homework ...... I can't think of many teams that have had more than two franchise QBs in their entire history...

You need to educate yourself. Make yourself at least “look” intelligent. 

 

I suggest doing your homework... trust me, do your homework. 

8 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Thanks for that. So when you said "we have a reputation of choosing the wrong QB" which group were you talking about?

You don’t want to end up like the “We” guy. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Torrey

[The Process]

4 hours ago, Torrey said:

You need to educate yourself. Make yourself at least “look” intelligent. 

 

I suggest doing your homework... trust me, do your homework. 

You don’t want to end up like the “We” guy. 

Sometimes there is a tendency to read something into a text, (or message board response in this case), that may be misconstrued. So I'll assume you didn't intend to come off like a pompous ass.

[Bubba Gump]

Only one Josh I care about, and he ain't Jewish. 

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's pretty well established that during the season, the back up QB's job is to run the scout team with the backups, to prepare the D for the coming week.

The backup gets few if any reps with the offensive starters.

 

Now this isn't my circus - I'm not the one trying to claim it's "splitting hairs" to think Mahomes didn't "beat out" Alex Smith.  That's your claim, and you get the burden of proof.

 

Mahomes was clearly drafted to be the future.  You don't trade up in the 1st for a guy you intend to park indefinitely on the bench.  But given the above well-known fact of NFL life in-season, and given Alex Smith's performance last season, yeah, it's kind of a stretch to think Mahomes demonstrated superior performance to Smith in any apples-to-apples sense of how the term is usually used.

 

 

Yea Mahomes did not beat out Smith. What he obviously did do is demonstrate a level of play that meant they were comfortable taking their shot with him.  They could have kept Smith and had a camp battle.... but then they'd have failed to maximise Smith's trade value. It was a calculated gamble based on the opportunity that presented itself. It was not a beating out.  

[SoTier]

17 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Allen is from Firebaugh California... a farm town... he is a country boy

 

So?

 

12 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

You need to understand that there are different parts to California Northern California especially where Josh and me are from is dairy country there are no surfer kid in dairy

Country us farmboys understand the meaning of hard work and long before we actually even go to school as far as the injuries one injury does not equal another a broken clavicle will completely heal and never be heard from again while concussions are a different matter

 

Then there is the minor matter of the fact that he played for the University of Wyoming where the temperature gets below 20 easy just like Buffalo

 

Oh, please, save the country boy bs for the next country song you croon.  I grew up on a farm, have lived in predominantly rural areas for the last twenty years, and currently still live in a small city in a predominantly rural county,   I have also lived in inner city Buffalo as well as suburbia at various times in my life, so I can say from experience that rural living doesn't automatically impart a better work ethic or moral superiority.  Many of the problems that plague urban America afflict rural areas as well, including poverty, drug addiction, child/sex abuse, violent crime, etc, because people are people.  In rural areas there's less because there's fewer people, not because the people are somehow "better".  People are people no matter where they live.

 

As for Allen going to Wyoming for college instead of staying in Cali, that was because he wasn't offered a scholarship elsewhere.  He got no offers from colleges and had to go to junior college.  You may think that that's a positive but when you take off your Bills-colored glasses, you have to ask why no colleges were interested in this kid with all this supposedly great talent when so many other kids with lesser arms and less physical potential were fielding multiple collegiate offers ... including Josh Rosen.

Edited July 30, 2018 by SoTier

[Epstein's Mother]

10 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Never have understood the accolades Reid gets

 

You clearly have not seen his punt, pass and kick footage.

[DCOrange]

10 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

If what Coaches and GMs said was true - that evaluation is based overwhelmingly on game film, not the Combine, then Allen would have never been selected at #7. 

 

Of course some fans wanted Rosen, it’s logical that they would. Josh Allen is a Bill now so of course the only narrative one can parrot is unwavering support. 

 

Oh well, I hope Rosen stinks and Allen is good. Hope Mahomes and Watson stink too. The Bills passed on a few productive QBs to trade up for a guy that had 17 TDs his last year in college. 

That's not really true at all. It all depends on what you're looking for in game film. On his film, Allen showed all of the physical traits that trait-based scouts would love to have in a QB. The results weren't there consistently, but the physical abilities were very apparent. I imagine that scouts that liked Allen watched his film and thought "Wow, if we can clean up ______ and ______, this kid could be amazing."

[oldmanfan]

30 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

That's not really true at all. It all depends on what you're looking for in game film. On his film, Allen showed all of the physical traits that trait-based scouts would love to have in a QB. The results weren't there consistently, but the physical abilities were very apparent. I imagine that scouts that liked Allen watched his film and thought "Wow, if we can clean up ______ and ______, this kid could be amazing."

They did go out and scout him.  Wasn't there a story about how they almost got killed in the plane ride coming back?

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

So?

 

 

Oh, please, save the country boy bs for the next country song you croon.  I grew up on a farm, have lived in predominantly rural areas for the last twenty years, and currently still live in a small city in a predominantly rural county,   I have also lived in inner city Buffalo as well as suburbia at various times in my life, so I can say from experience that rural living doesn't automatically impart a better work ethic or moral superiority.  Many of the problems that plague urban America afflict rural areas as well, including poverty, drug addiction, child/sex abuse, violent crime, etc, because people are people.  In rural areas there's less because there's fewer people, not because the people are somehow "better".  People are people no matter where they live.

 

As for Allen going to Wyoming for college instead of staying in Cali, that was because he wasn't offered a scholarship elsewhere.  He got no offers from colleges and had to go to junior college.  You may think that that's a positive but when you take off your Bills-colored glasses, you have to ask why no colleges were interested in this kid with all this supposedly great talent when so many other kids with lesser arms and less physical potential were fielding multiple collegiate offers ... including Josh Rosen.

Lol

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

As for Allen going to Wyoming for college instead of staying in Cali, that was because he wasn't offered a scholarship elsewhere.  He got no offers from colleges and had to go to junior college.  You may think that that's a positive but when you take off your Bills-colored glasses, you have to ask why no colleges were interested in this kid with all this supposedly great talent when so many other kids with lesser arms and less physical potential were fielding multiple collegiate offers ... including Josh Rosen.

 

You don't think the fact that Josh Allen was 6'3" and 180 lbs when he graduated HS may have had something to do with it?  He wasn't a physical specimen with a big arm and sky-high physical potential then, so he didn't draw the interest due to a big guy with a big arm and big physical potential.  Because he wasn't.

 

There's also the HS he played at.  Fact that even Zeke Elliot had slower recruiting and fewer offers than you might think an RB with his chops would have drawn, due to playing at a small college prep school in St Louis instead of a big "football powerhouse" school in Texas etc.   College recruiters simply did not have Firebaugh on their circuit, any more than they had John Burroughs School.  (Next RB out of there way less talented than Zeke, but got way more looks.)

 

You're right on about the "rural living doesn't automatically impart a better work ethic", but by all accounts Allen's folks are hard workers and expected their boys to pitch in.  Right on too rural areas are awful, awful for drug addiction and child abuse, in large part due to lack of opportunity and poverty.  Farming still relatively prosperous in Fresno County though.  Not like the gutted heartland here.