Early indications: The Bills will actually have a modern offense ?!

[JohnC]

46 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You only post about Tyrod anyways. It’s really kind of weird. You got called out for it 3 or 4 times this week!! This thread was on the design of Daboll’s offense and you started talking about what a relief it was that Nate was a passing QB. Not sure what that has to do with the design of the offense? Also not sure that a guy that was 24 of 49 for 252, 2 TDs and 5 INTs qualifies as a “passing QB.”

Putting aside the discussion over individual players what I would like to see from this organization is stability in the coaching ranks. The coaching change on defense from the Schwartz to Buddy was dramatic.  Again, without discussing the talent on offense the repeated changes from Hackett, Roman and Dennison and their different systems not only didn't promote the talent on the roster it accentuated its weaknesses. 

 

I'm not a believer in a particular system because a variety of systems work in this league. One of the primary factors keeping this franchise mired in mediocrity is this repeated lurching back and forth with different systems. What McDermott has done mostly on defense is install a system and bring in players to fit that system. It seems that this offseason he has concentrated more on the defensive side of the ball to bring in players to match what he wants to run. Without question the offense is behind in the installation process compared to the defense. But with some coaching stability on that side of the ball I foresee the offense having a direction to build on. 

 

My sense of Dabol is that he isn't wedded to a system. I see him having a more eclectic approach toward running an offense. The longer he stays with the organization the more he can add on to his base offense. What this team doesn't need is for him to shuffle off after a short stint. 

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

Yawn 

Funny I’m “called out” by the Taylor fans.  

 

I’ve spoken to what I’ve seen on film and read on line. 

 

Its camp where players are learning the offense and  AJ and NP are taking the lions share with the ones and JA gets a smaller portion with them.  

 

Its up to McDermott and co who stays and goes.  

 

Not you or me.  

 

I thought you were going to stop posting.

[Kirby Jackson]

52 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Putting aside the discussion over individual players what I would like to see from this organization is stability in the coaching ranks. The coaching change on defense from the Schwartz to Buddy was dramatic.  Again, without discussing the talent on offense the repeated changes from Hackett, Roman and Dennison and their different systems not only didn't promote the talent on the roster it accentuated its weaknesses. 

 

I'm not a believer in a particular system because a variety of systems work in this league. One of the primary factors keeping this franchise mired in mediocrity is this repeated lurching back and forth with different systems. What McDermott has done mostly on defense is install a system and bring in players to fit that system. It seems that this offseason he has concentrated more on the defensive side of the ball to bring in players to match what he wants to run. Without question the offense is behind in the installation process compared to the defense. But with some coaching stability on that side of the ball I foresee the offense having a direction to build on. 

 

My sense of Dabol is that he isn't wedded to a system. I see him having a more eclectic approach toward running an offense. The longer he stays with the organization the more he can add on to his base offense. What this team doesn't need is for him to shuffle off after a short stint. 

I’m a fan of the Daboll hire because I think he will work to his talent. My concern is that the OL and pass catchers aren’t talented. They handed him spam and asked him to win a James Beard award. If the Bills are patient with him he is going to be an asset (until he gets a HC job).

 

I think that Frazier is a really good coach as well. It looked like he had a shot at that Colts job. If the defense has another good year he may be interviewing again next year. I’d love to keep that group (with some position coach upgrades) in tact.

[GunnerBill]

I would like people to pump the breaks a bit on Daboll at this stage. A year ago there was mass excitement on TBD about Dennison's scheme "proven in this league" and a "good fit for Tyrod 'cos it has bootlegs and play action and moves the pocket".  Even Erik Turner and the Cover 1 guys who I think do a terrific job were saying that. There were some of us then saying "errr I don't see it. Dennison runs a zone scheme - we have an o-line that has done some zone but has had more success running a power scheme and expecting his QB to run precision timing 3 step and 5 step drop quick hitters is a critical part of the offense and that is not Tyrod's strength."  Those of us expressing that opinion were accused of being negative and the "haters" term was thrown about quite liberally.  

 

Then when Dennison's scheme struggled the same people who thought it would be a good fit suddenly rounded on Rick Dennison like it was his fault. You don't hire Rick Dennison to run anything other than the scheme he has run or helped run everywhere he has been. He did not have the players in Buffalo to execute it - which should have been obvious from the start. The idea that Rick Dennison was the reason the offense struggled in 2017 is total baloney. The talent was not good and was a bad fit for the scheme that the Head Coach had chosen to run (by hiring Rick Dennison).  Dennison should actually get some credit because he made adjustments on the fly to get the run game going as the season went on. He was unable to do that in the passing game because to design a passing game that suited the Quarterback he was given would have pretty much meant scrapping the whole scheme and starting over. I'm not suggesting they should have kept Rick Dennison.  But it was not really his fault the offense failed in 2017.  It was as much McDermott's and the talent's fault.  

 

Daboll is clearly going to run things differently his scheme is more varied, more multiple, and more flexible than what we ran in 2017.  But Roman had multiple and flexible schemes too (though his run game and pass game never quite complemented each other) and the players said the playbook was too big, his gameplans too complex and they couldn't learn it all.  Hackett had a flexible offense with no clear scheme he was wedded to and sometimes it was so flexible it was hard to see any vision in what we were trying to achieve. 

 

The questions on offense for me are: Do we have the talent to execute the offense that Daboll draws up? He is drawing it up for his talent, but so did Greg Roman. He didn't run the same offense with Tyrod that he would have ran with Matt Cassel. I think the offense might be pretty bad this year.  And no doubt yet again that will have fans calling for the head of the OC. We need to get out of that habit and look at the talent. You can have the greatest scheme in the world... it will still require receivers running the right routes (we have two guys on the whole roster proven to be able to do this) linemen making their blocks (that unit remains a question mark) and Quarterbacks getting the ball where it needs to be (who knows?). 

 

 

[PaattMaann]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I would like people to pump the breaks a bit on Daboll at this stage. A year ago there was mass excitement on TBD about Dennison's scheme "proven in this league" and a "good fit for Tyrod 'cos it has bootlegs and play action and moves the pocket".  Even Erik Turner and the Cover 1 guys who I think do a terrific job were saying that. There were some of us then saying "errr I don't see it. Dennison runs a zone scheme - we have an o-line that has done some zone but has had more success running a power scheme and expecting his QB to run precision timing 3 step and 5 step drop quick hitters is a critical part of the offense and that is not Tyrod's strength."  Those of us expressing that opinion were accused of being negative and the "haters" term was thrown about quite liberally.  

 

Then when Dennison's scheme struggled the same people who thought it would be a good fit suddenly rounded on Rick Dennison like it was his fault. You don't hire Rick Dennison to run anything other than the scheme he has run or helped run everywhere he has been. He did not have the players in Buffalo to execute it - which should have been obvious from the start. The idea that Rick Dennison was the reason the offense struggled in 2017 is total baloney. The talent was not good and was a bad fit for the scheme that the Head Coach had chosen to run (by hiring Rick Dennison).  Dennison should actually get some credit because he made adjustments on the fly to get the run game going as the season went on. He was unable to do that in the passing game because to design a passing game that suited the Quarterback he was given would have pretty much meant scrapping the whole scheme and starting over. I'm not suggesting they should have kept Rick Dennison.  But it was not really his fault the offense failed in 2017.  It was as much McDermott's and the talent's fault.  

 

Daboll is clearly going to run things differently his scheme is more varied, more multiple, and more flexible than what we ran in 2017.  But Roman had multiple and flexible schemes too (though his run game and pass game never quite complemented each other) and the players said the playbook was too big, his gameplans too complex and they couldn't learn it all.  Hackett had a flexible offense with no clear scheme he was wedded to and sometimes it was so flexible it was hard to see any vision in what we were trying to achieve. 

 

The questions on offense for me are: Do we have the talent to execute the offense that Daboll draws up? He is drawing it up for his talent, but so did Greg Roman. He didn't run the same offense with Tyrod that he would have ran with Matt Cassel. I think the offense might be pretty bad this year.  And no doubt yet again that will have fans calling for the head of the OC. We need to get out of that habit and look at the talent. You can have the greatest scheme in the world... it will still require receivers running the right routes (we have two guys on the whole roster proven to be able to do this) linemen making their blocks (that unit remains a question mark) and Quarterbacks getting the ball where it needs to be (who knows?). 

 

 

 

This is a solid take. 

 

I remember Daboll saying that he was going to run a week to week offense built to take advantage of opponents weaknesses. I am sure that is why we see the varied looks thus far in camp, which is refreshing and inspires hope in me personally. 

 

As you say though, its a marriage of design/talent/execution and who knows what will happen. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

10 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I thought you were going to stop posting.

I said I was about ready to.   

 

I've decided to make a valid attempt to not respond to taunts.   

1 minute ago, PaattMaann said:

 

This is a solid take. 

 

I remember Daboll saying that he was going to run a week to week offense built to take advantage of opponents weaknesses. I am sure that is why we see the varied looks thus far in camp, which is refreshing and inspires hope in me personally. 

 

As you say though, its a marriage of design/talent/execution and who knows what will happen. 

 

Isn't that the Belichickian way?   Keep the opponents guessing. 

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, PaattMaann said:

 

This is a solid take. 

 

I remember Daboll saying that he was going to run a week to week offense built to take advantage of opponents weaknesses. I am sure that is why we see the varied looks thus far in camp, which is refreshing and inspires hope in me personally. 

 

As you say though, its a marriage of design/talent/execution and who knows what will happen. 

To piggyback on this, if it doesn’t work right away I think that talent and/or execution are more likely to be the issues. We may not see the results of Daboll’s offense for a while.

[PaattMaann]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

To piggyback on this, if it doesn’t work right away I think that talent and/or execution are more likely to be the issues. We may not see the results of Daboll’s offense for a while.

 

maybe even over a year. Which I think most of us are smart enough to understand. Year 2 of the rebuild. Many things are in place, just need to bring in some more offensive talent. 

 

I do think we will prove pundits wrong again though, regardless of how good or bad the offense is. I think this team, like last years, just has a dog mentality where they will fight you for the full game and many times that can trump talent/execution. That starts at the top. Its great to see. 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I would like people to pump the breaks a bit on Daboll at this stage. A year ago there was mass excitement on TBD about Dennison's scheme "proven in this league" and a "good fit for Tyrod 'cos it has bootlegs and play action and moves the pocket".  Even Erik Turner and the Cover 1 guys who I think do a terrific job were saying that. There were some of us then saying "errr I don't see it. Dennison runs a zone scheme - we have an o-line that has done some zone but has had more success running a power scheme and expecting his QB to run precision timing 3 step and 5 step drop quick hitters is a critical part of the offense and that is not Tyrod's strength."  Those of us expressing that opinion were accused of being negative and the "haters" term was thrown about quite liberally.  

 

Then when Dennison's scheme struggled the same people who thought it would be a good fit suddenly rounded on Rick Dennison like it was his fault. You don't hire Rick Dennison to run anything other than the scheme he has run or helped run everywhere he has been. He did not have the players in Buffalo to execute it - which should have been obvious from the start. The idea that Rick Dennison was the reason the offense struggled in 2017 is total baloney. The talent was not good and was a bad fit for the scheme that the Head Coach had chosen to run (by hiring Rick Dennison).  Dennison should actually get some credit because he made adjustments on the fly to get the run game going as the season went on. He was unable to do that in the passing game because to design a passing game that suited the Quarterback he was given would have pretty much meant scrapping the whole scheme and starting over. I'm not suggesting they should have kept Rick Dennison.  But it was not really his fault the offense failed in 2017.  It was as much McDermott's and the talent's fault.  

 

Daboll is clearly going to run things differently his scheme is more varied, more multiple, and more flexible than what we ran in 2017.  But Roman had multiple and flexible schemes too (though his run game and pass game never quite complemented each other) and the players said the playbook was too big, his gameplans too complex and they couldn't learn it all.  Hackett had a flexible offense with no clear scheme he was wedded to and sometimes it was so flexible it was hard to see any vision in what we were trying to achieve. 

 

The questions on offense for me are: Do we have the talent to execute the offense that Daboll draws up? He is drawing it up for his talent, but so did Greg Roman. He didn't run the same offense with Tyrod that he would have ran with Matt Cassel. I think the offense might be pretty bad this year.  And no doubt yet again that will have fans calling for the head of the OC. We need to get out of that habit and look at the talent. You can have the greatest scheme in the world... it will still require receivers running the right routes (we have two guys on the whole roster proven to be able to do this) linemen making their blocks (that unit remains a question mark) and Quarterbacks getting the ball where it needs to be (who knows?). 

 

 

Excellent analysis and post as usual. 

 

When McDermott took over it was with the intention of rebuilding the roster and also the organization. It was never going to be a quick fix project. That would be a fantasy. I still consider this a four year project. The team that McDermitt inherited was stripped with the emphasis directed toward the defense. Our big expenditures in the offseason were for Star, Murphy and Davis. Last year our defensive backfield was completely revamped.  It's certainly not surprising that a defensive coach starts his rebuild on the defensive side of the ball. 

 

As you noted the offense has a very shallow talent base. That is not going to be fixed in one or two years. It's going to take time. The key to successfully constructing an effective offense is getting a legitimate franchise qb. Hopefully, that acquisition was made with the drafting of Allen. Will the offense struggle this year? Probably so, because our OL and receiver corps are so bland. 

 

What I'm hoping to see from Dabol this year is adapting better to the talent he has to work with. Most coaches in the pros can do a reasonably good job working with talent. The better coaches can adjust to their roster limitations and adequately make it work. I'm not expecting miracles. I want to see Allen smartly handled and an offense that can be run competently.